Play Book Tag discussion

I am currently reading a newly published book that is set some undefined time in the future. It is dystopian fiction. I see that several readers have also tagged it as fantasy. I'm intrigued by this. This particular book seems grounded in reality.

For those of you who really like Fantasy books, how do you view dystopian fiction?

Fantasy would be a stretch. I would include it under specualtive fiction.

I have never given this much thought Holly, dystopian not being a genre I care much for. However, your question brings me to a decision. As an avid reader of Fantasy, I would tend to say no, this is not true fantasy. Why? Well, because who knows what the world will become in 2060 (or beyond, or earlier than that?). Things written about the future could very well come to be. Some dystopian, I would likely be willing to classify as Science Fiction though.

edited Agree with John, Speculative is another tag I might use for it.

John and Joanne, thanks for your comments. As this particular book is grounded in reality, I would not categorize this as Fantasy either. Speculative seems to fit it. Yet, I wanted to ask, in case I am missing something.

The book also features a charming romance. I thought there was a possibility of it fitting this month's tag. ;0)

I've heard this -
Literary/contemporary fiction is about things that could happen
Sci-fi/climate fiction is about things that haven't happened yet
Fantasy is about things that can't happen (magic, paranormal, etc.)

I just read A Taste of Gold and Iron, which is fantasy, but the only magical things were a kind of witch that can tell if people are lying, and a talent some people have to tell what kind of metal is in a coin just by touching it. Neither of them was essential to the story. But the society and culture was different from any particular Earth one, so I guess that's why it's Fantasy. Some fantasy is alternate history, like books by Guy Gavriel Kay.

GR readers are notoriously terrible about assigning tags, such as putting historical romance from any era under Regency, or even putting Fiction or Nonfiction wrongly on a book they could easily check.

Dystopian is an extremely broad genre that often crosses. There are few books I'd shelve both fantasy and dystopian, though, but then many dystopian books aren't scifi, either, they're just dystopian even if set in the future. I went through a personal dystopian challenge one year at some point, but have read dystopian novels since I was a kid.

My definition of scifi is different than Robin's, and this happens among scifi readers--to me scifi has to have one or more of the following:

fictional science or technology based on it or science/tech used for impossible things (or at least impossible in the foreseeable future)

space travel currently impossible OR used in something that we can't do yet (eg The Martian for the second one)

life on other planets either human or not

anything with extraterrestrial beings on earth

Anything where AI becomes "alive" with its own thoughts

@Robin, Before I joined Goodreads, I seldom thought about genres. I just used the categories for books provided by the public library: fiction, nonfiction, biography, etc. Now on GR, I've gotten an education about all the types of genres there are. It's interesting to me how people choose to assign a genre to what they're reading.

The genres overlap and blend, of course, and we all have to trust our own judgements.

To me, Fantasy needs to have fantastical elements.

@Karin, the book that I'm reading also has several SciFi tags, which I guess I disagree with. The book doesn't have any of the elements you describe.

I often see Fantasy/SciFi as a combined tag. Sometimes this fits a particular book, but often it does not. I know that Fantasy and SciFi get lumped together, but to me, they're not at all the same.

This gets back to Robin's comment that many GR readers are notoriously terrible about assigning tags.

We have to trust our own judgement.

This reminds me of discussions about Handmaid’s Tale. I think Atwood described it as speculative, and said every element of the story actually happened at some time in history, somewhere in the world. It ended up with a lot of science fiction tags just because it felt futuristic to many people (and was consistent with the scientific fact of declining fertility rates). It also has a lot of fantasy tags (the cover and costumes probably helped).

@Nancy, I haven't read "Handmaid's Tale." What you wrote about it seems to be a good illustration of our discussion here. It's interesting.

I always looked at it as speculative fiction as an umbrella category that includes science fiction and fantasy plus a couple other sub-categories that don't fit into those (dystopian, alternate history, etc.). But I do often see dystopian lumped in with science fiction.

Holly R W wrote: "@Karin, the book that I'm reading also has several SciFi tags, which I guess I disagree with. The book doesn't have any of the elements you describe.

I often see Fantasy/SciFi as a combined tag. S..."

