SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

Do you include your DNF as read books? I spent a week getting 63% into Jade City and I honestly don’t care how it ends.

I suppose it it a matter of circumstance and taste. Some books I still have a hope for, thinking it is my mood or life that got in the way. Then I keep it as unread.

Other times you might want to write a review and get it off your "currently reading" shelf and never see it in your "to-read" list, then it might be just as well to stash it as "read" and also tag it as a DNF.

You don't have to be consistent. Part of the human experience is to be a pile of contradictions.

Trude wrote: "I suppose it it a matter of circumstance and taste. Some books I still have a hope for, thinking it is my mood or life that got in the way. Then I keep it as unread.

Other times you might want to..."

I created a Shelf called Abandoned and put them on there and then made that an Exclusive shelf. Those books do not show up under Read or Want to Read (my TBR books)

to edit shelves go here:

https://www.goodreads.com/shelf/edit

CBRetriever wrote: "I created a Shelf called Abandoned and put them on there and then made that an Exclusive shelf."

Sure, and thanks CBRetriever! I hadn't found the exclusive shelf function before.

When you see the list of your shelves, linked by CBRetriever above, you can mark any shelf "exclusive" in that list to make it so that your book doesn't have to be in other categories.

Like CBR, I created an "unfinished" exclusive shelf (initially "abandoned" as well, but recently that one was... abandoned) which I mostly use to keep track of anthologies, collections of essays, non fiction, poetry, which were borrowed from various libraries across the decades. Then I made it sortable, and it's been useful to order the shelf by theme as well.

My serious question, though is...
Do y'all use DNF as a verb? Even when speaking, "I deeenefed it". Ò_ó

a.g.e. montagner wrote: "My serious question, though is...
Do y'all use DNF as a verb? Even when speaking, "I deeenefed it". Ò_ó"

Yep, I see it quite a lot and got used to it already. One of the super powers of English is that you can make a verb or an adjective from almost any noun and vice versa, especially with the new words that appear these days.

And that's fine, mostly. I agree that it's one of the fun things about English grammar.

What puzzles me is the use of an acronym as a verb... for which a perfect verb exists already, incidentally.

CBRetriever wrote: "Trude wrote: "I suppose it it a matter of circumstance and taste. Some books I still have a hope for, thinking it is my mood or life that got in the way. Then I keep it as unread.

Other times you..."

Like you, I created an "Abandoned" shelf - used solely for books I DNF - but I do include a sentence or two on why I DNF'd :)

Like others, I have a shelf for books I do not finish, but if I get over 51%, I often will count it in "Read." I read most of it, after all, and have thoughts about it.
I also say DNF and DNFed out loud. I know the acronym is already did not finish, but we needed tenses because you can be going to not finish (I will likely DNF it) and you can have decided not to finish it (I DNFed/ DNF'd it). Yay English!

Yeah, the word is "abandon". ;)

Back on topic.
Usually I will either abandon a book very early on or not at all. Deciding to read a book is often a long process for me, but once the engine is running... Apart from textbooks, critical essays and other books that I've consulted either for academical studies or work, whenever I didn't finish a novel it was against my will: I had to return it, or focus on my exams, &c.

I wonder whether audiobooks, and the practice of listening while perhaps doing something else, might increase the chance of leaving a book unfinished. What's your experience?

edit: David Foster Wallace is an exception. I've tried his novels, his short stories, his essays: I couldn't finish any of it.

CBRetriever wrote: "Trude wrote: "I suppose it it a matter of circumstance and taste. Some books I still have a hope for, thinking it is my mood or life that got in the way. Then I keep it as unread.

Other times you..."

Also have "abandoned" shelf but did not make it exclusive as some might get another chance to read with a different mood. Usually add a review of why. e.g. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/5...

abandon has such connotations! I didn't leave for cigarettes and never come back. I might also not be giving up, giving in, surrendering, terminating or jettisoning it. but what is always true is it's not finished XD

My personal take on DNF in this context is that it may specifically refer to a a book noted on Goodreads as being read, and especially one started with a view toward reviewing or discussing here. Obviously, others may use it elsewhere.

