Works of Thomas Hardy discussion

Show me again the time
When in the Junetide's prime
We flew by meads and mountains northerly! -
Yea, to such freshness, fairness, fulness, fineness, freeness,
Love lures life on.

Show me again the day
When from the sandy bay
We looked together upon the pestered sea! -
Yea, to such surging, swaying, sighing, swelling, shrinking,
Love lures life on.

Show me again the hour
When by the pinnacled tower
We eyed each other and feared futurity! -
Yea, to such bodings, broodings, beatings, blanchings, blessings,
Love lures life on.

Show me again just this:
The moment of that kiss
Away from the prancing folk, by the strawberry-tree! -
Yea, to such rashness, ratheness, rareness, ripeness, richness,
Love lures life on.

A poem from Moments of Vision and Miscellaneous Verses. It was written in 1898.

I never recalled reading this one because I think the alliteration would have remained in my memory. Perhaps others know better then me — does this Mozart symphony have a musical pattern that calls to mind alliteration?

John wrote: "I never recalled reading this one because I think the alliteration would have remained in my memory....does this Mozart symphony have a musical pattern that calls to mind alliteration?"

I listened to Movement 1 of Mozart's Symphony No 39 in E-flat major on youtube. It's very bold and exuberant. Several times during the beginning of the first movement, Mozart repeats two notes around ten times in succession on different parts of the scale. That brings to mind the two-syllable groups of five alliterated words. I enjoyed both the poem and the music!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0x_d...

OK - I’m hooked. I’ll be listening to Mozart this afternoon.

I will have to do some listening myself.

I just read a Listener's Club article about Mozart's symphony, and the part of the music that I mentioned earlier was described as "a persistent heartbeat that begins in the low strings and erupts in the full orchestra."

https://thelistenersclub.com/2021/01/...

I think this is the only poem Hardy wrote that states it was composed to or with a musical composition.

I have a problem comparing a poem to a sophisticated symphony, such as the ones Mozart was writing during the last few years of his life. Interestingly, Mozart wrote TWO symphonies in E-flat Major: Symphony No. 1 (K 16) and Symphony No. 39 (K 543).

Which one was Thomas Hardy referring to? He would have been 8 years old (1764) for the first one, which is not saying it wasn't wonderful and new: it was. But it was small in scale and intended for private music rooms. This really eliminates it as the one Thomas Hardy would have heard.

Symphony No. 39 in E-flat Major was finished in 1788. It was certainly a more ambitious and expansive in scope and style than his first symphony! It was designed for the large orchestral hall. By the time Mozart had written Symphony No. 39, the size of an orchestra would have more than doubled, yet still be small by modern standards. When heard by Hardy, the symphony would have probably had no more than 30 - 40 players.

Sym. No. 39 was described as being a "gently good-humored and mostly cloudless" composition. (Jan Swafford , in Mozart: The Reign of Love. How awkward to pick a small section of a symphony, without specifying WHICH movement, and declare your poem was evoking "Lines to a Movement in Mozart's E-flat Symphony"?

I know I will be stepping on toes here, and my apologies to all, but I would go so far as to declare Thomas Hardy's comparison of his poem to a grand Mozart symphony as pretentious!

Good question. I am not familiar enough with Mozart to know. But I will do some checking to see if there is anything out there that indicates which one.

Here is something, but it is only the first page. It does go into some detail, though.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/45272230

I even missed two other symphonies!

I will see if I can get access through my last university to JSTOR. I used to be able to open journals through Austin Seminary. It is too frustrating not to be able to read this entire article!!

I am quite familiar with Mozart, and have loved and even played a number of his pieces when I was younger. And I fought my way through Jan Swafford's 900 page biography of Mozart! But I obviously will have to read this article and seriously consider Connie's thoughts before drawing any conclusions!

It would be fun to know the answer, but he certainly was vague in his title....maybe he was challenging us because he was sitting there listening to the music and KNEW what he was describing, or maybe really he was just showing off!

I'll be curious what you find out, Lee. It sounds like we'll be going down some rabbit holes with this poem.

Since I was looking at the lines of five alliterated words, the first movement seemed to fit. But looking at the poem as a whole, the concept of a minuet (the third movement) fits better. A minuet is a slow, graceful, stately dance for two people, and does have repeated movements.

