Reading the 20th Century discussion

Roman Clodia wrote:



"If anyone is wavering over reading The Day of the Jackal, stop wondering and jump in - I loved it!

www.goodreads.com/review/show/7010403920"



Moi aussi....

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

5/5

Alwynne wrote: "Lady Clementina wrote: "Finally read Gentleman Overboard, a different, excellent read

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show..."

I keep hearing about this, your review's ver..."

Thanks, Alwynne, I hope you enjoy it.

Roman Clodia wrote: "Lady Clementina wrote: "Finally read Gentleman Overboard, a different, excellent read"

Wow, 'Wodehouse meets Sartre' is quite the puff in the blurb!"

Pretty apt, I think.

I finished rereading T. H. White's Mistress Masham's Repose originally published in 1946, this is now exclusively available in imprints that mark it out as for children. It was originally marketed to adult readers and very successful but I can see how White's refusal to adhere to conventional genre boundaries might make this difficult to place. He blends a story about a young orphan who makes a fantastical discovery with generous doses of social/political satire. Set in the 1940s it's inspired by Gulliver’s Travels and further informed by White's own research into 18th century literature and history - references surface throughout. Not always that subtle or that consistent but compelling all the same, hard not to agree with his assessment of strident, populist politicians - then connected to his thoughts about war and fascism but still feels relevant, particularly now. And the story itself is surprisingly gripping.

Link to my review:

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Nigeyb wrote: "Roman Clodia wrote:
"If anyone is wavering over reading The Day of the Jackal, stop wondering and jump in - I loved it! "
Moi aussi....."

I give it 5 stars as well.

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

I finished Satan is Real: Two Short Stories from acclaimed Northern Irish author Wendy Erskine who's known for her carefully-crafted depictions of working-class Belfast. Here she ventures into the supernatural with two tales of domestic horror: an exploration of grief via an unusual case of demonic possession and a coming-of-age story set in 80s Belfast in the midst of the satanic panic era.

Link to my review:

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

I've finished our buddy read Thérèse Desqueyroux and found it more and more involving:

www.goodreads.com/review/show/6981818598

Next, I need to get on with Parable of the Talents for my IRL book group.

I finished an award-winning, experimental novel by Mexican author Cristina Rivera Garza Death Takes Me a complex exploration of gendered violence, authorship, practices of writing/reading. Fans of Rivera Garza's work will notice similarities to The Taiga Syndrome highlighting Rivera Garza's commitment to blurring boundaries between texts and between genres. Rivera Garza draws extensively too on the work of Argentine poet, Plath-like figure, Alejandra Pizarnik - she provides all necessary background for readers not familiar with Pizarnik's work. It's a piece that demands commitment/concentration from its readers eschewing traditional approaches to character/plot, but repays that attention with its layered, thought-provoking take on storytelling.

Link to my review:

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Alwynne wrote: "I finished an award-winning, experimental novel by Mexican author Cristina Rivera Garza Death Takes Me a complex exploration of gendered violence, authorship, practices of writing/..."

I have an ARC of that - with a busy social week I probably won't have time to start it till the weekend - delighted to hear it worked for you.

Roman Clodia wrote: "Alwynne wrote: "I finished an award-winning, experimental novel by Mexican author Cristina Rivera Garza Death Takes Me a complex exploration of gendered violence, authorship, pract..."

Great, don't be put off by the alleged page count, it's only just over 300 not 600 plus, the ARC contains a repeat of the entire novel! I did a spot check and no immediately discernible differences and looked at Blackwell's, other editions etc and all have it as between 300 and 400. So no sense that there's more than one version here.

I hope your week goes well, I'm trying to avoid the festive season as usual, too noisy/crowded for me and don't drink so never really get caught up in the swing of things. Doubt I'll be able to avoid it altogether though, already been roped into a few things! Am part grinch/part Scrooge.

Has anyone tried any Jilly Cooper btw? I've started the adaptation of Rivals on Disney+ and it's brilliant. Thinking about Riders as a holiday read.

Ha, I'm feeling a bit jaded about Christmas this year, but it's hard to get out of the obligatory socializing which ramps up this week. At least I'm going to see the David Tennant Macbeth, so can sit in the dark in silence!

I *love* Jilly Cooper! Riders and Rivals are her best, Polo is also good and then the quality drops off but they're still fun - perfect for reading in the bath. I also used to love her single-name romances like Octavia, Prudence etc. but haven't read them since I was 20 so don't know if they still stand up. Cooper's just so witty and is a genius with puns.

Roman Clodia wrote: "Ha, I'm feeling a bit jaded about Christmas this year, but it's hard to get out of the obligatory socializing which ramps up this week. At least I'm going to see the David Tennant Macbeth, so can s..."