Yes, people often use this as a combined tag. That said, I do think there is scifi that includes fantasy in it in the broader term.

Often books have mixed genres as well such as one where there was space travel using large animals as ships (can't think of the name of that trilogy off the top of my head.)

Cora wrote: "I always looked at it as speculative fiction as an umbrella category that includes science fiction and fantasy plus a couple other sub-categories that don't fit into those (dystopian, alternate his..."

I agree that speculative is an umbrella category. Dystopian can be as well, since there are so many kinds of them, IMO.

NancyJ wrote: "This reminds me of discussions about Handmaid’s Tale. I think Atwood described it as speculative, and said every element of the story actually happened at some time in history, somewhere in the wor..."

Speculative, not scifi, IMO. Atwood has written scifi, but that's not one. Her Maddaddam trilogy was a combination of things including scifi due to GMO animals, etc.

Holly R W wrote: "@Nancy, I haven't read "Handmaid's Tale." What you wrote about it seems to be a good illustration of our discussion here. It's interesting."

Your book does sound consistent with a lot of fantasy books that are set in worlds that are reminiscent of medieval or historical times, but with some fundamental difference (like technology). It seems like that formula has endless possibilities, in a mad libs sort of way. A writer might have a penchant for romance or magic, but pick different eras, cultures, climates, technology, creatures, sci-fi elements, crises, occupations, and literary influences to come up with a new way to tell an old story. Add social commentary too to show the evils of totalitarianism, consumerism, colonialism, forced conformity, or the dangers of viruses, fake news, climate change, AI, etc.

With all these possibilities, it’s a wonder we can still find great books about realistic people.

@Cora, thanks for your comments. I see Speculative as an overarching category too, with the genres you mention included in it. It's an interesting discussion.

NancyJ wrote: "Holly R W wrote: "@Nancy, I haven't read "Handmaid's Tale." What you wrote about it seems to be a good illustration of our discussion here. It's interesting."

Your book does sound consistent with ..."

@Nancy, Well said! You have me smiling about "it's a wonder we can still find great books about realistic people." In case you're wondering, I'm reading I Cheerfully Refuse by Leif Enger. So far I really like it, probably because it's centered around an extremely kind-hearted man.

Holly R W wrote: "NancyJ wrote: "Holly R W wrote: "@Nancy, I haven't read "Handmaid's Tale." What you wrote about it seems to be a good illustration of our discussion here. It's interesting."

Your book does sound c..."

Oh I just saw that! I like him. It would be a nice contrast to my recent reading. (I need to watch out for horror tags.)

I will come back and read all the discussion here but I just had to laugh when I saw this because my book club - Feminerdy Book Club which reads and discusses fantasy and scifi from a feminist and gender perspective - have been hotly, passionately debating what makes something a fantasy vs. scifi or something else and there is zero agreement. I consider Dune pure fantasy whereas another in the group insists it is pure SciFi. I insist Gene Wolfe wrote scifi and others insist it is fantasy.

Truth: most are a mix of multiple subgenres and genres. I once found this definition of What is Fantasy from one of our faves, Holly:

Fantasy is silver and scarlet, indigo and azure, obsidian veined with gold and lapis lazuli.
Reality is plywood and plastic, done up in mud brown and olive drab.
Fantasy tastes of habaneros and honey, cinnamon and cloves, rare red meat and wines as sweet as summer.
Reality is beans and tofu, and ashes at the end.

Written by George R.R. Martin

Oh and I actually believe SciFi is just a subgenre under Fantasy. As are Speculative Fiction, Dystopia and all the xxxpunks being created. Most books mix multiple genres - Detective/SciFi - The Mimicking of Known Successes - Fantasy Romance and on.

Theresa wrote: "I will come back and read all the discussion here but I just had to laugh when I saw this because my book club - Feminerdy Book Club which reads and discusses fantasy and scifi from a feminist and ..."

@Theresa, your comments put a smile on my face. I love George R.R. Martin's words - and will pass them along to my sister and a friend who will find them delightful.

And maybe, the book I'm reading might prove to be a fantasy after all. This evening, I got further along in the book. All of a sudden, it began to change in tone and feel. We'll see...