Both pronouncing the acronym and using it as various parts of speech seem to me to be reasonable. Or it could be condemned as Jargon. (An attitude I do not share, especially if the term is short, distinct, and avoids repeating things at length. Using it to exclude newbies is another matter.)

I used to have an "abandoned" shelf, but I changed it a couple years back to "DNF". Probably because I would say "DNF'd" out loud (pronouned as "dee enn effed") when referring to them, but then my shelf wasn't that. So I changed it.

Regardless of what the shelf was, I do not consider that an "exclusive" status. If I have started a book and then quit for whatever reason, and no matter how much I actually made it through, I will count it as "Read", and just tag it as a DNF.

I used to be a completionist when I was younger (when dinosaurs roamed thereabouts), but life is too short.

I seem to be similar to a.g.e. In that it does take me quite a bit of time to decide to read a novel, by which time I’m fairly certain I will enjoy it. There have been some exceptions (Windup Girl) and sometimes I may not be loving it, but I’ll finish it anyway. Those often take me forever to finish, which doesn’t improve my opinion of the book.

I have an exclusive DNF shelf, but it’s mostly just a reminder for me that I never want to try reading this book again. There are only a few books on it and I hope it stays that way.

And yay to DNF becoming a word (noun and verb!) in its own right that we can conjugate and use in a sentence just like any other more proper word. Who knows, maybe in 50 years people will be spelling it “deeaneff” and it’ll make its way into Webster’s Dictionary.

a.g.e. montagner wrote: "Yeah, the word is "abandon". ;)
"

I would never say that I abandoned a book. For me the meaning of the word has different connotations.
"Abandoned" as a name for a shelf sounds fine though. Weird.

Fun discussion! I have a shelf deemed "Abandoned without prejudice" for books I may come back to; started, DNF, not because of the quality of the book, but just I am not in the mood for it. For books I hate and DNF, I usually write a review and count it as read. I also use DNF as a verb!

Sure, I have an exclusive dnf shelf. I do not mark them read. I do use dnf as a verb.

To me, the most important thing is that I do *not* rate books that I do not finish. Too often I have finished books that I didn't like in the beginning but did by the end... we almost never know what the whole book is unless we read the whole thing!

The second most important thing is that I *do* 'review' books that I dnf. I let the community know why I didn't finish it, what wasn't working for me, just like when I do finish a book I let the community know what did & didn't work for me.

So, do review, don't rate, don't mark read. :)

Yeah to DNF something is not at all the same as not finishing it. It's an active choice, often an act of seething contempt even :D And abandoning is not the same either.

I don't count real DNFs as read, because I still don't DNF as much as I should. I either hate read the whole book (and it's a mental DNF, I have technically read it but haven't been mentally present for it) and mark it as read, or I DNF and remove it from my GR shelves entirely. I don't review books, so I don't need to keep them around. So far I haven't accidentally restarted a book I've DNFed, but that day might come :D

I named my DNF shelf "not my cup of tea". Books on it are there because I got bored by the story or something about it ticks me the wrong way. Good way to remember not to pick them up again.

John wrote: "Also have "abandoned" shelf but did not make it exclusive as some might get another chance to read with a different mood. Usually add a review of why. e.g. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/5"

you can always move it off that shelf if you want to have another go at it

I rate and review DNFs the same as I rate and review everything. I think of a book as any other product. If I bought a vacuum cleaner, and on the first use I realize that it's poorly designed or low quality, I'm going to return it and I'd feel compelled to leave a review to say why I didn't like it. I don't need to struggle through vacuuming my entire house, or keep it for 6 months to see if it grows on me - I know that this vacuum and I are not compatible.

Or maybe it worked great for the first 3 runs, and then the power dropped and I have to go over the same section over and over... That's not a product that I want to spend my time or money on. So I don't.

A book is the same. If I know that a plotline, or writing style, or lack of editing or annoying characters or whatever it is isn't working for me, I don't see the need to finish in order to rate or review it. My rating represents its value to me, and my review explains why.

