Ersatz TLS discussion

Hello and welcome to the new thread.

Bill had an interesting question that people haven't had time to respond to, so I'm going to copy his post here.

A question prompted by my current reading, as well as coming across this in an NYRB review of The Last Days of Roger Federer: And Other Endings:

Inspired by Theodor W. Adorno’s essay fragment “Late Style in Beethoven” (“an important early reference point for this book about last things”), Dyer devotes many memorable pages to the late styles of D.H. Lawrence, J.M.W. Turner, Bob Dylan, Friedrich Nietzsche, Giorgio de Chirico, Ernest Hemingway, Jean Rhys, Don DeLillo, and various other writers, artists, athletes, and musicians.

Did anybody ever talk of a "late style" in music, painting, literature, or anything else before Beethoven, or did grappling with the works of that composer's last decade give rise to the concept?

As ever, happy reading to all!

Bill wrote: "Did anybody ever talk of a "late style" in music, painting, literature, or anything else before Beethoven, or did grappling with the works of that composer's last decade give rise to the concept?..."

It seems Adorno first used the term with regard to Beethoven in 1937. While there are plenty of subsequent examinations of the concept, I haven't (yet?) found earlier examples.

Thanks for the new thread, GP. Thanks also for the strong recommendation at the end of the last thread for Katherine Rundell’s Super-Infinite. It has attracted a lot of notice in the US, but I’ve held back as somehow I’ve always had trouble getting interested in Donne’s poetry beyond the well-known pieces. But it sounds as though this will be the book to do it for me.

Gpfr wrote: "Hello and welcome to the new thread.

Bill had an interesting question that people haven't had time to respond to...Did anybody ever talk of a "late style" in music, painting, literature, or anything else before Beethoven, or did grappling with the works of that composer's last decade give rise to the concept?..."

I have absolutely no idea about this specific question.

But I will answer with a general observation: humans have an apparently inbuilt and insatiable drive to categorise and group 'things' (whether concrete or abstract). Sometimes, this leads to very useful insights, as in science. Sometimes, it contrives to create categories which seem (to me) more or less meaningless: Gen Z, Gen X, 'the 60s', whatever... lazy journalism which group things that IMO are far too general to be easily fitted into a single box.

Was everyone a hippy in the 1960s? Did all Gen Zers (if I even have the right one) grow beards (OK, the men) and tattoos (everyone)?

The notion of 'late style' probably belongs somewhere in between the very precise and specific scientific process of categorisation, and the loose and almost meaningless one employed by journalists.

FWIW - it seems to me that some writers and artists improved with age, and whose later works are the greatest: Dostoyevsky (The Brothers Karamazov...); others start with a bang and then go nowhere (Joseph Heller - Catch-22); others start well, improve, then decline (Graham Greene); and yet others become brilliant very early on, and retain exceptional standards until death (Rembrandt).

So - I don't think the concept of 'late style' applies to or is useful for all artists (in whatever field), but must be applicable in certain cases where either there is some sort of 'late flowering', or if the later style differs substantially from what has gone before. (It occurs to me here - and I am no art historian, so please correct if necessary - that Kandinsky went through at least three phases: early more or less representational works, where houses etc. are clearly seen - even if the colours are improbably bright; a second phase of abstract works - again very bright - where perhaps we can guess at something such as a train, or railways, hidden in the chaos; and a final phase of subdued colours - failing eyesight? depression? a deliberate new direction? I have no idea.) But I hope you see what I mean about categorisation.

My reading right now involves the following:

Doris Lessing-Collected African Stories Vol 2
Herzl (A Biography) by Shlomo Avneri
The Backstreets: A novel from Xinjang by Perhat Tursun
Munich: 1919 Diary by Victor Klemperer
God in A World of War by John Hadham

As regards late style, i am still amazed at how some novels by 20 somethings are so well composed and written, about lives older than their own in a world they have barely explored

My best comment on late style would be Conrad. I found his 1900s novels were quite heavy in text and deeply analytical, a european style but by the WW1 era and Victory, he has perfected a much sharper and elegant approach, the impact was just as strong but the sentences were shorter and the paragraphs too. Lighter in a deceptive way ....

