SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

Is anyone else kind opf all Super Hero'd out. There are just so many movies and shows out there now.

No. Give me more.

I'm enjoying Brian Bendis' Powers Bureau. I think it's incredible how he and Oeming have kept that book fresh all these years. As long as things are kept interesting I'll enjoy super hero stories.

No. Like everything else there are good and bad installments of stuff, and there's still plenty of good stuff to mine. I've been watching SF & F for nearly 45 years and still get excited when a new quality piece of work shows up.

Arrow and Flash are bringing the awesome every week. Captain America: The Winter Soldier was distilled greatness, Big Hero 6 was terrific and I'm ready to revisit with The Avengers.

Yep. Completely jaded with the whole superhero genre. I also believe, as far as the film media goes, that the genre is choking funding for other science fiction projects because studios are risk averse. They're guaranteed to make a profit as people flock to movies with 99% action and 1% plot.

I thought The Winter Soldier was tedious. It was 2+ hours of fist fights and people emulating The A-Team level of marksmanship whenever a gun was fired.

I can't say that I'm sick of superhero movies, but it's not an automatic thing for me to see the pictures in the genre anymore. We were kind of starved for choice for a very long time. That's still true to some extent, depending on one's level of fandom, but I'm more or less content with the number of them being released these days.

Not even a little bit. Been a Marvel fan all my life and am happy to see the company thriving so much.

If anything, I want more superhero movies, but of a different brand than Marvel is putting out. Say Kick-Ass or Super, for example.

I vote keep 'em comin'. Some are gonna be bad, but that's true with all types of stories.

Neal wrote: "I thought The Winter Soldier was tedious. It was 2+ hours of fist fights and people emulating The A-Team level of marksmanship whenever a gun was fired. "

You must have seen a different movie than the rest of us.

"A-Team level of marksmanship"? Seriously? It was actually the opposite. I haven't seen so many people get shot during a superhero film since the first Captain America.

Tannera wrote: "Tommy, not to sound like a prude (which I'm not), Kick Ass had potential but the excessive use of swear words ruined the plots for me. I'd like to see different brands also, and yes, some of the fu..."

Anything from Mark Millar is going to be crass and lowbrow. That's just who he is.

I'd love to see Ms. Marvel adapted for the big screen. Even if just to see all the cranial explosions from the talking heads at Fox News.

Tannera wrote: "Tommy, not to sound like a prude (which I'm not), Kick Ass had potential but the excessive use of swear words ruined the plots for me. I'd like to see different brands also, and yes, some of the fu..."

I can't say that I agree that it ruined it for me, but that's totally understandable.

And, yes, as Trike said, anything by Millar is gonna be similar. I like him a lot, but I think he's also one of the comic writers I criticize the most haha.

Millar also hates comic book fans. He's said so out loud and has even put it in his books. I can only assume people read his stuff because they are secret masochists with inferiority complexes who like being taken advantage of by a cynic.

Trike wrote: "Millar also hates comic book fans. He's said so out loud and has even put it in his books. I can only assume people read his stuff because they are secret masochists with inferiority complexes who ..."

In his defense, many comic book fans are pretty pretentious. I myself have poked fun at certain types of comic fans. I knew a guy in a metal band, won't namedrop suffice it to say they weren't exactly playing garage shows, and he would go on and on about how crappy metal fans were. Loved the medium, hated most other people who loved the same medium. Though, not as openly as Millar haha.

I generally like superhero movies but prefer the ones that show also the more human, normal side of them (if not turned to some syrupy sad sack story, like in SPIDERMAN). I definitely like it when humor is put in them (like in GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY). However, what I like best are superheroes without flashy costumes who try to look and act as normal as possible and use their powers sparingly, using their brains rather than their brawns to solve problems.

Tannera wrote: "Michel, Black Widow may fit that description (I don't consider the black uniform flashy, but others might). Definately Bruce Banner and Tony Stark when not in uniform. Nick Fury uses his brain and ..."

I agree.

See also Chronicle.