So, if you didn't finish it, it's not read. That's what "read" means... that it's been completed.

NOW... if it's for personal tracking? Who cares, really? I'd find it confusing to have books that I did not finish on a Read shelf as that's mixing categories - some books on that shelf would have been finished, others not. But if someone is OK with that... eh.

For purposes of reviewing? No, you didn't 'read' it but I think if you read enough to talk about why it didn't work for you a review and even a score is legit - you're scoring it 1 star because you really didn't like it. You did not like it enough that you didn't even finish it.

What's enough? For me, around 50%. 10% is not enough. Between there, the closer you get to 50% or so, the better.

For challenges, I couldn't count an unfinished book as read because, to me, that would feel like cheating. See para 1 :)

I agree that read = finished ≠ unfinished, but I'm curious to see other people's parameters.

I have no stigma against the books in my unfinished shelf. In most cases, there's hope I'll finish them at some point; some are an author's opera omnia and are a reading work-in-progress. In other cases, I've taken what I needed from them, sayonara.

The ones that I genuinely left in the lurch are nowhere near my profile.

As some others have said, I think the choice of marking a DNF book read or not is up to each reader, depending on how you use your shelves. When I was younger, I used to make myself finish every book, but now, I figure there are too many good books out there for me to spend time on ones I don't connect with. If I'm not sure about a book when I start reading it, I'll hold off on moving it to my "currently reading" shelf for a bit. If it's not the right time for that book, I'll keep it on my "to read" list, and if it's not for me, I delete it from my shelves altogether. I don't track the books I DNF due to them not being a good fit for me, as it's unlikely that I'll accidentally pick them up again in the future. I don't rate books that I don't finish, which is probably why I don't have many books that are rated 1 or 2 stars. I figure that I'm not the right audience for those books, and I'll leave them for others to comment on.

"I agree that read = finished ≠ unfinished, but I'm curious to see other people's parameters."

To me, this is just the meaning of the word. It's not really debatable. "I read BOOK" is always taken to mean you read the entire book.

As I said, I don't care if it's done and used only in private situations, but in public ones it's going to confuse things. "I read 75 books for my challenge" implies one finished 75 books. If you finished 40 and didn't finish 35, that's very different. If someone says "I read BOOK" and I reply "Me too. What did you think of that ending?" they couldn't answer because, well, they didn't read it. They read part of it. If we're going to start using personal meanings for words, it's hard to communicate well.

Plus, well, I don't see a strong argument to say that one read a book that one actually only read a part of. Why not just say "I finished 40 books and parts of 35" or put the unfinished on a shelf names as such? I don't see a good reason to not be accurate. There's no shame in abandoning a book for any reason at all.

If read 50 or more percent- added to read
If less that 50 then removed from TBR

I have a DNF shelf that is exclusive, but I also believe that as long as I put in a Date Read - which I use the date that I gave up on - then it gets count as Read towards the yearly goal, and I do count it, regardless of how far I got, because I tried, darnit...

And I'm not likely to give up on a book without getting at least 30% in. I very rarely DNF a book. It has to be really bad, so I should get something for all that suffering... ^_^


Becky wrote: "I used to be a completionist when I was younger (when dinosaurs roamed thereabouts), but life is too short."

What was it like? Did you get to pet a triceratops? ^_^

Rick wrote: "For purposes of reviewing? No, you didn't 'read' it but I think if you read enough to talk about why it didn't work for you a review and even a score is legit - you're scoring it 1 star because you really didn't like it. You did not like it enough that you didn't even finish it."

That's read enough for me to count it as read. ;)

Regarding the what's "enough" question, I don't have any guideline or rules around this, personally. I've DNF'd a book at 4% of 600+ pages, and I've DNF'd at like 80% after something like 40+ hours of audiobook.

When it stops working for me, or I stop enjoying it, I'll stop reading unless it is out of spite to really shred it.