Russell wrote: "Thanks for the new thread, GP. Thanks also for the strong recommendation at the end of the last thread for Katherine Rundell’s Super-Infinite. It has attracted a lot of notice in the US, but I’ve h..."

Super-Infinite is a wonderful book. She somehow makes Donne the man so interesting, so human and that leads to understanding his poems and why he wrote them. That was how he wrote to his friends. His poems were not published while he was alive but collected together from letters after his death. For most of his life he was short of money and his friends sent him funds.

https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-... has a few pointers as to late style

Some artists evolved a late style because their eye sight was failing, Monet, Turner, with cataracts, I'm not quite sure how much the artists were aware of the change in their perception, as cataracts tend to evolve, slowly, over a very long time. Also, at least in the era of Modernism, many artists joined (and then split from!) groups that had evolved a specific style, and artistic mission, and so their evolution, to a different style was very much influenced by other artists that they has met along the way, in a very internationally, and geographically diverse sub-culture, usually to join another group with a different aesthetic, or 'mission' statement.

A classic example to me is Kandinsky and his involvement in 'Der Blaue Reiter' (The Blue Rider) group. Many artists lived in close proximity to other international artists. Kandinsky left 'Der Blau Reiter to join 'Dr Blaue Vier', (The Blue Four), in 1924. Well at least he was still in his 'Blue Period' !...

There was a lot of toing and froing across Europe, and indeed across the America's, Russia and the Middle East, so art styles, and their diverse influences, tended to evolve quickly, and over wide geographic areas. Indeed many new groups sprung up in order to be in direct competition, philosophically, and aesthetically, to the groups that they has just left...

I offended my 'Modernism' Art tutor, it seems, many years ago by asking her how Lyubov Popova, who was a Russian artist, got to be a scion of the Parisian art scene. I said "Did she just popova to Paris?" She was not amused!..." I couldn't help it, I find it hard to resist the opportunity for a terrible pun, it seems...

I'm back in Australia now with Chris Hammer's Cover the Bones.

The story is set in a small, unusual town, art deco/art moderne, in a fertile area resulting from a privately owned irrigation scheme and run by seven families.

There are 3 timelines:
- in the present day, the detective pair, Ivan Lucic and Nell Buchanan; are investigating a murder.
- in 1913, an indigenous girl comes as a servant to the family behind the irrigation.
- in 1993, a young man from one of the seven families plans to write his thesis on the history of the irrigation scheme.

So far, so good.

scarletnoir wrote: "(It occurs to me here - and I am no art historian, so please correct if necessary - that Kandinsky went through at least three phases"

This got me to wondering whether the division of artistic oeuvres into three stylistic periods might also have its origin in Beethoven studies. Such a division can seem a natural way of organizing a body of work; as musicologist Hans Keller said in another context, everything has a beginning, middle, and end.

The idea of three stylistic periods in the life of an artist, as well as other cliches of artist biography, is parodied in the wonderful Edwin Mullhouse: The Life and Death of an American Writer 1943-1954 by Jeffrey Cartwright (talk about starting with a bang!).

How about earlier writers, artists, etc - Shakespeare, for example. Did the concept of late-period Shakespeare exist before Adorno's comment on Beethoven? I remember when we were in school The Tempest being described as a characteristically late play and of course Lear, etc considered "mature works" compared to earlier tragedies like Romeo & Juliet. But this was the 1970s. Had the idea of early, middle and late-period Shakespeare been formalised already in, say, the early 19th century?

Berkley wrote: "How about earlier writers, artists, etc - Shakespeare, for example. Did the concept of late-period Shakespeare exist before Adorno's comment on Beethoven? I remember when we were in school The Temp..."

This is what I was wondering. The first folio, for example, divided the plays generically - comedies, histories, and tragedies - with The Tempest coming first.

It seems to me, as a matter of musical history, that Adorno's formulation, if he was in fact the first to use the term "late style", was putting into words a distinction the was widely felt among musicians from at least the second half of the 19th century. Among some conservative musicians, the idiosyncrasies and difficulties of the later music was sometimes attributed to Beethoven's total deafness in his last years. Is this the equivalent of attributing the appearance of Turner's light-drenched later paintings to cataracts?

