2025 Reading Challenge discussion

This thread is to discuss Chivalry in Westeros: The Knightly Code of A Song of Ice and Fire by Carol Parrish Jamison.

Pages: 218 pages

Length: 1 month (April)

Participants: SarahKat, Jill, Rebecca

Everyone reads at their own pace during a Buddy Read. Because participants can be at different parts of the book at different times, it is extremely important to mark spoilers so that the book is not ruined for someone who is not as far along as others!!!

Mark spoilers by placing {spoiler} before the text and {/spoiler} after the text but use the < and > instead of the { and }.

When are you ladies starting this one? I can start any time.

I’m planning on starting this evening.

I can start it whenever. I imagine I'll read it at a little slower pace that I would some books on my list for this month, so I can read it a chapter or two a day alongside my other books.

Chapter One

I’m very interested in learning more about the concept of medievalism. I did read one ASOIAF-related book that hit on the concept, but it was pretty superficial, so I’m eager to see where this one goes. The comparisons of Martin’s work to classics like Mallory is already intriguing.Anyone who knows me knows that I’m already cheering for the fact that this is book rather than show centered.

The discussion of the characteristics that make up knightly virtues and the way Martin critiques those virtues got me immediately. As a fan of Brienne and Jaime, this pushes all my buttons. Brienne, in my opinion ( along with her ancestor Dunk), is as close to the ideal knight as you’ll find in Westeros (even though she’s not actually a knight—well, neither was Dunk). She’s come to the point where, like Jaime, she’s discovered how difficult it is to keep all your vows, and it’s the storyline I’m most interested in seeing resolved in TWOW.

I’ve always just seen spellings such as “Ser” and “maester” as being part of the fantasy genre. The discussion here about why Martin makes these choices has really given me food for thought! (Also, though it’s not mentioned here, I feel compelled to point out that “j’aime” is French for “I love.” Martin has denied being aware of this when he named the character, but I believe the author doth protest too much.)

I read the prologue and am excited that Jamison is going to be spending time comparing Martin's work to Malory's work. I feel like that's really going to prime the Le Morte d' Arthur read this summer.

Finished chapter one and really enjoyed the discussion of Martin's use of the word group "chivalry." Part of me wonders how intentional it was on Martin's part--even though I know that doesn't matter--an unconscious usage of the words might convey more of Martin's actual feelings about chivalry.

Also really was tuned into Sansa's journey as described in chapter one. Her loss of innocence about knights and men is one of the storylines of the book that really speaks to me.

I'll probably start this tomorrow or Thursday. I've had company the last few days :)

Read chapter two today. Really appreciated the collection of myths, legends, and rumors orally spreading throughout Westeros. It reminded me of things in the series that I had forgotten!!

Rebecca wrote: "I read the prologue and am excited that Jamison is going to be spending time comparing Martin's work to Malory's work. I feel like that's really going to prime the Le Morte d' Arthur read this summer."

I just finished the preface as well and was pleased to see Malory mentioned as well! I kind of figured it would be. Arthurian legend is kind of big on chivalry.

Jill wrote: "Chapter One

I’m very interested in learning more about the concept of medievalism. I did read one ASOIAF-related book that hit on the concept, but it was pretty superficial, so I’m eager to see wh..."

I also love that this follows the book rather than the show. There are very few show-only examples, and most of them are from past where Martin has written. I liked the reasoning for the change in spellings as well, but like you thought it was just a nuance of the world, to separate it from reality.

I also liked that chapter 2 has a breakdown of a ton of the oral histories of Westeros, half of which I had forgotten about.

Midway through chapter five, and I’m beginning to feel that the rules of chivalry are set up so that no one can perfectly keep them, and so that everyone who partakes in the system ends with guilt.

On another note, I’m almost midway through A Song for Arbonne and enjoying reading this at the same time, as it’s a medieval fantasy that is really caught up in the themes of courtly love and honor. I couldn’t have picked a better pairing with this book. Yay to the unintentional pairings.

Almost midway. SMH. 🤦🏻‍♀️ I’m actually 3/4 of the way through A Song for Arbonne.

I finished chapter 5. I thought the Loyalty chapter was interesting. I think it's definitely the hardest part of chivalry. When one loyalty directly opposes another. ASOIAF has a ton of this.