J.O. Bailey writes that the manuscript has "Minuet" for "Movement." "Critics have admired the technique of the poem: the parallel stanzas, each beginning 'Show me again' and continuing like a movement in a minuet, the alliteration in each fourth line, and the repeated theme, 'Love lures life on.'" He also writes that the poem seems to be about Hardy's courtship of Emma.

Poetry of Thomas Hardy: Handbook and Commentary by J.O. Bailey

Of course, we can just enjoy the poem for itself since the experts don't really seem sure which Mozart symphony Hardy was referring to.

This discussion has completely intrigued me about Mozart. I always just listened to jazz and blues. My favorites. But I will have to pipe in some Mozart here at home and sit back and see if I can absorb what Hardy wrote.

What an interesting choice John, and an interesting discussion so far too everyone!

Yes there are 4 Mozart symphonies in E♭ major: nos. 1, 19, 26 and 39. I agree with Lee that it wouldn't be #1, as that would be juvenilia (and I can't bring it to mind at all!)

By far the most famous is #39 K. 543, as that comprises one of the very famous final three. They were all written very quickly within 2 months (July and August 1788) and #40, called "The Great" (or the Great G minor) is the one that everyone knows! #41 is almost as popular; it's in C major and is called "The Jupiter". Some critics argue that these 3 symphonies should be regarded as a unified work.

The symphony preceding this one is called "The Prague", but sadly #39 doesn't have a name. I had wondered if perhaps I didn't know it but the first theme was instantly recognisable 😊 Like the other two which comprise the final three, it is often performed nowadays, so I suspect it also was in Thomas Hardy's time. He loved music and associated it with the years he spent in London, so perhaps this symphony was a favourite from there.

The alliteration stumped me, so I looked at two books of analyses I have of symphonies, which might have helped. One is Sixteen Symphonies by Bernard Shore. It's an excellent and detailed book, but which of Mozart's Symphonies did he chose to include? ... that's right, the Great C major, #40. Just missed by one 😃

There is an analysis of Mozart's symphony #39 in E♭ major K. 543 in the first volume of [book:The Symphony TWO VOLUMES Vol. 1 (One) Hayn to Dvorak Vol 2 (Two) Elgar to the Present day by Robert (editor) Simpson - (another indispensible book which is available as a Pelican). It's 5 pages, which I read carefully, as it goes through the form and orchestration, but has nothing I can relate to literary alliteration.

Thomas Hardy's words: "surging, swaying, sighing, swelling, shrinking" describes the orchestral music perfectly though 😊

And the key of E♭ major is often associated with bold, heroic music, although this is partly because of Beethoven. His "Eroica" Symphony, "Emperor" Concerto and Grand Sonata are all in the key of E♭ major. (Mozart had a powerful influence on the works of Beethoven.)

Sorry if this repeats anything in the links. As soon as I saw "permission to allow cookies" I stopped, as my computer is slow anyway, and Goodreads has fallen over a few times today already. It will do tomorrow as well, going by past history. 🙄

Linking now, and thank you for hosting all these choices John. Just a heads-up that next week Donald will begin a short season of poetry choices.

Connie wrote: "I'll be curious what you find out, Lee. It sounds like we'll be going down some rabbit holes with this poem. .."

Connie, please forgive me! I create rabbit holes wherever I go and it drives me and everyone else crazy. I am ADHD personified.

Back to your lovely poem, and I will put Mozart back into the music section and out of poetry!

John wrote: "This discussion has completely intrigued me about Mozart. I always just listened to jazz and blues. My favorites. But I will have to pipe in some Mozart here at home and sit back and see if I can a..."

Yes, please do, John. He was such a joyful and happy young man, and he truly loved everyone. He was outrageously irrepressible! The biography I quoted from is subtitled: "The Reign of Love". His music has been described as "effervescent", and I would add to that: unforgettable. I do hope you take some time to explore Mozart, John, and that in itself would be a gift Hardy made to his readers!

Bionic Jean wrote: "What an interesting choice John, and an interesting discussion so far too everyone!

Yes there are 4 Mozart symphonies in E♭ major: nos. 1, 19, 26 and 39. I agree with Lee that it wouldn't be #1, ..."

How exciting to learn that you too are a musician!

John wrote: "This discussion has completely intrigued me about Mozart. I always just listened to jazz and blues. My favorites. But I will have to pipe in some Mozart here at home and sit back and see if I can a..."

Thank you, John, for pulling me into Hardy's poetry! I see I have some exploring to do myself!