Bill wrote: "Berkley wrote: "How about earlier writers, artists, etc - Shakespeare, for example. Did the concept of late-period Shakespeare exist before Adorno's comment on Beethoven? I remember when we were in..."

All I can say is 'possibly', its a hard one to prove really, whether in art or music. I know very little of Beethoven, but I do have a rather deaf husband, and I do think that deafness, and blindness probably, does change the way that a person relates to the world, and how they record its affects on them, so its not much of a stretch to think that it might bring about changes in the way that those people express themselves. Though they themselves were probably not that aware of it, as Monet and Turner painted what they saw, and were probably not that aware that their use of colour, and what they saw, for instance, was not the same as for a person without cataracts...

Tam wrote: "Some artists evolved a late style because their eye sight was failing, Monet, Turner, with cataracts, I'm not quite sure how much the artists were aware of the change in their perception, as cataracts tend to evolve, slowly, over a very long time."

This question interests me as a physicist and lover of art. Some time ago, I came across the information that Monet (for one) was well aware that his colour perception had changed, and had cataract surgery followed by the fitting of Zeiss lenses:

https://www.zeiss.com/corporate/en/c/...

I don't know about other artists - I did wonder about Kandinsky, given the rather muddy colours in his later works.

Bill wrote: "This got me to wondering whether the division of artistic oeuvres into three stylistic periods might also have its origin in Beethoven studies. Such a division can seem a natural way of organizing a body of work; as musicologist Hans Keller said in another context, everything has a beginning, middle, and end.

The idea of three stylistic periods in the life of an artist, as well as other cliches of artist biography, is parodied in the wonderful Edwin Mullhouse: The Life and Death of an American Writer 1943-1954 by Jeffrey Cartwright (talk about starting with a bang!)."

Thanks for that... last first: the Cartwright book appears to be out of print - in the UK at least - and there isn't an ebook... so maybe a bit too expensive to gamble on, even though it sounded definitely promising.

I can think of two other good book series featuring supposedly young people - The Secret Diary of Adrian Mole, Aged 13 3/4 by Sue Townsend - very funny; and 44 Scotland Street and the following series by Andrew McCall Smith, in which there is a boy who never grows older as the books proceed (everyone else does).

Both writers are very witty; Townsend is more to my taste politically, being of the left; Smith is a paternalistic conservative (back in the day, conservatives also cared about the 'lower orders', or at least pretended to do so: no more). The kid in Smith's books comes across as very wise, as opposed to his 'woke' mother (I'm sure the word didn't exist when the books were written). He is very funny, though I don't like the way leftist views are parodied in the mother - an idiot. Ignoring that, there is much to enjoy otherwise in an easy storytelling way.

As for 'three periods' - again, no idea. I suspect, as I said before, that people like to categorise things - and that sometimes such categorisation is valid and makes perfect sense, whereas at others it's more speculative and dubious.

scarletnoir wrote: "Tam wrote: "Some artists evolved a late style because their eye sight was failing, Monet, Turner, with cataracts, I'm not quite sure how much the artists were aware of the change in their perceptio..."

I really dislike too loud music in the background to a documentary which is supposedly about the information being imparted, even if it is quite pretty music!... I knew about the Zeiss lenses, but that does not mean to say that he saw normally again, as he had done in the past. He had a new normal, where they admit in the documentary that his eyesight is still blurred, which explains perhaps about the abstractness of his later paintings...

Tam wrote: "I offended my 'Modernism' Art tutor, it seems, many years ago by asking her how Lyubov Popova, who was a Russian artist, got to be a scion of the Parisian art scene. I said "Did she just popova to Paris?" She was not amused!..." I couldn't help it, I find it hard to resist the opportunity for a terrible pun, it seems..."

I am also inclined to make terrible jokes - though occasionally they are actually funny. Or so I think. ;-)

scarletnoir wrote: "Tam wrote: "Some artists evolved a late style because their eye sight was failing, Monet, Turner, with cataracts, I'm not quite sure how much the artists were aware of the change in their perception..."