You are right Rebecca, I think the rules of chivalry are almost unattainable. This book gives a lot of examples of the "most" chivalrous in different areas but all of them fall short of perfection. I guess it would be up to whoever is judging the characters on which aspect is the most important to adhere to and which are less-so.

Chapter Two (I’m so behind; darn you, real life)
I’ve really enjoyed the discussion of songs passing down the history of Westeros and how the history can become distorted as a result. I would have enjoyed more discussion about class differences—songs and stories are the only ways the small folk really have to learn their history since they do not have access to books and are never taught to read. I was surprised that there was no discussion here of “The Rains of Castamere,” an example of a lord glorifying his horrific actions in order to shape public opinion of himself and his House. Let’s face it—much of Tywin’s reputation comes from the impact of the story told in that song.

Chapter Three
I enjoyed this one very well, but I had some of the minor issues I had with it as I had with the previous chapter. Mostly I continue to think that the analysis would be stronger with more analysis of class differences as well as more discussion of gender differences. To use the obvious examples think about how much would be changed if Septa Mordane had given Sansa and Arya the same kind of literature to read that their brothers had access to.

I finished this one today, and I find your comments interesting, even though I haven't stopped to comment much myself.

On chapter two, I have to admit that the things that most captured my attention was oral tales and the sorting of truth from fiction. It's so hard to figure that out sometimes, even when we can use the written word and other things to verify. Harder still for an oral culture, and that's something I've never thought about before.

On chapter three, I think I had not thought about the meta-ness of written legends and traditions in fantasy novels in general. I really enjoyed (and I don't remember if it's in chapter two or three) the comparison of the expansive backstory and myths and legends with the same types of myths and backstories that Tolkien employed.

As for your mention of gender and class differences, chapter eight is dedicated in large measure to the role of women in medieval romance and culture, so I think you'll find that helpful. Also, Jamison, at some point, does discuss class differences in a way that I think sheds some light on why those differences are not discussed more throughout the book.

Rebecca,
Great! I’ll look forward to getting to that chapter on gender, especially.

My brother is a huge Tolkien fan, so though I’ve never made it past The Hobbit, I’ve been subjected to lectures on Tolkien since we were teens. (And now he has to put up with my blathering on about Martin, so we’re even.). It’s fascinating to look at how Martin has been influenced by Tolkien’s writing and where he chooses to go in a very different direction.

Chapter Four (slowly catching up)

This chapter was fascinating to me, both in terms of the concept of franchise itself and in how so many characters in ASOIAF believe in that principle whether they live up to it or not. I keep thinking about how Jaime glorifies the Kingsguard of his youth (especially his Arthur Dayne fixation) and how he believes he is personally responsible for the Kingsguard’s decline. (Jaime, I love you, but don’t you think Robert and Cersei share some of the blame? )

I was thinking of "The Rains of Castamere" when reading that part too! Definitely swayed the telling of that story. I do think it's interesting that the songs were always changed. They go through lots of minor changes until it reaches the version almost everyone has heard. And I'm sure that's different even in different locations?

I agree it doesn't talk about class as much, probably because as it points out, almost all of the POV characters are noble so there's not on-the-page insight.

I'm on the last chapter now. Hoping to finish tonight (Life argh!)

The Vengeance chapter was another favorite. I love seeing all the blood feuds laid out in one place like that. It would be even better if there was a giant map showing who hates whom.

As I've gotten further into the book I really appreciate the author's strict adherence to the books rather than the show, and she really doesn't assume very much outside of what is written in Martin's works. It's a very well-put-together book.

I have noticed some typos or errors in characters' that are driving me crazy. At one point it refers to Tyrion's niece, Margaery (pretty sure it means Myrcella). And I just passed a paragraph that repeatedly referred to "Victorian" Greyjoy. Should be Victarion. But. Oh well.

SarahKat,
I noticed the confusing Myrcella with Margery. I didn’t catch the mistake on Victarion one, but I did catch a reference to Val as Mance’s widow. First, she’s sister of Mance’s late wife; she’s not married to Mance’s. Second, as far as we know, Mance is still alive.

I agree with your point that the author may have centered on the highborns since that’s who most of the point-of-view characters are. However,several of the characters (notably Arya) spend so much time along the small folk that the potential for discussion about them is certainly there.