Like you I have a piano diploma Lee 😊 (I think you've just forgotten). I did learn the violin but only scrape away, and am nowhere near as proficient as Thomas Hardy's family.

And please do look at our list of poems (everyone). There are over 20 more threads you can add to, each with a poem at its head. It's easy to miss one now and then!

This poem is a lovely reminder of how important music was to Hardy. We talked about that when we read the short story, “Fiddler of the Reels” over the summer. I am enjoying all the comments and speculations from everyone. I too suspect the poem is written in response to Mozart symphony 39 (one of my favorites and well worth listening to in its entirety).

My son is a young violinist, and two days ago we took him to hear our local symphony play Beethoven’s 9th symphony. Whenever I listen to these master symphonies played in person, it always elicits emotions and feelings from me. The next day I read this poem, and I felt a kinship with Hardy. These are his feelings written down after experiencing some awe inspiring music. It’s really lovely.

Bridget!!! I'm so glad you found this thread. 😊 I was thinking about you as I know you are very musical, leading The Fiddler of the Reels for us while you were at your son's violin summer camp (is that right?)

The story you led was such a great experience, and deserved more attention. Could you link to it - and the poem too perhaps please? Then people can read them and add their thoughts.

Jean, you have a wonderful memory! Yes, I was at my son's violin camp while leading "Fiddler of the Reels", a delightful short story by Hardy. Here is the link to that thread.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

I will go to the thread and link to this poem discussion as well. By the way, towards the end of our discussion about "Fiddler of the Reels" we talked about the poem, "My Father's Violin". Can't remember if we've discussed that poem already but thought I would mention it as "Lines to a Movement in Mozart's E-Flat Symphony" brought it to mind for me.

Thanks for the two links, Bridget! Yes, "My Father's Violin" was the poem I was thinking of, but now I see that it is in the list as still upcoming (for you to lead some time soon please 😊)

Lee G wrote: "Connie wrote: "I'll be curious what you find out, Lee. It sounds like we'll be going down some rabbit holes with this poem. .."

Connie, please forgive me! I create rabbit holes wherever I go and i..."

Please don't apologize, Lee. I'm finding the discussion quite fun, and have been known to go down lots of rabbit holes myself when I get on the internet.

The discussion on this poem, and all of them, has been a lot of fun. My choices were mainly random. I tried to do them at the beginning in a chronological pattern so we might see the development through his individual collections. That is not easy to discern with just one poem, but sometimes a pattern or theme — or sometimes style and simple mechanics — can be noticed. I’ll turn the reins over to Donald.

I was on JSTOR this morning and this is what I found relevant to this thread:

Thomas Hardy As Musician by Eve Mary Grew
Music in TH's Life and Work by Elva Sherman
Poetry and the Fiddler's Foot in TH's Work by Vilma Raskin Potter
Hardy's Poem " Lines to a Movement in Mozart's E Flat Symphony-Which Symphony? by Colin Boone

Bionic Jean wrote: "Thanks for the two links, Bridget! Yes, "My Father's Violin" was the poem I was thinking of, but now I see that it is in the list as still upcoming (for you to lead some time soon please 😊)"

I'd be happy to lead "My Father's Violin" sometime. It's a wonderful poem. Sorry it took me so long to respond, I got distracted by life.

I'll look forward to it sooner rather than later this year, thanks Bridget!

Donald - is there any way you could link to those articles please? They sound spot-on - especially the last one!

Yes, Donald, I am excited to read those articles you found also!

Jean: I would love to, but my Librarian wife informs me that that would be a copyright violation, and we couldn't do that now could we? However, I found out something interesting about JSTOR.

https://www.jstor.org/

If you have either an Amazon or Google account, you can log into JSTOR with it, search the article and download it. Tell me how that goes. (Before I found that out, I was getting in by referencing my Local Library which has a subscription.)

Ah, I should have thought of that. Sorry!

I have occasionally read articles, but it seems fiddly and just finding each of those would take me some time.

I believe my simple search was just: Thomas hardy, Mozart and the
requested document came out near the bottom of the list.

"In an article in the Thomas Hardy Journal, Colin Boone mentioned that Hardy's love of music was not only confined to religious, folk and popular music."

Here is the thesis on "Thomas Hardy’s Philosophical Influences in his Poetry" which this came from:
https://api.pageplace.de/preview/DT04...