I'm enjoying the TV shows more than the movies. I'm watching The Flash and Arrow nowadays which are fun.. loved The Flash's latest episode..
I watch the movies that get high ratings, though not really looking forward to the next Avengers movie, seems more like the Transformers to me.

For me I'm waiting for specific movies so I don't feel as overwhelmed.

After going for so long with crap superhero movies, I'm glad that some studios have finally figured out how to make good ones. Being a huge comic book fan, I'm enjoying this very much.

Part of it, I suspect, is that the new image-producing technology for live-action movies has just recently caught up with the comic books in being able to depict superpowers believably.

I also believe, as far as the film media goes, that the genre is choking funding for other science fiction projects because studios are risk ..."

That's how I feel two. It seems like so much Hollywood budget is to just this genre and leaving the rest of sci-fi to suffer.
Like the new fantastic four is going to redo their origins, just like so many spider man, superman, and batman movies spend half the movie just redoing retelling their origins.
I do like some of the shows and I like the way Gotham is dedicating time to the villains orgins. Especially since Batman who has some many good ones.
However mentioned Ms. Marvel would love to see Moduk used. Has he been used in Captain America movie yet. Always liked him think he was against her quite a bit too.

I do think that there are way too many Spiderman, Batman and Superman remakes. It's as if the studios just keep on rehashing the same things over and over again.

I will make an exception for Batman Begins, which I thought was rather good, but the endless Spiderman/Superman remakes seem endless.

That's what made the Marvel Cinematic Universe so special: they had to reach deep and really make something good because they couldn't just coast on name recognition.

People will line up to see Batman, Superman and Spider-man simply because of the name. They had to be convinced to see Iron Man, Thor, Captain America and Guardians.

Also, the fact that no one has ever tied together a series of movies into one cohesive narrative makes the MCU stand out.

We don't go to see movies in the theatre very often, and I'm pretty much a comics virgin. I have a vague idea of the genesis of Superman/Batman/the Avengers etc., but no real stake in how they're portrayed. My husband and I are often in the mood for action movies with lots of explosions on the weekend, so it's nice that there's a choice.

I don't necessarily think that it's a great thing for the 'art' of movies- it seems that franchises are the way to go now, and studios see them (apparently rightfully) as endless money-makers.

I would love to see Peter Clines' Ex-Heroes onscreen- I like his superheroes, and they seem like they'd be a lot of fun on screen. I'd probably prefer it as a miniseries, but I'd watch either way.

I think Joss Whedon getting linked to the "Avengers" was a great thing. Now, I'm pleased he is leaving the universe to make more movies, or whatever.

I like "The Flash" and "Arrow." I enjoy how different the tones of two shows are, that take place in the same universe.

I've read Ex-Purgatory by Peter Clines, which is #4 in the series. I have #1, but I haven't gotten around to reading it. I'd enjoy that as a movie!

James wrote: "After going for so long with crap superhero movies, I'm glad that some studios have finally figured out how to make good ones. Being a huge comic book fan, I'm enjoying this very much."
fully agree. I have been a comic fan since the 50's and was disappointed when some shows were made that didn't follow the "correct" story.
I am really enjoying the way many of the marvel movies interrelate

ps One of my dislikes is when a fav book is made into a bad movie. eg Enders game!!! so disappointing.

Jen wrote: "We don't go to see movies in the theatre very often, and I'm pretty much a comics virgin. I have a vague idea of the genesis of Superman/Batman/the Avengers etc., but no real stake in how they're p..."

I would love it if the Ex-Heroes series were brought either to the big or small screen. Seeing Mighty Dragon and Cerberus lay waste would be awesome and Legion could make for a very memorable villain.

James wrote: "I would love it if the Ex-Heroes series were brought either to the big or small screen. Seeing Mighty Dragon and Cerberus lay waste would be awesome and Legion could make for a very memorable villain. "

There's also a YA novel called Sidekicks that would make a good superhero film.

Andy wrote: "Is anyone else kind opf all Super Hero'd out. There are just so many movies and shows out there now."