Tennant's the lead baddie in 'Rivals' so an interesting contrast! Love Macbeth, such a fascinating play.

Rivals is really intriguing, as a portrait of the 80s it's very convincing. Such a toxic era and Cooper's quite astute about class, women etc Although also quite confused, the former grammar school baddie versus the public school hero is a bit stock. But then the Irish socialist is very sympathetically drawn, and there are references to Section 28, Thatcherism as a blight. So trying to work out where Cooper was coming from perhaps a kind of old school benign Toryism? It's a bit like Nancy Mitford transplanted to the 1980s, also shades of Middlemarch in the community strife, power dynamics etc

The other thing I noticed is that the fashion is uniformly awful, so many period dramas where the clothes are enviable but the 80s were truly abysmal when it comes to outfits/hair etc

Yes, I'd say 'benign Toryism' sounds right for Jilly. A friend who grew up with her books went to see her at the South Bank a few weeks ago and she's still sassy and witty though getting frail.

Ha, yes, to 80s fashion! I went to see one of the exhibitions on Princess Diana's wardrobe and some of the outfits were dire: the cycling shorts! the pie-crust collars! The emerald necklace round her forehead! And to see that she was hailed as a fashion icon was quite the eye-opener. No wonder 90s minimalism was a thing.

It's striking how so many women starve themselves in her books with so much emphasis on being skinny in an unhealthy way. But overall the books are so fun.

I feel so guilty now, I found the book online so gave it a go and really hated it! Although definite admiration for the show's writers who managed to make it palatable. Sorry!!!

Link to my review:

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Haha, I was a bit surprised at your positive reaction - look forward to reading your takedown later! 😂

Roman Clodia wrote: "Haha, I was a bit surprised at your positive reaction - look forward to reading your takedown later! 😂"

The show is more like Mad Men if it'd been British and set in the 1980s, with a bit of dodgy seaside-humour style sex thrown into the mix! And lots of fake tans that would make the orange one feel right at home.

There were some serious things going on in Mad Men while the Jilly Cooper books are pure frivolous - you're so right about the seaside humour.

If you want to know about what happens to the characters in later books , just ask. Without tackling politics as such, the storylines do get a bit more progressive with important gay and Black characters who we love.

Roman Clodia wrote: "There were some serious things going on in Mad Men while the Jilly Cooper books are pure frivolous - you're so right about the seaside humour.

If you want to know about what happens to the charac..."

Thanks but I think having read this one I'd find the more progressive ones too suspect - I'd always be wondering how far they reflected a change in Cooper's sexual politics and how far they related to editorial suggestions to make them more acceptable. But it was really illuminating when it comes to the attitudes of men like Trump, this was clearly the kind of male-centric culture he felt at home in, and wants to recreate. Hard to believe really that at the same time that this came out writers like Angela Carter were making a name for themselves, Margaret Attwood had already published The Handmaid’s Tale, Kureishi was working on The Buddha of Suburbia, Virago, Women's Press etc were in their heyday. Two totally different worlds in complete opposition to each other, which also reinforces the notion that the culture wars are really not that new. Although did make me wonder what novels like Rebecca or Love in a Cold Climate would have been like published later, the age-gap relationship in du Maurier, Boy in Mitford all cut from similar cloth as Cooper's aristo men. Not to mention the groping father in the later Cazalet chronicles that girls were simply expected to avoid - based on Howard's own father who also tried to have sex with her when he was drunk.

I definitely wouldn't defend Jilly Cooper's sexual and other politics despite loving those books. The friend who saw her speak at the South Bank on the release of the TV series said she emerged wearing a genuine fur coat quite unrepentantly on the arm of one of the young male actors from Rivals, and made giggly jokes about serving spotted dick (?) at her ideal dinner party - British seaside humour, indeed!

Good point about what else was being published at the same time but I guess culture is never monolithic and, as readers, we can hold complicated opinions - Rebecca is a good example as we've discussed before.

You've made me wonder how I'd have reacted to Jilly Cooper if I'd read the books when they originally came out against the 1980s background of feminist energies whereas they always felt vintage to me when I got to them.

My 80s reading was mainly classics, especially Virago. Jilly Cooper's bonk-busters were not for me.

Roman Clodia wrote: "I definitely wouldn't defend Jilly Cooper's sexual and other politics despite loving those books. The friend who saw her speak at the South Bank on the release of the TV series said she emerged wea..."