"Paris with its wonderful (intense soft) light had relaxed my palette—there were other colors, other entirely new forms, and some that I had used years earlier. Naturally I did all this unconsciously."

from the 'Guggenheim' web site

To me this implies that he was discovering newer, softer and more subtle colours, and that it was a choice he made, as an older artist of 'relaxing' into a softer space?... rather than a deterioration of his eyesight particularly...


In 1933 Kandinsky was forced to leave Germany due to political pressures; yet, despite the turmoil, his move to Paris ushered in a highly creative period. Freed from teaching and administrative responsibilities, he devoted himself entirely to his art. His late works are marked by a general lightening of his palette with the addition of pastel and acidic colors and the introduction of organic imagery. They also express the inventiveness, cheerfulness, and humor of an older artist working peacefully in his studio at home. Breaking away from the rigidity of Bauhaus geometry, he turned to softer, more malleable shapes that often display a whimsical, playful quality.

Gpfr wrote: "I'm back in Australia now with Chris Hammer's Cover the Bones.

The story is set in a small, unusual town, art deco/art moderne, in a fertile area resulting from a privately owned..."

I thought you meant that literally!! Thanks for the new thread.


Back at the hospital today and delighted to say that I am now able to drive again. That means there will probably be less reading going on than over the last 6 weeks.

giveusaclue wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "I'm back in Australia now ..."

I thought you meant that literally!!"

I wish! Though it wouldn't be 'back' as I've never been :)
Good to hear you can drive, your hip must be doing well.

Gpfr wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "I'm back in Australia now ..."

I thought you meant that literally!!"

I wish! Though it wouldn't be 'back' as I've never been :)
Good to hear you can drive, your h..."

Thanks, doing well but was devastated when the surgeon told me I mustn't parachute. 🤣

The Fraud – Zadie Smith (2023)

In her usual zesty style ZS imagines the world of William Ainsworth, a now forgotten historical novelist who once rivalled Dickens. Literary figures of the day - Thackeray, Chapman, Forster, Cruickshank, Dickens himself - glide across the scene, all as observed by Ainsworth’s cousin by marriage, Mrs Eliza Touchet, an intelligent and capable widow of sharp and controversial opinions who comes to manage his family, his house, and his declining fortunes. In this world, the men have a grand time and the women are disregarded, unless they possess beauty, or money.

Ainsworth’s first wife was for a time Mrs Touchet’s lover. Ainsworth’s very young second wife, his former servant, is a vulgar, ardent and perceptive supporter of the Tichborne Claimant, and the story moves round in that direction. Through her we learn about the case as it happens. We sit in the court. We hear the witnesses and counsel.

It is all very interesting, and at every turn we are confronted by the incredible wealth and brutality of the English sugar interests. And yet the story feels like an aircraft going at full speed down the runway without achieving lift-off. This may explain the muted ratings from readers. Perhaps being earth-bound can’t be helped if the historical record is to be duly respected.

Finally, though, Mrs Touchet herself, already an abolitionist in her younger days, sits and listens privately to the long and often terrible life-story of Andrew Bogle, the Jamaican slave-boy turned valet to the Claimant. At immense personal cost, Bogle has given convincing evidence that the Claimant is who he says he is. Now the novel takes flight.

There are no passages that are actually dull. The writing itself is fresh. ZS creates moment after moment of vivid action and speech. You feel her writerly authority on every page. Taken as a whole, and you do have to bear with it while ZS lays the ground, I thought it was impressive.

Russell wrote: "The Fraud – Zadie Smith (2023)

In her usual zesty style ZS imagines the world of William Ainsworth, a now forgotten historical novelist who once rivalled Dickens. Literary figures of the day - Tha..."

Wow, that's a review that is guaranteed to make me read the book

Russell wrote: "The Fraud – Zadie Smith (2023)

In her usual zesty style ZS imagines the world of William Ainsworth, a now forgotten historical novelist who once rivalled Dickens. Literary figures of the day - Tha..."

I agree with Paul, you make it sound enticing. I might make this one my first Zadie Smith book: I'd been more or less planning to try something eventually but I don't remember any of her previous ones catching my interest as much as this one has, through your description.

