Tournament of Books discussion

Space to discuss the 2024 TOB play-in contender The Bee Sting by Paul Murray.

In general, I liked this book a good bit. It's not my favorite Franzen-ian family saga (Wellness was more my speed) but I wouldn't be upset if this had some legs.

I'm reading it now, and enjoying it (around 200 pages in.) I agree with reviews I've seen saying it's very baggy, and might have been better shorter, but the stories are interesting, so I'm along for the ride.

(I sure hope it has legs, I'll have invested so much time in it!)

The Imelda section was really good.

I have fingers and toes crossed for this novel because (a) I loved "Skippy Dies" and (b) I have limited visceral enthusiasm for several of the other shortlist offerings.

Kyle wrote: "The Imelda section was really good."

Really the stand-out section of the book. Murray had fun with it, too.

I was very frustrated by the ending. Can’t wait to discuss that part with others who’ve made it that far. (view spoiler)[ The way the story just stopped at the end without telling us what happened with the gun, etc. really annoyed me. It felt like a complete cop out, and not fair to readers who had slogged through so many pages beforehand. At first, I actually thought my book was missing some pages at the end! <\spoiler> (hide spoiler)]

Gahhh!! The ending!!! The ENDING!
Also, I *didn't* like the Imelda section [ducks]. The end really ramps up at an alarming pace. I have a lot of thoughts....many about PJ's sections and the heart palpitations therein induced. But while I think it really needed an edit, what a story!

I liked the opening Cass section best. As the novel went on, I started to get impatient with it. I have to admit, I skimmed through all the preaching, and by the end I was feeling a little manipulated. But Paul Murray sure can write. I picked this up immediately after finishing =The Auburn Conference= and a couple pages in remember thinking “now I’m in good hands.” Although, like I said, by the end I was revising that impression a bit.

Oh, good lord, that ending! Why, Paul, why?

I started out with high expectations, but somewhere along the line, this book turned into a slog. I never saw the humor except for the dialogue among Imelda’s group of friends, and the ending seemed like a huge cop out. I hope this makes it out of the play-in round and that the ToB discussions can restore my affection for the book.

Jan wrote: "I started out with high expectations, but somewhere along the line, this book turned into a slog. I never saw the humor except for the dialogue among Imelda’s group of friends, and the ending seeme..."

I'm with you Jan, I was not impressed by this.

I liked a lot of it, but there was a LOT more of it. Murray's a good writer but someone could have given him an editor.

I guess I'm still salty that Wellness, the other Family Tome, didn't make it in...

This is my fave so far. I didn't mind the ending. (view spoiler)[Maybe because I've decided WHAT the ending is. (hide spoiler)]

Eric Karl Anderson had some interesting theories on the ending here. The comments are worth reading too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rqf2X...

Yes to what Eric Karl Anderson said in that YouTube video. Exactly how I read that ending. So deeply sad.

But/and -I’m a fan. “Bee Sting” is one of my favorites this year.

Audra, would you share your thoughts on the ending? I would love to hear any theories you've got!

Dianah wrote: "Audra, would you share your thoughts on the ending? I would love to hear any theories you've got!"

I think the book ended answering the question it opened with.

Dianah wrote: "Audra, would you share your thoughts on the ending? I would love to hear any theories you've got!"
(view spoiler)[I think both the kids get shot (hide spoiler)]

Audra, omg!!! oh, I'm going to have to think about that! Wow!

Tim, what question did it open with? I don't have a copy of the book.

I don't know that this could be considered a spoiler, since it is the first page of the book, so ....

In the next town over, a man had killed his family. He'd nailed the doors shut so they couldn't get out; the neighbours heard them running through the rooms, screaming for mercy. When he had finished he turned the gun on himself.
Everyone was talking about it - about what kind of a man could do such a thing, about the secrets he must have had. Rumours swirled about affairs, addiction, hidden files on his computer.
Elaine just said she was surprised it didn't happen more often.

Exactly this, Tim.

The most hopeful ending was proposed by a friend who read the book and said, (view spoiler)[that given how Dickie failed to follow through with any decisive action in his life, there's no reason to think he'd be capable of pulling a trigger. (hide spoiler)]

Ah.... y'all are giving me much food for thought!

Alison wrote: "The most hopeful ending was proposed by a friend who read the book and said, [spoilers removed]"

This is the view I take. Dickie is hopeless with accomplishing hard/complex things, and I am hoping that carried through to the end.