I'm still reeling from a rather chilling article about the circumstances in which women's organisations campaigned for the criminalisation of rape in marriage in 1992, which also put Cooper in a wider context. Some of the court cases, comments by venerable judges were quite disturbing. Did make me wonder what life was really like behind closed doors if even raping a seven-year-old girl could be seen as an understandable lapse! So Cooper's portrayal of relationships between men and women, rape etc not that outlandish for the time.

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/20...

Sonia wrote: "My 80s reading was mainly classics, especially Virago. Jilly Cooper's bonk-busters were not for me."

There's actually not that much bonking, and a lot of dry discussions of the TV franchise and long stretches where nothing much happens. I read Lace by Shirley Conran a while ago, and remember that being much racier. The parts about sex in Cooper I found hard to deal with were more the casual sexual assaults, rape, forced fingering, groping etc As well as the attitudes towards very young women, Rupert is in his late 30s and Taggie his love interest is 18 but, at one point, he gets an erection when he's looking at her because she looks so much younger!

Roman Clodia wrote: "I definitely wouldn't defend Jilly Cooper's sexual and other politics despite loving those books. The friend who saw her speak at the South Bank on the release of the TV series said she emerged wea..."

I think in terms of Cooper's books this may well be a dud as it's overlong and quite dull at times. Was surprised too by how much of it is dialogue. I read an article by Olivia Laing also a Cooper fan that backs up your response:

https://www.theguardian.com/books/202...

But also think there's a difference between reading 'elicit' novels in a feverish rush when young and reading them much later. Also I was reading this from a queer perspective so the homophobia - like the trauma over the lesbian stepmother -really hit me, but it's only a few paragraphs so easily skimmed or missed. Equally as someone who's experienced sexual assault I'm very freaked out by hetero men who don't respect boundaries, so that aspect really uncomfortable reading particularly because it's so extensive. I can't even watch old kdramas because wrist grabs/pinning women a common feature in the older romances. I find films like Marilyn Monroe's Bus Stop too disturbing to watch for similar reasons. That's not to mention all the hunting/shooting in Cooper.

I'm always shocked by how brutal life seems to have been in the 1980s and 1990s in terms of everyday sexual violence, homophobia etc. I tend to have a vision of LiveAid and London Pride and Spare Rib and Virago but I guess they were all responding to and resisting mainstream values.

One of my male friends tells stories of coming of age as a gay man in 1980s London and the community around pubs in Soho and Kings Cross but he also took it for granted that he had to be circumspect about which friends/colleagues he could be open with.

Best that I leave Jilly Cooper as a lovely teenage memory, I suspect. Though I'm quite tempted by Lace!

Roman Clodia wrote: "I'm always shocked by how brutal life seems to have been in the 1980s and 1990s in terms of everyday sexual violence, homophobia etc. I tend to have a vision of LiveAid and London Pride and Spare R..."

Absolutely but then reading the comments about rape/consent etc made by the accused men in the Pelicot case not sure that much has really changed, just gone underground.

I suppose the only 'good' thing about the Pelicot case has been the outpouring of shock, horror and rage that has followed its reporting - or is that only in the sources I read?

Roman Clodia wrote: "I suppose the only 'good' thing about the Pelicot case has been the outpouring of shock, horror and rage that has followed its reporting - or is that only in the sources I read?"

My impression is most of the outpouring is from women, when it's men who need to be addressing the issues it raises.

Alwynne wrote: "... when it's men who need to be addressing the issues it raises."

A loud yes to that!

I finished a Penguin collection of seasonal stories by Swedish author Selma Lagerlöf A Book for Christmas nicely presented, these are a mix of personal and more fable-like pieces which offer a glimpse of Swedish Christmas customs and myths. Some worked well for me, not all but enough that I'd try more of her fiction. She was the first woman to win the Nobel Prize for Literature, also queer her love letters are apparently popular in Sweden but sadly not available in translation.

Link to my review:

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

I finally read my first Antoine Laurain which I found a real delight
The Red Notebook
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

I feel as if I've been reading Parable of the Talents for months now! I don't know why it's taking me so long - anyone else had that experience of a book of a conventional length feeling like it's six times the actual number of pages?

It's brutal in the depiction of dystopian America but somehow I'm being left untouched and unmoved, though appreciate where Butler goes in my head.

Who else has read this - thoughts?

Frequently - quite often if I'm not really enjoying a book, or reading time is scarce, or both


What is making you stick with it?

Nigeyb wrote: "What is making you stick with it?"

Firstly, it's for my IRL book group. And secondly, because Butler is very interesting in her interviews of what she wanted to do with this book - it's just that somehow her ideas aren't translating into gripping fiction for me.

I'm struggling with the American predisposition to see things in terms of religion and American exceptionalism, manifest destiny etc. and Butler doesn't interrogate these ideas.