I have read one of Ainsworth's novels, Jack Sheppard, which I remember as very entertaining - it was easy to see why it was such a sensational success at the time, in spite of coming under heavy criticism for glorifying crime.

Berkley wrote: "I have read one of Ainsworth's novels, Jack Sheppard, which I remember as very entertaining - it was easy to see why it was such a sensational success at the time, in spite of coming under heavy criticism for glorifying crime."

I've had Old St. Pauls on my shelves for decades, and the reviews of the Smith novel have made me think of trying to read it, but for the past year or so starting any kind of fiction reading has been an uncertain undertaking.

Bill wrote: "I've had Old St. Pauls on my shelves for decades, and the reviews of the Smith novel have made me think of trying to read it, but for the past year or so starting any kind of fiction reading has been an uncertain undertaking."

I hadn't heard of that one until now. Looking it up, one attraction for me would be the inclusion of John Wilmot, Earl of Rochester among the cast of characters, as he is one of my favourite poets and also an interesting personality.

I've been lucky in not having any trouble finding fiction I'm in the mood to read the last several years - I think in large part because I imposed a semi-arbitrary framework on my reading a few years ago in an effort to get to some of the things I had always wanted to read but somehow had not managed to make time for up to then.

It's changed and evolved in various ways since my original, simple idea of a straightforward chronological progression starting with the Elizabethan era and carrying on from there, but it's been a great help in choosing the next book to read. Also, since I'm usually reading things from a particular time (recently it's been mostly the early 19th-C, the late 1950s, and the early 1990s), I've found that I get in the mood for other things from that time, so in one way or another I'm rarely stuck for something I feel motivated to try.

I've read Nuremberg Diary, previously recommended on this site. As I waited for it to come from interlibrary loan, another book, on the Colditz prison camp, appeared on the Auburn Library's New Book shelf.
The Colditz story is a new book, that draws on a number of recent sources to describe a fortress turned prison camp. As in the World War One prison where The Grand Illusion is set, the Germans sent failed escapees and prisoners they considered troublemakers to a maximum security camp. The German captain who acted as Colditz's security was proud of his success in thwarting escape attempts, and established a little "museum" in the prison.
It was interesting to note a parallel with passages in The Picnic : A Dream of Freedom and the Collapse of the Iron Curtain. Like the Colditz administration, the Stasi, the East German political police force, kept statistics on flights from the GDR, and had its own museum on failed escapes.
Of course, the proportions were vastly different. Colditz had under 1000 inmates. The GDR kept files on millions of people.
Though the Nuremberg Diary is interesting, I found the interviews with the defendants depressing. Perhaps another time...

Robert wrote: "I've read Nuremberg Diary, previously recommended on this site. As I waited for it to come from interlibrary loan, another book, on the Colditz prison camp, appeared on the Auburn Library's New Boo..."

thats a shame about Nuremberg Diary Robert, i could hardly put it down and was amazed at how i'd overlooked it for so long. I thought most of the defendants showed real intelligence and made interesting cases for Gilbert, which suprised me. I didnt expect them to be so eloquent, though a few were borderline insane

Bill wrote: "Berkley wrote: "I have read one of Ainsworth's novels, Jack Sheppard, which I remember as very entertaining - it was easy to see why it was such a sensational success at the time, in spite of coming under heavy criticism for glorifying crime."

I've had Old St. Pauls on my shelves for decades..."

Both of those Ainsworth titles figure several times in The Fraud, and Jack Sheppard does sound good value. I’ll ask the library if they can find a copy.

I'm making a tentative return to Larry Durrells Alexandria Quartet. Its always been on my radar but for many years i incorrectly saw it as second rate english literature, about 1930s society and the kind of novel involving talking, parties and nonsense that i loathe

1930s Alexandria, a city of 600,000 odd people, diverse like many empire ports, though far older than anything British Imperial, a thriving christian and jewish population, greeks, italians, copts and Brits(among the Brits many Maltese)

But in 2020 Justine really suprised me and held my attention, the world of Alexandria its multi-cultural population that faded so fast after WW2. Characters that i loved and characters that i hated, mixed up with some brilliant prose and set pieces. the charm and the spell of the East stirring my imiagination.