I’m in the camp that thinks the ending is disappointing and a cop out.

Alison wrote: "The most hopeful ending was proposed by a friend who read the book and said, [spoilers removed]"

Yes! This was one of the comments in Eric’s video, which makes sense to me, and hints that the teaser in the first lines wasn’t true. (Which is actually a little annoying to me, that we were lied to in those lines, since it’s obviously just meant to create a dramatic opening. It could have been reworded, still dramatic, and truthful.)

“I was struck by one of the final things Cass mentions is 'grey squirrel'. Dickie and PJ can't bring themselves to kill them when Victor is away but instead set them free. They seem destined to die but in fact live. It's mentioned a few times how Dickie can't bring himself to hurt anything (although he does emotionally - himself, Willie, his family through deception) so I can't really see Dickie pulling the trigger. Rain, water, another potential flood all suggest new growth and a chance to begin anew. I'm going with a positive ending!“

Alison wrote: "The most hopeful ending was proposed by a friend who read the book ..."

That's a nice read, if you need to be hopeful. But I don't think that's how the story ends....

Tim wrote: "Alison wrote: "The most hopeful ending was proposed by a friend who read the book ..."

That's a nice read, if you need to be hopeful. But I don't think that's how the story ends...."

Nor do I. The ending is not only foreshadowed by the opening passage to which you've referred, but also by the vision that Imelda's psychic Aunt Rose has as she is dying.

I love a happy ending, and ... I don't think this one ends happily.

Risa wrote: "Tim wrote: "Alison wrote: "The most hopeful ending was proposed by a friend who read the book ..."

That's a nice read, if you need to be hopeful. But I don't think that's how the story ends. happily."

He must have been asked in an interview somewhere. I wonder if he didn’t elaborate because he thought the answer was obvious, or if with Dickie’s personality (per Alison’s comment and the Booktube comment) he was purposefully stopping to leave it open to interpretation.

Elizabeth wrote: "Risa wrote: "Tim wrote: "Alison wrote: "The most hopeful ending was proposed by a friend who read the book ..."

That's a nice read, if you need to be hopeful. But I don't think that's how the stor..."

Well, we've got two novels in this tournament ("Bee Sting" and "The Guest") that ended "ambiguously", and both endings seemed to bother and/or disappoint lots of readers. Neither ending bothered me, as I personally did not need more clarity than the authors provided. I saw the endings of both novels as an extension of the very messy lives that the characters had been living.

Risa totally agree. They're not tidy people or stories, why have tidy endings? Why suddenly have hopeful endings?

I've checked in on these comments at times, and appreciated all the different takes on the story, and particularly the ending. I actually liked that ambiguous ending. It allows you to envision whatever works for you as a result of reading the story! I also had tied it to the beginning information, but that didn't necessarily translate to automatically deciding the outcome.... just saw it as a way to show how that might have occurred to create such a scenario that makes others scratch their heads and wonder HOW and WHY such a thing could happen in a family.

Carmel wrote: "I actually liked that ambiguous ending. It allows you to envision whatever works for you as a result of reading the story!..."

Me too. And gives you the opportunity to change your mind about it over and over....

I just finished - really enjoyed it, including the rising action to the end. I'm not sure where I come down on where the book leaves the Barnes family yet. There are good arguments for tragedy or hope. As various characters converged on the woods, (view spoiler)[ I was thinking that Ryzsard and/or Big Mike might get caught in each others' crosshairs rather than Dickie being the one who pulls the trigger. But I thought that story line also wasn't neatly tied up, unless I missed something. Did the girlfriend get away with cash alone, or was she with Ryzsard?<\spoiler> (hide spoiler)]

Chrissy wrote: "I just finished - really enjoyed it, including the rising action to the end. I'm not sure where I come down on where the book leaves the Barnes family yet. There are good arguments for tragedy or h..."

(view spoiler)[ The former. She gets away alone. Big Mike and Ryzsard are goners. (view spoiler)[ (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

Risa wrote: Well, we've got two novels in this tournament ("Bee Sting" and "The Guest") that ended "ambiguously", and both endings seemed to bother and/or disappoint lots of readers. Neither ending bothered me, as I personally did not need more clarity than the authors provided. I saw the endings of both novels as an extension of the very messy lives that the characters had been living."