I finally had an opportunity to read through the entire discussion - very interesting! Holly - you posted a really good discussion topic!

Adding my 2 cents...

Tagging - I like only having a single page of active shelves going here on GR so I don't much have subgenres or even a lot of general genres tags. Frankly, everyone is idiosyncratic in how they shelve - what purpose a tag is to serve for him/her. That's my approach. I have a Fantasy and a SciFi shelf. I have tagged books both. I've also tagged them at the same time detective, historical mystery and romance and historical fiction. Even others like francophilia if it is set or references France in some way. Some like Master of Djinn are also tagged Middle East and, if I still have the shelf, Egypt because it's set in an alternate history Egypt.

I've also noticed that a lot of SciFi set in a future world with advanced techonology even aliens and set in outspace feels like past eras in our history - medieval like Pern in Anne McCaffrey's series with engineered dragons, time travel, and alien life forms, and especially the books of Gene Wolfe which use as urban towers abandonned space ships from the past. In many cases the reversion is deliberate - a reaction to a world gone bad due to tech - Psalm for the Wild-Built has this feel. It all feels very fantasy to me, sometimes more than SciFi but still SciFi.

I do put dystopian and apocalyptic - Station Eleven for example - as SciFi. Also Steampunk (which feel historical fiction), alternate history, time travel. But I likely also tag them something else.

So how do I decide to tag something only fantasy or only SciFi and not both of those? It's a crap shoot - how I feel after reading the book or how it is promoted if its just going on my TBR. Unless I'm in a challenge, I rarely look at how anyone on GR has tagged a book. I will say that for me:

SciFi -
Requires something futuristic or otherworldly in science or tech or outspace way.
Or, has aliens from other planets - Ilona Andrews' Clean Sweep initially felt purely fantasy - magic and werewolves and vampires and witches - set in contemporary Texas. Then you learn that the Inn is a safe house for interplanetary travel by the inhabitants of each planet's inhabitants in the solar system - who happen to be werewolves and demons and vampires - each with own planet. Ummm ... for me the only answer is that it is both Fantasy and Sci Fi.
It does not need to have advanced tech
My gut tells me it is scifi.

Fantasy - I have to agree with GRRM's quote I posted. It's myth and legend and folklore and magical abilities, a rich tapestry.

Bottom line: I don't really care how it is defined as a genre - I actually believe that breaking into genres is not effective and is in fact primarily a way to market to a specific audience and, in the case of speculative fiction and romance/chicklit/women's fiction, marginalize authors away from main stream and awards and big money and advertisting bucks, which is white male author dominated in far too many areas of publishing and recognition.

Romance - that's always having to be defended as a legitimate quality genre - no new arguments there and has been going on for generations of readers and writers. How many of you won't pick up a book because it's published by Harlequin as a romance? Yet it could very well be a book you will enjoy immensely and is actually written by an author you love in a different genre, even Literary Fiction, just under a pseudonym so as not to tarnish their reputation or alienate their fans. Nora Roberts adopted a pseudonym when she started writing paranormal futuristic detective stories. Fans of her J.D. Robb 'in death' series likely never read her romance novels although the romance readers mostly do read her J. D Robb books. The high quality of her writing is the same in each genre.

But speculative fiction - this one really is problematic. If you look back over the authors considered the core of this genre, you will see they are POC, #OwnVoices, Women, or their plots revolve around themes of suppression, marginalization, racism but in a created world - N.K. Jemisen's Broken Earth Trilogy is an example. Had a white man written those books they would not be categorized as speculative fiction. In fact her 3rd Hugo acceptance speech - which is brilliant by the way - is about this. The white male author SciFi establishment relegated and still relegates those authors to 'speculative fiction' and frankly it bothers me to use the term because of it. So I don't very often.

I really try very hard not to dismiss a book because it's considered a certain 'genre' - I say I dislike horror - but yet I love gothic which is horror. I claim not to be a fan of SciFi yet I've read and have on my TBR tons - I just don't really like ones set too much in space and a future with aliens. Of course, there's my crush on Murderbot... that contradicts it all.