I had to stop reading Balthazar in 2022 the second in the quartet as it felt forced, arch and less spontaneous, it was a huge dissapointment and i said "ok, i'll leave the other 2 books"

But i have just started book 3 Mountolive(1958) and it has started with the promise that Justine did, gently jogging my memory and bringing me back to 1930s Alexandria. It may get dumped but so far so good, especially fishing by carbide light on the lake, fish thrashing towards the light, sea birds smashing into the fishermen, blood everywhere and a sort of primal, earthy reality to it all.

Nothing like having a gift article to share at the end of the month. And be sure and skim the reader's comments, too. - https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/28/op...

I clipped this one, just because I read - Comment from NYT - One of the things I like to do is pick a old book that I know nothing about and read it. Some of the books are terrible and some of them are great which leads me to conclude that literary reputation has a certain amount of luck in it. Would The Great Gatsby be a classic if it hadn't been pick by the US Army as one of the Soldiers Library book in WWII? If Twain's Innocents Abroad hadn't be selected as one of the books in the very first Books by Mail subscriptions which gave him a national audience, would he be as famous? Would he even continued writing without that early success? Let us never forget that Moby Dick was forgotten until one editor, Carl Van Doren and one critic, Raymond Weaver, in the 1920's started to praise it.

AB76 wrote: "I'm making a tentative return to Larry Durrells Alexandria Quartet. Its always been on my radar but for many years i incorrectly saw it as second rate english literature..."

I read it in my late teens/early twenties, one of the must-reads at that age, at that time. I've never felt tempted to revisit it.

MK wrote: "Nothing like having a gift article to share at the end of the month. And be sure and skim the reader's comments, too. - https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/28/op......"

thats fascinating that Moby Dick was neglected till as recently as the 1920s! I am aiming to read that in next 12 months but will need to be ready for that experience!

Gpfr wrote: "AB76 wrote: "I'm making a tentative return to Larry Durrells Alexandria Quartet. Its always been on my radar but for many years i incorrectly saw it as second rate english literature..."

I read it..."

some say he is the most european of british writers and i can feel that in the way he expresses himself, though in many ways he was running away from Britain all his life, so he probably never wanted to write like his contemporaries anyway

Robert wrote: "I've read Nuremberg Diary, previously recommended on this site. As I waited for it to come from interlibrary loan, another book, on the Colditz prison camp, appeared on the Auburn Library's New Boo..."

Couldn't resist a history of Auburn Public Library - https://www.historylink.org/File/2022....

It's because I worked a KCLS then and the word was out that if Auburn didn't finally vote to join KCLS, a rural library district as defined by WA law, they would not have another chance because the population of Auburn would go over the 100,000 limit at the next census.

There are two kinds of libraries in WA state - those that were begun before WA became a state in 1889 -city libraries (Seattle, Spokane, Tacoma, to name a few), and rural library districts like the one in King County. They are funded differently.

Gpfr wrote: "AB76 wrote: "I'm making a tentative return to Larry Durrells Alexandria Quartet. Its always been on my radar but for many years i incorrectly saw it as second rate english literature..."

I read it in my late teens/early twenties, one of the must-reads at that age, at that time. I've never felt tempted to revisit it."

I too read it in my early 20s and loved it, and read it again. Not sure what I would think of it now. I think I liked Clea the best of the four, for the way it looked back and set everything in perspective.

The Quartet did lead me to explore Cavafy. The translations by John Mavrogordato, with a lovely pen-line drawing by David Hockney on the cover, were wonderful. I think that was the only set available at the time, many more since.

Alexandria seems to be an awful place now, entirely dominated by Muslim clerics, every scrap of the cosmopolitan culture erased. At least, that's how it seems from the occasional newspaper report..

Gpfr wrote: "AB76 wrote: "I'm making a tentative return to Larry Durrells Alexandria Quartet. Its always been on my radar but for many years i incorrectly saw it as second rate english literature..."

I read it..."

I'm not sure that "second-rate" is so incorrect. But I don't remember it precisely enough to argue the case.
What I do like by Lawrence Durrell is Bitter Lemons of Cyprus.

giveusaclue wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "I'm back in Australia now ..."