Abso-FREAKIN-Lutely!


On top of that, how many more shows are they going to come out with that's basically using the x-men 'mutant power' idea. My god, there's been about a dozen, I think.

It really all depends on what super heroes.

I'm not super hero'd out yet, to a certain degree. Things I don't want to see are more X-Men movies (even though I know they're coming) and the TV show Heroes returning.

Things like Titans (Teen Titans live action) and Deadpool excite me.

The Flash is a fun show to watch because of the writing. It's done in a manner that I feel keeps you wanting to guess at what's going to happen next, even if it appears it's recently tipped its biggest hand.

Which ones?

I thought I was a little super-heroed out, but then I saw Wonder Woman in the new Superman v. Batman movie trailer and I was back in love again. Here's my list of the best super hero movies. Tell me what you think.

The Crow. This is a cool, atmospheric, gut-wrenching flick with a couple of genuinely creepy villains. Aside from the language, it’s aged remarkably well. Brandon Lee is a whole lot seedier—and more androgynous—than your usual superhero, but he gets the job done.

Kick-Ass. Chloe Moretz steals this movie and sells it to a band of pirates. She’s so cute and cuddly that you want to console her for the tragic loss of her mother—and maybe she’ll let you, just as soon as she finishes destroying the faces of a dozen local mobsters. I know there are other fine actors in this one (Nicholas Cage? Lillian Gish?), but I can’t quite recall their names. Moretz is that good.

Blade. Awesomest opening sequence ever (dancing vampires! blood from the sprinklers!) The rest of the movie is almost as good, and comes complete with Kris Kristofferson, guns, blades, fast cars, and the crackling of vertebrae as Blade prepares to dismember another set of bloodsuckers. And you can tell you’re watching something hip and intelligent by the way the clouds go scudding by in fast-motion, so hey—this movie might actually be good for you.

The 13th Warrior. Because there’s no better superhero than Beowulf, especially as embodied by nine-foot-tall Vladimir Kulich. And because Neanderthal cannibals have no place in the modern world anyway. (Well, maybe in Louisiana. But nowhere else.)

Spiderman II. Goofy, thrilling, sexy, spectacular. Does everything right.

The Incredibles. Brad Bird’s animated take on the genre is hilarious, ingeniously staged, and packed with cool retro design details. And it still manages to bring a surprising amount of urgency and crunchiness to the action scenes.

The Matrix. The sequels were hard to take seriously, but the first in the series was a freaky, thoroughly satisfying film. Keanu Reeves is sleek and inscrutable, and Carrie-Ann Moss in form-fitted leather is a fetching blend of viciousness and vulnerability.

Unbreakable. A personal favorite. Slow, somber, and low-key, this is an attempt to link our superhero fantasies to some underlying socio-historical truth. It’s a failed attempt, because superheroes don’t actually exist. But Bruce Willis is good (and great) nonetheless.

The Avengers Resistance is futile. This is the best collection of bicuspids in the universe. Also: Action. Loud noises. A zillion dollars. Hulk meets Loki. You get the idea.

The Seventh Seal. Max von Sydow’s knight doesn’t have bulging muscles or web-slinging capabilities, but he gamely battles Death anyway on behalf of his companions. Who wins? Better brush up on your history of the Plague….

Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back. A Jedi knight is the long ago past’s equivalent of an X-Man. And this was a terrific movie, regardless of the mess the series later became.

Watchmen. Shower twice after watching. Dirty, disjointed, and altogether rotten. Smashing Pumpkins-scored trailer may be the best ever.

The Dark Knight Rises. Okay, I give in. I’m not a Batman fanatic, and I’d put this one fairly low on my “best of” list, but this third installment tells an ambitious and engrossing story. Not perfect, but compelling—and with what certainly appeared to be a real ending.

Conan the Barbarian. I’m not a huge Schwarzenegger fan, but this flick’s solemn fascist preachments and utter commitment to its world makes it a must-see. It’s got a wonderful sound track, and Arnold in war paint is a wonder to behold.