In the end, it's as everyone said here: make your own decision. I would simply add -- or not - you don't have to categorize into one single genre.

@Theresa, I've read your post twice to be sure I got everything you're saying. I do think that each one of us has developed a system of classifying books that works for us.

For years, I didn't give a thought to the kinds of books I was reading. If I found an author I liked, I tended to read all of his/her books. When I first came to Goodreads and noticed readers' shelves, I was bemused by them. Gradually, I developed shelves of my own. Now, I find that they help me to locate books I'm thinking about, especially since I tend to forget titles.

I started out with a combined Fantasy/SciFi shelf. But, now I have those books divided, as to me, they're often different. I think George R.R. Martin's remarks are a good explanation for Fantasy. To me, SciFi has a more scientific bent, encompassing science, space explorations and A.I. However, as you say, sometimes a book will blend the two genres.

I do think that many books are a combination of styles and genres. After all, creativity doesn't pigeon hole itself. We'll all keep reading and looking for books that speak to us.

Our discussion here has reminded me of Shel Silverstein's Poem.

Zebra Question

I asked the zebra
Are you black with white stripes?
Or white with black stripes?
And the zebra asked me,
Or you good with bad habits?
Or are you bad with good habits?
Are you noisy with quiet times?
Or are you quiet with noisy times?
Are you happy with some sad days?
Or are you sad with some happy days?
Are you neat with some sloppy ways?
Or are you sloppy with some neat ways?
And on and on and on and on
And on and on he went.
I'll never ask a zebra
About stripes
Again.

I shelve books on GR only for myself. For years, the only categories I used were Read, Owned, and Want to Read (which means I don’t own it.). I only added a few more in the last couple years because of various games. I have a category I call Magical Worlds, which includes fantasy. I have a category called Amazing Women, which includes fiction and nonfiction. But when I add books, I rarely think to put them in shelves. I can see that it would be handy to search for books with a certain tag, but they wouldn’t necessarily match the GR tags.

Organization isn’t my thing. Years ago, I took a class at work on that. It was before everything was on line, and the presenter told us to make folders for different subjects. If we thought we wouldn’t remember where to find things (is the file named Invoices, Billing, or Accounting?), she said to make additional files with cross references. Like - Invoices - See Billing. I thought, “If I were the kind of person who made cross-referenced folders, I wouldn’t need this class!”

I am pretty sure a big part of my aversion to lots of shelves here is that as a lawyer files are critical and need subdividing. Once it was all paper - now it is on computer. I have 2 unrelated complex litigations with so many files, sub files, sub-sub files.

There is truth to the adage: cobbler's children go without shoes!

Holly R W wrote: "@Theresa, I've read your post twice to be sure I got everything you're saying. I do think that each one of us has developed a system of classifying books that works for us.

For years, I didn't gi..."

The last line says it all. Recently, somewhere on GR's I was reading a conversation about Anne McCaffery (probably in my fantasy group). She wrote The World of Pern series, which many classify as Fantasy. McCaffery commented one time "I never wrote a Fantasy, in my life".

Joanne wrote: "Holly R W wrote: "@Theresa, I've read your post twice to be sure I got everything you're saying. I do think that each one of us has developed a system of classifying books that works for us.

For ..."

Yes! In fact it was reading the first of her Pern series the sparked the Feminerdy Book Club debate that has continuing ever since! I even pulled out that quote!

Robin P wrote: "Organization isn’t my thing. Years ago, I took a class at work on that. It was before everything was on line, and the presenter told us to make folders for different subjects. If we thought we wouldn’t remember where to find things (is the file named Invoices, Billing, or Accounting?), she said to make additional files with cross references. Like - Invoices - See Billing. I thought, “If I were the kind of person who made cross-referenced folders, I wouldn’t need this class!”.."

LOL! And I'm a cataloguer! (It's one of my many hats at work, anyway. My first one.) So, right off the bat I was tagging things all over the place. It's like subject headings.

Joanne wrote: "The last line says it all. Recently, somewhere on GR's I was reading a conversation about Anne McCaffery (probably in my fantasy group). She wrote The World of Pern series, which many classify as Fantasy. McCaffery commented one time "I never wrote a Fantasy, in my life". ..."