==============

colleen the convivial curmudgeon wrote: "Becky wrote: "I used to be a completionist when I was younger (when dinosaurs roamed thereabouts), but life is too short."

What was it like? Did you get to pet a triceratops? ^_^"

Yeah, of course. They were surprisingly squishy. :D

a.g.e. montagner wrote: "edit: David Foster Wallace is an exception. I've tried his novels, his short stories, his essays: I couldn't finish any of it."

Ditto! I want to experience his brilliance but after several attempts, it eludes me and the desire towards that experience is eroding without having finished a single book of his...

Matty wrote: "Do you include your DNF as read books? I spent a week getting 63% into Jade City and I honestly don’t care how it ends."

I would say anything over 50% is fair game to mark as read. Since you have read enough to state clearly why you didn't finish a book that you started.

Finally I understand how people manage to "read" so many books in a year.

a.g.e. montagner wrote: "Finally I understand how people manage to "read" so many books in a year."

Romance? YA?

As a DNF Counts As Read person, I want to clarify that I don’t DNF books just to cheat out a big number. If I attempt a book, it’s because I WANT to read it and expect to like it. If it doesn’t work for me, then I still count it as read because I read enough of it to know it’s not working for me. Rules around what “counts” are arbitrary and personal to the reader. I’m not in competition with anyone. I just don’t waste time on books I’m not enjoying. Life is too short, and my TBR is too long. 😁

Matty wrote: "Do you include your DNF as read books? I spent a week getting 63% into Jade City and I honestly don’t care how it ends."

I do. I even write a short review. I want others to know why I stopped.

Becky wrote: "Regarding the what's "enough" question, I don't have any guideline or rules around this, personally. I've DNF'd a book at 4% of 600+ pages, and I've DNF'd at like 80% after something like 40+ hours of audiobook.

When it stops working for me, or I stop enjoying it, I'll stop reading unless it is out of spite to really shred it...."

I'm NOT saying DNF is bad. I do it as well, in two flavors, the "I hate this/it bores me" variety and the "I can see the quality here but it's not hitting me right now" one. I'll usually come back to the second one in time, so that's more of an DNF-TryLater vs the first type which is DNF-HellNo.

But a 4% book IS NOT 'read' by any reasonable definition. Neither is a 50% book. When someone says "I read BOOK" the common assumption is that they read all of it. They finished.

As I said above, I don't care how folks categorize their books for personal purposes, but words do have meanings so when talking to others - in reviews, etc - you can't credibly say "I read BOOK" if you only read part of it. Doing that is misleading. If I review a book I didn't finish, I mention that I didn't finish and why, e.g. "Got to page 120 and the main character was too much of an idiot for me to continue..." or whatever. But I'm not claiming that I read the book. I didn't. I read part of it.

It doesn't matter for personal things (though I'd find it confusing to have partially read books on a Read shelf and don't see a reason I'd not just put the on a DNF shelf but again, personal choice.)

Becky wrote: "If it doesn’t work for me, then I still count it as read because I read enough of it to know it’s not working for me..."

Dj wrote: "Matty wrote: "I would say anything over 50% is fair game to mark as read. Since you have read enough to state clearly why you didn't finish a book that you started...."

Why not just categorize it as "DNF"? I just don't understand the motivation to call a partially read book "read" vs "DNF" - there's no shame in not finishing a book. Maybe I just like clean categories and something partially read does not mean you read it, it means you abandoned it. Which is fine.

Rick, I agree with you. But I don't think we're going to change minds here. You (all of you) are invited to join my (usually very quiet) group 'More than Just a Rating' in which we discuss these concerns and those related.

(edit: not that we're trying to change minds... it's just interesting to try to understand others' points of view....)

a.g.e. montagner wrote: "Finally I understand how people manage to "read" so many books in a year."

I don't count DNFs as Read and I still read over 200 books a year and that's not counting individual books in Delphi Collected Works from an author (I finished Zane Grey last year and I'll finish L.M. Montgomery this year)

I feel like there might be a slight miscommunication here. People aren't saying they go around claiming to have read the books they've DNFed, all they're saying is that they mark these books read on GR for their own purposes. I haven't ever come across anyone who said "Yeah I've read that" instead of "Yeah I DNFed that".