XMen 2. This is Wolverine’s show, and he’s awesome in it—a rampaging ball of smoldering fury. Lots of cool background stuff as well, including student hijinks at Professor Xavier’s school for mutants.

Terminator II. Yes—because now the Terminegger is a superhero bent on protecting human life—and fighting one of the nastiest, toughest, and downright shiniest antagonists in filmdom. True, Arnold is not human in this one, which might disqualify him in some eyes—but hey, at least he’s trying. You might want to watch this one again for Linda Hamilton. Sometimes overlooked in favor of the Schwarzenegger star turn, Hamilton’s Sara Connor is fascinatingly dangerous and strung out in T2. There’s a couple of false moves in this flick. A little too much tacked-on emotion at the end, but it’s still an effective thriller 20+ years later. Alternate: Blade Runner. With the same caveat.

I love your list Bruce, thinking about if you missed any

Neal wrote: "I thought The Winter Soldier was tedious. It was 2+ hours of fist fights and people emulating The A-Team level of marksmanship whenever a gun was fired."

I actually found (view spoiler)[the concept of S.H.I.E.L.D. being so completely and totally overrun from within pathetic. Infiltrations make things interesting, but that went far beyond plausible. (hide spoiler)]

Hey thanks Kateb! I'm sure I did. Guardians of the Galaxy maybe? I liked that one a lot. Some people really dig the old "Superman" movies, but I was never a fan.

I enjoyed the recent Daredevil series. It was nice to see a superhero who wasn't all that super and didn't have the money to equip himself with tons of gadgets.

Joe wrote: "Neal wrote: "I thought The Winter Soldier was tedious. It was 2+ hours of fist fights and people emulating The A-Team level of marksmanship whenever a gun was fired."

I actually found [spoilers re..."

THAT is the aspect you think is implausible? o.O

I say this all the time -- and in fact said it in another thread just the other day -- this is part of what I call the Motorcycle Riding Monkey Effect: some small thing of an otherwise fanciful story bugs people unreasonably, but they let all this other ridiculous stuff go. (I worked with a movie critic who hated Jumanji because of the "plastic-looking spiders", so I said to him, "But the motorcyle-ridin' monkeys were okay?")

We all have our triggers and that button gets pushed for different reasons for different people, so I'm always interested to see where that limit is. But this one is weird for me, because inflitrations like that have happened in real life, so it's not like that part is much of a stretch.

Back in the 70's many suspect groups were so heavily infiltrated by the FBI that there were more agents than members in many of them.

Trike wrote: "We all have our triggers and that button gets pushed for different reasons for different people, so I'm always interested to see where that limit is."

I think there are at least three flavors of Suspension of Disbelief--or the Suspension of the Suspension of Disbelief, if you will. The first is the Bad Effect Effect, the second is the Logic Bomb, and the third is the Deus Ex Bad Writing.

The Bad Effect Effect has to do with something on the screen just not measuring up to one's expectations: one sees the wires holding up the UFO, the blood is the wrong shade of red, the forced perspective shot is obvious enough that you realize the hobbits are normal-sized actors and you have to blink a few times to see the image you're "supposed" to see. Etc.

The Logic Bomb is when something doesn't add up for you. This can be pretty subjective sometimes. The logic of S.H.I.E.L.D. being broadly and completely infiltrated by H.Y.D.R.A. since its inception--an agency of super-powered/equipped/trained spies so inept that it fails to detect a mole, let alone a number of them that represents a significant percentage of the agency--is a logic bomb. Then the logic being that the solution is that all those agents should go off an become members of mundane, real-world, apparently less easily infiltrated agencies... that doesn't really jibe.

The third, Deus Ex Bad Writing, is when the storytelling just doesn't work. Maybe the problem is cliched ideas, a formulaic plot point, a simple failure to make the characters relatable. For one reason or another, the story just fails to draw the audience in.