Really? Dragons aren't fantasy? Hmmmmm

LibraryCin wrote: "Joanne wrote: "The last line says it all. Recently, somewhere on GR's I was reading a conversation about Anne McCaffery (probably in my fantasy group). She wrote The World of Pern series, which man..."

Dragons in PERN are not fantasy -- they are genetically engineered. Not robots but created by humans.

Theresa wrote: "I will come back and read all the discussion here but I just had to laugh when I saw this because my book club - Feminerdy Book Club which reads and discusses fantasy and scifi from a feminist and ..."

Dune--ah, I don't like this book, but I can see why it's so hotly disputed! Given that there is interplanetary space travel using technology I go with a scifi-fantasy blend on this one :). But of course those who side with scifi only are thinking of that life form as science fiction, whereas I see that as fantasy.

Holly R W wrote: "Our discussion here has reminded me of Shel Silverstein's Poem.


Zebra Question


I asked the zebra
Are you black with white stripes?
Or white with black stripes?
And the zebra asked me,
Or you ..."

I like that poem!

Theresa wrote: "LibraryCin wrote: "Joanne wrote: "The last line says it all. Recently, somewhere on GR's I was reading a conversation about Anne McCaffery (probably in my fantasy group). She wrote The World of Per..."



The dragons were genetically engineered from little dragons, though. They still started out as dragons aka fire lizards, which do not exist in our world. The world of Pern feels like fantasy to me, with the guild halls and low tech way of life, although I realize it's far future on another planet, and so I can see how some might slot it as sci-fi.

I love talking about subgenres! Some subgenres I will get very picky about (if you try to tell me Led Zeppelin was heavy metal, I will get worked up, for example). But others I just embrace the mess.

There are some books that are clearly science fiction, such as Asmiov's Foundation & Wells' Murderbot. There are some books that are clearly fantasy, such as the Lord of the Rings and Snyder's Poison Study series. But so many books fall in that gray area, with fantasy and sci-fi elements intermingled so tightly that I decide not to decide.

Is Gene Wolfe's Solar Series fantasy or sci fi? It FEELS like fantasy, but there are clues scattered throughout that tell us that this is our Earth in the far future. But there is a guy who can give a woman a potion to be beautiful, and give a man a potion to grow into a giant, and a woman can come back from the dead if she's submerged in the right pond, and a magical gem that might be what brought the woman to life, and strange creatures exist that may or may not be alien life. So, is it fantasy? or sci-fi? I don't know!

Same for Leckie's Radch series - it feels like sci-fi, but some of the aliens (primarily the Presge) have abilities that are quite far-fetched and add the fantastical element.

So I have one shelf, "fantasy and sci fi" - they all go there. Speculative fiction is the giant umbrella category that covers everything, and if I had known that term when I first created my shelves, I might have used that instead. But now I'm used to the shelf being alphabetically F, not S, so I'm not changing it.

Nadine in NY wrote: "I love talking about subgenres! Some subgenres I will get very picky about (if you try to tell me Led Zeppelin was heavy metal, I will get worked up, for example). But others I just embrace the mes..."

Hello and welcome, Nadine! I have nothing to add to the fantasy discussion as I am neither an expert on subgenres nor fantasy.

I am originally from upstate and saw Led Zeppelin in Syracuse in 1969, when Robert Plant was such a pretty young thing.

Theresa wrote: "Dragons in PERN are not fantasy -- they are genetically engineered. Not robots but created by humans..."

Thanks for explaining. Guess I missed that when I read the one trilogy.

ETA: Oh, but now I see this: The dragons were genetically engineered from little dragons, though. They still started out as dragons aka fire lizards, which do not exist in our world. The world of Pern feels like fantasy to me, with the guild halls and low tech way of life, although I realize it's far future on another planet, and so I can see how some might slot it as sci-fi.

I certainly thought it was fantasy for the ones I read, but I definitely could have missed things.

Booknblues wrote: "I am originally from upstate and saw Led Zeppelin in Syracuse in 1969, when Robert Plant was such a pretty young thing...."



LOL small world!! LZ stopped touring JUST as I became a teenager, so I missed that boat.