On the Southern Literary Trail discussion

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I started this last week bc the audio became available from my library. I’m enjoying it.

The story of the grandmother mistreating her nurse verbally when she was older and cognitive skills had waned made me think. Did she have these thoughts inside her always or literally her mind was no longer her own?

I hope to start this one over the weekend - would love to have the audio, but my library did not offer it.

To say that this book has topical contemporary subject matter would be an understatement! Crime fiction is not my favorite genre, but this book packs a punch! I am listening to the audiobook, and it is quite well done.

I had wanted the audio Terry, but my library doesn't have it yet and i couldn't wait...lol! Who is the narrator - Joy himself?

Sandi, the reader is McLeod Andrews. I am not familiar with him, but I think he is quite good. I am deep into the book. His acting voices for many different characters seem pretty authentic to me, although I suppose, to someone from the area where this story takes place, they may seem somewhat generic. I couldn’t say about that. But his acting skill impresses me. His voice overs infuse the characters with life — emotive, anger-raised, contemplative, whining, expressing frustration or sometimes tearful, etc. He coughs out the words when the text describes it that way, and in one conversation a character almost whistles when describing something fast.

Not sure I have heard his narration of anything. I will keep an eye out for him tho.

I hadn’t either, Sandi. Turns out, McLeod Andrews has quite a catalog on Audible:

https://www.audible.com/search?search...

It makes sense. This actor has chops!

I found that the conversations were very authentic. I did the audio so I can’t reference the scene but remember thinking I could see myself or a family member using that turn of phrase. I grew up in east TN so some similarities to western NC.

Terry wrote: "I hadn’t either, Sandi. Turns out, McLeod Andrews has quite a catalog"

I agree, loved his narration of Joy's Where All Light Tends to Go which I listened to and read last month, and I see he's also part of the cast on JLB's Flags on the Bayou.
I'm next up in the hold queue so hopefully joining in soon.

Terry wrote: "I hadn’t either, Sandi. Turns out, McLeod Andrews has quite a catalog on Audible:

https://www.audible.com/search?search......"

Thanks Terry I will check that out.

I may have to listen to Where All Light Tends To Go, Catherine. Lori and Tom both gave good reviews.

I listened to Flags just prior, but didn’t realize that Andrews was one of the cast. I can’t remember the voices well enough to say what part he played. Do you know?

I know I’m not going to be able to read this with the group this month, but I am going to a virtual book discussion with Joy on the 19th. Looking forward to it.

Sue
How exciting! If you have time will you comment after the event to give us any “neat” tidbits he mentions?

How about the novel's epigraph, from Langston Hughes.

"Let us take a knife
and cut the world in two--
and see what worms are eating
at the rinds."

When I looked it up I found that it is the end of a very short poem called "Tired". Here are the first lines:

"I am so tired of waiting,
Aren't you,
For the world to become good
And beautiful and kind?"

Thank you, Cheryl, looking up now.

Oh, I like that Cheryl. Still waiting for my copy.

Take your time, Cathrine. I only just finished ATPH today, and with so many other book commitments I doubt I'll finish this for at least a week.

Laura - I thought about the epigraph when I came across the following in chapter one:

In a whole lot of ways, the young woman thought, pain had been passed down from one generation to the next, and that's what so many people never could understand unless it was their history, unless this was their story. For certain groups in America, trauma was a sort of inheritance.

I love that David Joy wrote that there are "certain groups", recognizing that there are more than one. Native and Black Americans have of course been the longest suffering groups in America. But at different points in our history, the targets have been immigrants from Ireland, Italy, and China; the Jews; and Catholics. Hating people that are "other" than you is not a uniquely American trait, but it's possible that we do it "better" than anywhere else in the world. (The only exception I can think of is the treatment of slaves in the West Indies.)

So, by looking at the experiences of all these groups, we can look at how these people have prevailed and use those lessons to strengthen our contemporary societal interactions with each other.

Cheryl
I asked you a question over in final section now that you’ve completed read. No rush nor the pressure to even answer.

@Laura - Our wires might be crossed my friend, because I haven't finished this read yet. It's ATPH that I just completed. I hate spoilers, so I'll have to wait to check your comment in the next week or so.

@Everyone - I jumped on tonight to ask if anyone else had looked up the artist mentioned in chapter 9 - Mel Chin, and his installation art piece "See-Saw"?