As I said above, I personally only mark a book read if I've technically read it, meaning either my eyes or ears have experienced all the words, but I have no problems whatsoever with other people marking them as read at any point. I do agree that claiming that you've read the book if you haven't is sus, but to me that's an entirely different thing. There are people who haven't even tried a book yet claim to have read it, so why would DNFs play a role in this at all, isn't it easier just to mark things as read for example after watching an adaptation if you want to cheat? Also who would they be trying to fool? We all use GR (and other ways of tracking) in wildly different ways, and that's absolutely fine! We're not trying to please anyone else here, just ourselves :)

In short, use GR how you want to use it, do what makes sense for what you're trying to achieve.

oh, yeah, in conversation I wouldn't say I'd read a book I didn't finish. It's just for if I want to "count" it in my challenges. I don't count books on my dnf shelf or do not try shelves or even my "read but short" shelf; if it's one I gave it a good shake and think that I've done enough to feel it counts, I count it. But yes, I also say where I noped out, for my own record mostly.

(edited for typos)

Also if we're going to have consternation or dismay, I'd love it if folks asked questions instead of making assumptions, that's a much more interesting way to have conversations!

Anna wrote: "I feel like there might be a slight miscommunication here. People aren't saying they go around claiming to have read the books they've DNFed, all they're saying is that they mark these books read o..."

I guess as someone who reads a lot of books, the implied (even if it was just a joke) feeling from the comment I responded to was a bit offputting. Apologies if it was a joke

and it doesn't bother me how or when people mark their books as Read. I seldom don't finish books (it was agonizing reading Thus Spake Zarathustra A book for all and none) so I guess I'm still a completionist.

I only mark books that I completely finished as "read" but I am bad about sticking with a book to the end even if it almost kills me. I'm not sure that I recommend my approach. My wife and I listened to an audiobook on our recent road trip and we were maybe 15-30 minutes short of finishing it when we got home, but I didn't count it until I checked out the book on Libby and read the ending. It's the only book I've marked read this year since I'm wading through 1400 page Les Misérables. I'm 8 books behind compared to last year which is amusing. So, don't be like me!

It drove me crazy when Victor Hugo would go off on tangents in Les Misérables. I remember one in particular lasted 100+ pages.

Sorry! I just went on a tangent in this thread :)

I used to have a personal rule that >50% in and I DNF, it was in the read stack. But relatively recently I made it to 43% and marked it as read and reviewed. In that book's case, that was the longest 43% ever. So I think it just depends.

Michelle wrote: "It drove me crazy when Victor Hugo would go off on tangents in Les Misérables. I remember one in particular lasted 100+ pages."

I love the musical.

I won't read the book, because of what I've heard about all the tangents.

Becky wrote: "Yeah, of course. They were surprisingly squishy. :D"

Yay squishy!

***

Back to the actual topic, yeah... what a way to choose violence. Oof.

I've never come across someone in discussion say they've read a book they DNFd. They'll say, like, i tried to read it, or started to read it, but it was so awful i would rather gouge my eyes out instead of finishing,...

But for goodreads purposes? Sure, I'll include it because it literally hurts nothing and nobody.

Ok, it can easily 'hurt' a potential reader. Say you get to 50% or more. You don't finish. You give it a low star rating. You don't review it.

How is the potential reader to know if the book is worth reading or not? Maybe it redeems itself?

Granted, this doesn't apply to books that have lots of other reviews, but it certainly applies to a lot of books that I consider reading.

I just like explaining why I didn't finish. Maybe it's something that would affect another reader. Another reader still has the choice.

Kirsten wrote: "I just like explaining why I didn't finish. Maybe it's something that would affect another reader. Another reader still has the choice."

Thank you for explaining. That is best, imnsho.

Kirsten wrote: "I just like explaining why I didn't finish. Maybe it's something that would affect another reader. Another reader still has the choice."

Yes- this exactly.