It'll be an interesting book group discussion, at least. I'm skimming now to get it over with.

It's the opposite of those books you love so much, you want to live in that book-world and don't want it to end.

Phew, finished! www.goodreads.com/review/show/6993791802

Great review


Have an enjoyable and interesting discussion

RC - don't think it appeals to this American. And, I, for one, do not generally see things in religious or "American exceptionalism" context. Matter of fact, I never even heard of AE prior to George W. Bush and the "new republican" bs. Generalizations.

Jan C wrote: "RC - don't think it appeals to this American. And, I, for one, do not generally see things in religious or "American exceptionalism" context. Matter of fact, I never even heard of AE prior to Georg..."

Of course, Jan, I'm sure you're not alone. But that manifest destiny is linked to American colonialism and the whole drive to possess indigenous lands so Bush was in a long tradition.

Roman Clodia wrote: "Jan C wrote: "RC - don't think it appeals to this American. And, I, for one, do not generally see things in religious or "American exceptionalism" context. Matter of fact, I never even heard of AE ..."

Oh yes. IIRC the term "Manifest Destiny" was coined in the 1840's, but the idea is much older. It was one of the excuses we used to attack Mexico in 1846 and steal half their territory.

Roman Clodia wrote: "Jan C wrote: "RC - don't think it appeals to this American. And, I, for one, do not generally see things in religious or "American exceptionalism" context. Matter of fact, I never even heard of AE ..."

I agree R. C., I think maybe it's more glaring if you're not American and not based in America. I've noticed it a lot in American dramas, there's a certain form of patriotism too that is very marked. A lot about love of country etc When that comes up here people tend not to take it that seriously, I doubt for example that many people would get worked up about things like flag burning - probably why it doesn't tend to happen.

It's also a standard feature of many American narratives from Westerns onwards, the lone American individual who stands up for right and American values - although that's also tied to a particular brand of capitalism. And religion of course, whether people identify with it or not, is the basis of the original colonisation. And it's very noticeable in terms of the impact on libraries, school curriculum, political lobbying etc

I'm sure there are things about England I don't notice/take for granted because I'm so used to them too.

Agree, Alwynne, we can be blind to the cultural matters that are so deeply embedded that we see them as naturalised.

One of the things I found so interesting and disquieting about Butler's Parable of the Talents is that her opposition to an authoritarian Christian fundamentalist dystopia is another messianic religion which aims to set up a new colony on another planet. I really couldn't tell whether Butler was aware of the massive irony of this merely replaying the American story - I suspect not but I was skimming by the end.

Has anyone else read this book?

I just read an excellent story written in 1966 by Yukio Mishima in the 4 November 2024 New Yorker. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/20...

Thoughts about the "drunkenness" induced by fiction, the loneliness of the devoted reader and the nature of Mishima's shadow/double.

I only read the first of that series, RC, but I was bothered by the same issues.

I wrote a longer response, thinking about the things Americans are taught to believe about their exceptionalism, but it annoyed me too much to post it!

Ben wrote: "I just read an excellent story written in 1966 by Yukio Mishima"

I really need to read Mishima - I only know his story 'Patriotism'.

Ben wrote: "I only read the first of that series, RC, but I was bothered by the same issues.

I wrote a longer response, thinking about the things Americans are taught to believe about their exceptionalism,"

I really wish you'd let that post stand so I could go into book group with a 'this is what my American friend said'...!

Very interesting you had similar reservations though, especially as the book has a high rating on here and lots of rave reviews.

Ben wrote: "I just read an excellent story written in 1966 by Yukio Mishima in the 4 November 2024 New Yorker. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/20...

Thoughts ..."

I'm reading an ARC of the collection at the moment and enjoying it but been a Mishima fan for a long time.

Roman Clodia wrote: "Ben wrote: "I only read the first of that series, RC, but I was bothered by the same issues.

I wrote a longer response, thinking about the things Americans are taught to believe about their excep..."

I wish you'd let the post stand too!

Alwynne wrote: "I'm reading an ARC of the collection at the moment and enjoying it but been a Mishima fan for a long time."

Is that Voices of the Fallen Heroes? I've requested it but it's still pending.

I'm enjoying an ARC of Show Don't Tell, stories by Curtis Sittenfeld.

She's one of my go to authors when I want something that's easy to read but still satisfying. I've only read the first two stories but they're typical of her low-key but perceptive writing shot through with both humour and understanding.

Roman Clodia wrote: "Alwynne wrote: "I'm reading an ARC of the collection at the moment and enjoying it but been a Mishima fan for a long time."

Is that Voices of the Fallen Heroes? I've requested it but it's still pe..."

Yes, that's the one