Coincidentally, the Welty At Home book club is currently covering stories / poems / music inspired by the assassination of Medgar Evers. So far, I can see Cawthorn being the type that Welty wrote about in this story. I'd also recommend Faulkner's "Dry September" as a related work for the motivation of these individuals.

Cheryl
I’m sure it’s my wires. I use the phone app more than home computer and it has glitches, that’s my story anyway😉

Thoughts on chapter nine and familial love bonds:

The moment when Vess realizes that she was "falling in love" with her granddaughter gave me chills. I have one child, 19 years old now, and I've had those epiphanous moments when he says or does something that takes my breath away. 🤯 🥰

If Vess had been asked to describe the way she felt right then, standing there in the kitchen listening to her granddaughter speak, she would've said it felt something like falling in love -- the butterflies in the stomach, the swimmy-headedness. She felt warm all over, but outside of that she couldn't really feel her body at all, as if she were just sort of floating there. She was swooning with pride. All of those feelings became too much right then. It was more than she could handle. She almost felt like crying.

Thoughts on chapter nine and the purpose and permanence of art:

David Joy must be really into art. He's already given us Mel Chin. Now I'm reading about Andy Goldsworthy. Does anyone have an opinion on whether art has to be a permanent fixture somewhere? I think I like Toya's explanation of what matters most is the impact of the artwork.

It's this beautiful idea of impermanence, right? What he's doing is very Eastern thinking... I have the same sort of comfortability with the work only existing as a physical piece for a very short period of time....
...what I did was force the people who needed to encounter the idea to engage with the work. I left them no choice. They had to face it no matter how uncomfortable it made them. I guess what I'm trying to say, what I'm trying to get at with all of this, is what lasts is the impact. The impact that work makes on the world, that's more important than the work itself. That's more important than the work lasting in any sort of physical sense. It's art as an instrument for social change.

I also love that graffiti was thrown into the discussion. I was in Atlanta last fall, and there are some very powerful pieces throughout the city. There are several companies that host tours. Here is an article from Access Atlanta, about taking a self-guided tour. https://www.accessatlanta.com/atlanta...

Just picked up my copy. Hope to start next day or two.

Happy to hear that, Cathrine!

I've just finished chapter 18, and am having one of those "I know I need to go to bed" moments. The plot is just so great, and I am fascinated that this novel was written by a youngish white man. I know that historically, there has been debate about whether someone can (or should) write about other sexes, races, religions, etc. I think that writers CAN do that IF they have true, personal knowledge of the experiences of "their others'. And I'm pleased to note that as individuals in society continue to get to know each other, we are producing writers with that true, personal knowledge.

A very good example of this person-to-person exchange is in chapter 18, where Toya lists of the music groups that she and Brad introduced each other to.

I just started this one yesterday and it's easily the best David Joy book that I've read. The conversation between Toya and the sheriff about the statue is magnificent!

My library copy has never been read. I'm the first; smells like it came out of a bookstore. Life's little pleasures. Starting today.

Cheryl, I just finished Ch 17 and it's getting to the I can't put this down now point.

Yes, I looked up Mel Chin.

"I guess what I'm trying to say, what I'm trying to get at with all of this, is what lasts is the impact. The impact that work makes on the world, that's more important than the work itself. That's more important than the work lasting in any sort of physical sense. It's art as an instrument for social change."

Interesting discussion which I was having with my sister the other day. She spent years doing micro pointillism art on wood, would stay up all night letting the wood grain direct her dots. Unfortunately she used Sharpie pens and turns out they're not so permanent after all. So much fading after all these years. Yes, it's a shame and a heart breaker if that's not what you intended, but I encouraged her to think of the journey of creating the work and the people she interacted with because of it through the years. I should perhaps share some quotes with her :)

I might be agreeing with you Tom that this is Joy's best work.

Chapter 19
"It was probably just some drunk who'd stopped to take a leak...Walking back to the house, he wrote the whole thing off."

No Ernie! Don't write the whole thing off. 😬

I didn't know when I first started reading Joy's other works that he is passionate about fishing, so didn't notice if it's in his other books, but fishing factors in a few times so far.
Doesn't Ron Rash have a thing about fish also?