Of course, all those these are ultimately subjective to one degree or another. If one goes to the theater to see a play, one has to give the effects a bit more of break--the flash of lightning & thunder effect is clearly a strobe and some guy off-stage with a sheet of metal. Logic bombs can occur to some people and not others. Bad writing is (or isn't) appreciated by people on a personal aesthetic level.

For instance, a friend of mine was completely thrown out of The Dark Knight Rises by the version of Batmobile in that film, and he has a good point. There were aspects of all three Suspension of the Suspension of Disbelief in his argument. The thing jumps from rooftop to rooftop; for a character who spends the first half of the movie learning to be a ninja, its got the stealth value of a parade float; and not a lot of folks can relate to driving a vehicle like that, which is part of the whole point in the giving Batman a car in the first place.

Still, that didn't throw me out of the movie in particular. I see his points, though, and I can't disagree with them.

Trike wrote: "inflitrations like that have happened in real life, so it's not like that part is much of a stretch"

(view spoiler)[As I said, they do, but not to the extent they did in that movie. This was not a "minor" thing. The US Gov't turning out to be completely full of ISIS agents would, I hope, make you wonder how the hell that could possibly happen. That there might be a few HYDRA agents or sympathizers throwing monkey-wrenches into SHIELD's plans and operations would make perfect sense and have been a great development. That nearly half of SHIELD turned out to be HYDRA agents, particularly ones who worked so closely with Fury and Captain America, just comes across as completely nonsensical. If you just called them Nazis instead of HYDRA agents, would it make it easier to see how ridiculous it is? (hide spoiler)]

Speaking of favourite Super Heroes:

Herbie Popnecker aka The Fat Fury!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbie_...

Loved his comics.

@Joe

Go watch Agents of Shield it's become by second favorite super hero themed show after Gotham on Tv right now.

(view spoiler)[ This really helped make it a lot more believable it's not that they got infiltrated it's that they were founded by HYDRA agents, also HYDRA IS LITERALLY NAZIS (hide spoiler)]

I'm enjoying season 1 of Jessica Jones. She's a great character. Excellent villain too.

Tannera wrote: " writers have trouble finding original actions scenes."

Whatchoo talkin' 'bout, Willis?

The set pieces in Captain America: The Winter Soldier were completely original, inventive action scenes. The fight in the elevator, the scenes on the Lemurian Star and the highway showdown with Bucky were incredible.

The Hulkbuster scene from Avengers 2 was the best example of that kind of widescreen epic battle between two titans ever filmed. The ultimate battle between Thor and Malekith in Thor: The Dark World was incredibly inventive, with them jumping through portals to different worlds and Mjolnir trying to find Thor, but the doppelganger fight was equally creative. The "keep away" bit in Guardians of the Galaxy was great fun and nothing like it has been seen in any superhero movie.

Bruce wrote: "Hey thanks Kateb! I'm sure I did. Guardians of the Galaxy maybe? I liked that one a lot. Some people really dig the old "Superman" movies, but I was never a fan."

definitely that one.

Gary's three flavors of Suspension of Disbelief-- I agree with these. Although some shows, if you suspend reality and believe the "rules" that are outlined in the story AND they stick to those rules, then I can immerse myself in the show.

I don't expect hero's shows to be "real" but a mutant I can take , an alien having super powers, but really some mutations are physically impossible unless something else is involved other than mutation.

John wrote: "I'm enjoying season 1 of Jessica Jones. She's a great character. Excellent villain too."

Hey John. Just watched the first episode last night. I agree: good stuff. Gritty and grimy, like a New York City-set show should be.

Was never hugely into the Super Hero thing in the first place. It holds little appeal to me.

Not burned out on superheroes, but think Marvel is at the point where they're just remaking the same couple movies over and over. To me Ant Man felt too much like iron Man and the second Avengers movie felt too much like the first. I get they found a formula that worked exceptionally well for them, but they don't have to stick to those formulas so closely.

Tannera wrote: "I love X-Men but most of the stories have been told. One that hasn't and would look great on film is a plot involving the Sentinels. That's a movie I want to see."

Maybe you're time traveling from an alternate future in which X-Men: Days of Future Past was never made. ;)