I thought you meant that literally!!"

I wish! Though it wouldn't be 'back' as I've never been :)
Good to hear you can ..."

I guess bungee jumping is out of the question, too?!

Great to hear that your recovery is going well :)

Fuzzywuzz wrote: "I guess bungee jumping is out of the question, too?!

Great to hear that your recovery is going well :)

Haha, along with marathon running. Heart breaking isn't it!! Unfortunately he didn't rule out housework.

And thank you.

Russell wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "AB76 wrote: "I'm making a tentative return to Larry Durrells Alexandria Quartet. Its always been on my radar but for many years i incorrectly saw it as second rate english literature....."

Alexandria lost all its diversity after Nasser, like so much of the great urban centres of the Arab world, while they maintained a modernity towards women into the 1960s, the tolerance of other faiths faded and by the 1990s women were back where their grandmothers had been in the 1900s, in black and second rate citizens

oddly i cannot remember Mountolive, the character in "Justine" at all, i wonder if he played a very minor role

Alongside Cavafy, another Alexandrine born poet was Guiseppe Ungharetti and the Futurist icon Marinetti too was born in Alexandria. The Italian and Greek communities were numerous up till WW2. The Greeks had deep historical links, the Italians had been there a long time too, though by 1900 they were populous in almost all the Eastern North African cities like Tunis, Tripoli, Benghazi and Alexandria, plus in Algiers

AB76 wrote: "Robert wrote: "I've read Nuremberg Diary, previously recommended on this site. As I waited for it to come from interlibrary loan, another book, on the Colditz prison camp, appeared on the Auburn Li..."

I found it depressing that a cross-section of intelligent, capable, and in some cases very well-educated men could unleash such violence on the world.
I've read Telford Taylor's book on the trial (Taylor was an assistant prosecutor, concentrating on the German military), and Taylor's view includes the particular charges against the prisoners, and their response to the charges.
It is interesting that the Diary takes a positive view of Justice Jackson's performance; Taylor found himself defending Jackson from later critics. Taylor clearly had deep admiration for Robert Jackson, whom he described as "talented beyond his peers"; later critics have claimed that Goering won his confrontation with Jackson; the Diary's author disagrees.

Some cheering spring flowers.
The photographer, Robert Doisneau, lived in the building on the left in the background. The little park is called Square Robert Doisneau.

Gpfr wrote: "Some cheering spring flowers.
The photographer, Robert Doisneau, lived in the building on the left in the background. The little park is called Square Robert Doisneau.

"

Lovely to see those after the seemingly unending wet weather we have had this winter in the UK.

Russell wrote: "The Fraud – Zadie Smith (2023)

In her usual zesty style ZS imagines the world of William Ainsworth, a now forgotten historical novelist who once rivalled Dickens. Literary figures of the day - Tha..."

Good review. I don't think I've read anything by Smith - I tend to be cautious of new writers, especially prize winners! (they usually disappoint...) You're right about the mixed response of readers (on Amazon) - most complain about too many jumps between timelines. That can be wearing - it all depends on how well it is handled.

I wonder if anyone else has a positive or negative view on this one?

Robert wrote: "I've read Nuremberg Diary, previously recommended on this site. As I waited for it to come from interlibrary loan, another book, on the Colditz prison camp, appeared on the Auburn Library's New Boo..."

When I was but a youth (OK, early 20s...) an excellent series was shown on the BBC (I think) about Colditz and the many escape attempts. It starred, among others, that lovely Scot David McCallum (of Illya Kuryakin/Man from Uncle and 'Ducky' of NCIS fame). Of course, he made his name in another escape story - 'The Great Escape', no less.

I don't know if it is showing anywhere these days, but for the time it was top notch:
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0068059/...

It avoided crude generalisations about Germans - this is from a viewer review on IMDB:

The Commandant (Bernard Hepton), known only by his forename Karl, is a moderate and honourable Oberst (Colonel), a Wehrmacht man, who adheres to the Geneva Convention to the best of his ability. He is anxious to be seen by the German authorities as running an orderly camp in order to prevent the SS and Gestapo from taking control. He relies on Colonel Preston to keep the British prisoners in check.