@Cathrine - I'm surprised that chapter 19 hasn't sparked more discussion here. Getting Coggins's perspective is very valuable to a topic like this, and for those who already have his perspective, "hearing from" Toya and Vess is equally valuable. It reminds me of that saying that "reading will seriously damage your ignorance"!. Reading, movies, and other forms of art force us to participate in Atticus Finch's worldview, and truly walk in another person's shoes.

Did you happen to share this passage with your sister? If so, it would be interesting to know how she responded to it.

Cheryl I'm hoping we get into some more discussion in the final spoiler thread.
Tom mentioned the conversation between Toya and the sheriff about the statue and then there's the one between Coggin and his wife about racism. Hoping we can explore further.

I'm more than willing to discuss the conversations between Coggins and both Toya and Vess. It is conversations such as these that elevate this book from entertainment to art. Flannery O'Connor said that "Art never responds to the wish to make it democratic; it is not for everybody; it is only for those who are willing to undergo the effort needed to understand it." The conversation about the subtlety of racism does just what good art is supposed to do. It makes us think, and it makes us uncomfortable.
The question of whether Toya's projects were art was addressed by Bertolt Brecht when he said "Art is not a mirror held up to reality but a hammer with which to shape it."

@Cathrine and Tom - oh yes, this novel definitely requires more discussion. Tom's comment on subtle racism - I highlighted this passage in chapter 26, bc I think it's a nod to how Latino immigrants might feel at times:
"...in the waiting room, a Hispanic mother who didn't speak English with two young boys... [he] passed them and the woman averted her eyes as he glanced down..."

Joy's transition from the end of ch. 24 / part 1, to chs. 25 and 26 / part 2 is magnificent. It's truly one of the best developments I've ever experienced in literature or cinema. (In cinema I think of Saw 1, and Game of Thrones when the Night King is defeated.) We will definitely have to talk about that on the FI thread.

I finished late this afternoon and will head over the FI thread.

Because the Welty At Home group is doing a series on Medgar Evers, I am discovering a lot of parallels between those discussions and this David Joy read.

In the WAH group, last week we covered "Micah" by Margaret Walker and "Only a Pawn in Their Game" by Bob Dylan. For Dylan's song, I see Willy Dean as the exact person he is singing about. Also related could be some of what Silas Crane said to Leah:

"You can be proud of where you come from and not proud of everything that history entails. That's what so many of these people don't seem to be able to wrap their heads around." p237

(Regarding his use of the confederate flag as a teenager and young man.) "Here's the thing, though. I mean, I grew up knowing the family history and all, but for me it wasn't ever about that. For me it was just a rebel flag. That's all it ever was, a middle-finger sort of thing... What I'm trying to say is kids attach themselves to al sorts of shit they don't fully understand just because they think it looks cool or tough or whatever.... So maybe the difference is I grew up and started reading books and realizing half that shit I'd been told wasn't right to start with. Maybe that was the biggest difference between me and them." pg237

"Them boys don't read books. Only history they know's whatever bullshit their daddy told them, and all he knows is whatever bullshit his daddy told him. They just use what they want and toss what they don't, same as these people on TV do with the Bible. It ain't never been about history, just like it ain't ever had a thing in the world to do with a man on a cross." pg238

Tom wrote: "The question of whether Toya's projects were art was addressed by Bertolt Brecht when he said "Art is not a mirror held up to reality but a hammer with which to shape it."

Tomorrow we start discussing Frank X. Walker's book of poems called Turn Me Loose: The Unghosting of Medgar Evers. When I read the very first poem today, I immediately thought of Toya's position that it is the impact of the art that matters. Which I then connect to the impact of the life someone has lived.

This poem is in Part 1: Dixie Suite. It is one of the many poems written from the voice of someone else - his wife Myrlie, his brother Charles, and De La Beckwith himself. Punctuation and spacing are as Walker wrote it.


What Kills Me (Myrlie Evers)

When people talk about the movement
as if it started in '64, it erases every
body who vanished on the way home
from work or school and is still listed

as missing. It erases the pile of recovered
bodies--some burnt, shot, dismembered,
some beaten just beyond recognition.
It mutes every unsung voice in Mississippi

that dared to speak up--fully understanding
the consequences. When people talk
about the movement as if it started in '64,
it erases his entire life's work.

It means he lived and died for nothing.
And that's worse than killing him again.

Family is now gone, and I am hoping to finish this one up within a few days.