I found both of these books to be like when you are driving and slow down to witness the aftermath of a car crash. You can't look away from it and the bad decisions that caused the crash to happen. And just like that car crash you encounter while driving, neither book gives you closure.

I personally like The Guest more than this. I think the one point of view character works better with this kind of story. I spent the majority of my time with The Bee Sting wanting at least one of the characters to finally have some sense and not go into those woods at night in the middle of a storm.

Amanda wrote: "Risa wrote: Well, we've got two novels in this tournament ("Bee Sting" and "The Guest") that ended "ambiguously", and both endings seemed to bother and/or disappoint lots of readers. Neither ending..."

Ha! I get that. "The Bee Sting" = Parade of Bad Decisions. I very much liked both it and "The Guest". In a ToB year that, with a small handful of exceptions, has left me underwhelmed, these two were among the brightest spots for me.

Risa wrote: "Amanda wrote: "Risa wrote: Well, we've got two novels in this tournament ("Bee Sting" and "The Guest") that ended "ambiguously", and both endings seemed to bother and/or disappoint lots of readers...."

Agree plus Blackouts

Ok fine. This was going to get 3 stars from me, but after seeing this discussion of the ending (thanks for sharing that video analysis, Elizabeth), I've bumped it up to 3.5, which always gets rounded up to 4 stars.

I enjoyed the opening section from Cass's POV (a welcome relief after Skippy Dies not working for me), but then PJ's section, and some of Dickie's got into that similar territory of stuff that's just not for me.

It was longer than it needed to be and I would have preferred more time with the female characters, but the ending does make a lot of sense and I was pretty engaged for those last few scenes, so I think this ended up being slightly better than expected for my taste, and I'd be happy to see it take the play-in round.

Lauren wrote: "I enjoyed the opening section from Cass's POV"

Agreed; I thought that was the best part of the book, and I gradually lost patience with it as I went along. Not enough to quit it, though.

Lauren wrote: "Ok fine. This was going to get 3 stars from me, but after seeing this discussion of the ending (thanks for sharing that video analysis, Elizabeth), I've bumped it up to 3.5, which always gets round..."

Interesting comment about more time with female characters as I thought it was pretty equal.

Audra wrote: "Lauren wrote: "Ok fine. This was going to get 3 stars from me, but after seeing this discussion of the ending (thanks for sharing that video analysis, Elizabeth), I've bumped it up to 3.5, which al..."

Ha, yes. I wanted it to be less equal since the time with the male characters wasn't my favorite. ;) I think the way this author writes female characters works for me, but not male characters, especially boys/male teens. It will be helpful in deciding if I want to pick up his next book.

Lauren wrote: " I think the way this author writes female characters works for me, but not male characters, especially boys/male teens..."

Funny, for me he writes kids, especially boys, better than anyone else I've ever read. That's what blew me away about Skippy Dies too.

Same. The PJ sections were like being inside my teen boys' minds, and were absolutely terrifying/heartbreaking. The end of the first PJ section left me paralyzed.

Karen wrote: "Same. The PJ sections were like being inside my teen boys' minds, and were absolutely terrifying/heartbreaking. The end of the first PJ section left me paralyzed."

It was exactly the same for me. My child (almost 14) has been through a lot in the past year, and this felt so real I had a hard time continuing.

But I agree, Lauren, with how well he writes women. My favorite sections were Imelda’s and Cass’s.

Elizabeth wrote: " My favorite sections were Imelda’s and Cass’s...."

I loved Imelda's section. The writing was fantastic.

Well, what a fun poll this would make! My favorite sections were Imelda's and Dickie's, even though Dickie made me desperately sad.

I know that "The Bee Sting" was a hit for me because I am still thinking about all of these characters. (Ditto the characters from "Heaven & Earth Grocery Store" and Alex from "The Guest", and the mountain lion from "Open Throat" and Juan and Jan Gay from "Blackouts".)

Yes, I still spend a lot of time with the Bee folks.
Cass' crush was heartbreaking and hard to get through.

Nadine in California wrote: "Lauren wrote: " I think the way this author writes female characters works for me, but not male characters, especially boys/male teens..."

Funny, for me he writes kids, especially boys, better tha..."

Yes, I agree that he writes them "well"/accurately, but it's just not a good fit for me personally. ;)