"AB76 wrote: "I'm making a tentative return to Larry Durrells Alexandria Quartet. Its always been on my radar but for many years i incorrectly saw it as second rate english literature....."

Gpfr wrote: "I'm not sure that "second-rate" is so incorrect. But I don't remember it precisely enough to argue the case.
What I do like by Lawrence Durrell is Bitter Lemons of Cyprus.

I'm with Gpfr on this one.

It must be around 50 years or so since I read the 'Alexandria Quartet', and TBH I'm not sure why I bothered to read the whole thing. It struck me from the outset as being a rather pretentious and preposterous undertaking:

As Durrell explains in his preface to Balthazar, the four novels are an exploration of relativity and the notions of continuum and subject–object relation, with modern love as the theme. The Quartet's first three books offer the same sequence of events through several points of view, allowing individual perspectives of a single set of events. The fourth book shows change over time. (from Wikipedia)

There must have been something to the books, otherwise I would not have bothered even then (a time when I finished every book, even if I hated it). My recollection is that Durrell was excessively keen on using obscure words where perfectly normal ones would do - a 'look how clever I am' style of writing which infuriates me.

I should admit that I love words more than most people - and love to see them used with wit, imagination and precision. No-one does this better than François-Henri Désérable, where words from the period under consideration are mingled with contemporary speech; where archaic words are used precisely because they 'belong' in that place and time; and where one word does double - or sometimes triple - duty. For example, in 'Évariste', he suggests that the protagonist was considered as fat by one of his denigrators. Now this somewhat old-fashioned French word can mean:

'doltish; inane; thick'... but it can also mean:
'vain; conceited; full of oneself; bumptious...'

Which meaning did Désérable intend? Why, both - of course.

Whereas... Durrell (like too many 'fine writers') doesn't care a whit about how appropriate the word chosen may be: he is determined to wave in our faces his bumptious assumed 'superior erudition' - in other words, to prove that he had, once upon a time, 'swallowed a dictionary' and was keen to regurgitate some of its contents.

At least, that's how it struck me at the time. (It's a long time ago - I won't get into detailed argument about Durrell.) My comment is more of an attempt to make even clearer - to myself, and to to others - what I believe to be the difference between great writers and those who wish to adopt a cloak of greatness.

To use an analogy: the great writers (from a style POV) are like chess masters who analyse a game after it is finished: they look for the 'best move', without the intervention of ego. It is an almost scientific process. But your wood-choppers or kibitzers will offer, always, the flashiest and most eye-catching moves - which are often not the best ones.

That's the way I see it, anyway.

I did enjoy 'Bitter Lemons' far more. It seemed more down to earth, somehow - even if it did deploy poetic language iirc.

giveusaclue wrote: "Back at the hospital today and delighted to say that I am now able to drive again. That means there will probably be less reading going on than over the last 6 weeks..."

Good news - or swings and roundabouts? ;-)

scarletnoir wrote: ""AB76 wrote: "I'm making a tentative return to Larry Durrells Alexandria Quartet. Its always been on my radar but for many years i incorrectly saw it as second rate english literature....."

Gpfr ..."

lets see if Mountolive goes ok, if it gets ditched then its over with the Quartet for me

so far i'm enjoying it....though when it comes to chroniclers of the north african world, the style of Paul Bowles is my favourite and his three novels of Morocco. his short stories impressed me a lot less oddly

scarletnoir wrote: "Russell wrote: "The Fraud – Zadie Smith (2023)"

I wonder if anyone else has a positive or negative view on this one? ..."

I haven't read it yet, but I will — waiting for the price to go down :). I like her books. My favourite so far is On Beauty.

scarletnoir wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Back at the hospital today and delighted to say that I am now able to drive again. That means there will probably be less reading going on than over the last 6 weeks..."

Good n..."

Definitely all good as the pain has gone for the first time in a year.

giveusaclue wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Back at the hospital today and delighted to say that I am now able to drive again. That means there will probably be less reading going on than over the last..."

That must be SUCH a relief!