The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

Sara wrote: "I can't help finding the Duke a more sympathetic character than Zuleika. He is vain and ridiculous, but he is trying in some naive and mislead way to follow a code of honor he feels has been laid down for him. Zuleika, however, is motivated by self-aggrandizement and nothing more..."

Actually, so far I think Beerbohm has some sympathy for both characters, ridiculous tho' they may be. It seems Beerbohm is satirizing the way we misuse ideas of love (being slaves to our egos), but neither the duke nor Z are portrayed as really evil or malicious. Stupid, thoughtless, and self-serving, yes.

I agree.

Sara wrote: "I can't help finding the Duke a more sympathetic character than Zuleika."

Oh, definitely.

My favourite quotes so far:

"Are you fond of peasants? My tenantry are delightful creatures" (The Duke, Zuleika Dobson Ch 5)

"...spewing his wit like the effluvium of a sixth grade science volcano. " (Everyman, April 2015.)

Sara wrote: "Clara wrote: "What I find interesting about Zuleika and the Duke's relationship is all the improbability it involves: Zuleika loving him only until he begins to love her, Zuleika's reaction to the ..."


Sara, I agree. The Duke has risen in my estimation of late, while Zuleika has sunk. His ridiculous character traits don't bother me (they make him rather endearing); I just pointed them out because they show the humorous and satirical side of the novel...

Non- Brits might have missed out on the snobbish element of the pronunciation of the name of Duke's family seat; Tanville-Tankerton, pronounced Tavvle-Tackton.

There are many names in Britain, often of Norman origin, which are pronounced differently from the way they are spelt. Those in the know like to frown with smug pity on those who fail to pronounce, for example, Beauchamp as Beecham; Belvoir as Beaver and Heythrop as Hatherup (the latter two being names of fox hunt groups. Don't ask me how I know, but I promise I've never killed a fox in cold blood.)

I remember a similar joke from a Margery Allingham novel (don’t ask me which one), in which a character is named Featherstonehaugh, pronounced “Foon.” Or was it Dorothy Sayers? Classic inter-war mystery novel, in any case.

Abigail wrote: "I remember a similar joke from a Margery Allingham novel (don’t ask me which one), in which a character is named Featherstonehaugh, pronounced “Foon.” Or was it Dorothy Sayers? Classic inter-war my..."

That's briliiant! And a real-life similar example: my parents live near a village called Woolfardisworthy. People call it Woolsy or Woolsery, though that could just be laziness ;-) Devon is fairly laid back.

PS - If this kind of thing floats your boat, here's a massive list of place names with counterintuitive pronunciation: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...

Pip wrote: I promise I've never killed a fox in cold blood..."

Hot blood, on the other hand ... [g]

I actually had to kill a raccoon once. It had gotten into our henhouse, killed several hens, and had gotten itself tucked up into the rafters when my wife went in to collect eggs (scared the you know what out of her) and was not about to go away on its own.

All I had was BB gun, which was not very effective, but I did manage to dispose of it after about a half hour struggle.

We also have foxes here, but I hope I never have to kill one of those -- and since the raccoon episode we have more fully enclosed the henyard, so I hope the issue never arises.

Abigail wrote: "Or was it Dorothy Sayers? ..."

I don't think it was her. I've read all her mysteries several times, and don't recall it. I think I would have noticed.

Pip wrote: "Non- Brits might have missed out on the snobbish element of the pronunciation of the name of Duke's family seat; Tanville-Tankerton, pronounced Tavvle-Tackton.

There are many names in Britain, of..."

Good point Pip, not to mention names of towns like Leicester=Lester, Gloucester=Gloster, Worcester=Wuster, Leominster=Lemster....

Featherstonehaugh is pronounced Fanshaw. Foon is a pun.

And of course for anyone who's read Wolf Hall there's Wriothesley who, on introducing himself, always says "Call me Risely" with the result that Cromwell and his family end up just referring to him as "Call me" behind his back.
i can't remember if this came across so well in the BBC series, but it was one of those little details which I thought was inspired hist-fic writing.

Yes, had forgotten that:)

Sara wrote: "I did appreciate the Hitchcock-like way in which Beerbohm inserted himself into the story, having Zuleika make a reference to sitting next to him at a dinner."

Yes, that was fun! I also thought of Hitchcock and his "blink-and-you'll-miss-them" cameos.

Having read both Sayers and Allingham during my "read-all-the-mysteries-you-can-find" stage, I can't say I remember "Featherstonehaugh;" but, then I've forgotten more things than I actually know anymore. It did trigger a memory of a clever little post-war novel by Phillip MacDonald called The List of Adrian Messenger where the (view spoiler)[ detective almost misses the final victim because he has "Americanized" his English name to its phonetic spelling. (hide spoiler)] I read it years ago, long before I was aware that something like Blenheim might be pronounced Blenum, so it seemed like such a clever device for a novelist.

I'm remembering that there was a movie version, too, which I haven't seen and need to go and find.

MadgeUK wrote: "Pip wrote: "Non- Brits might have missed out on the snobbish element of the pronunciation of the name of Duke's family seat; Tanville-Tankerton, pronounced Tavvle-Tackton.

There are many names in..."

I'm smiling. We have a Leicester and Worcester here in Massachusetts. Pronounced the same as you indicated. Our English roots :)

:) And is Massachusetts pronounced that way. I am sure we would have mashed it up!

MadgeUK wrote: ":) And is Massachusetts pronounced that way. I am sure we would have mashed it up!"

Mashett ;-))

Lol. Mass-a-chew-sits.

Pip wrote: "Non- Brits might have missed out on the snobbish element of the pronunciation of the name of Duke's family seat; Tanville-Tankerton, pronounced Tavvle-Tackton."

All just going to show that the English no longer know now to pronounce English.

:)

I was a bit behind because of work, but should catch up tomorrow.

For these chapters, I don't have anything else to add to what others have posted. Both the Duke and Zuleika are vain, superficial, dislikable people, albeit on slightly different terms. She is merely beautiful, and he merely has money.

I'm actually not as critical of Beerbohm as others are. I think that he portrays them very realistically, if not a bit exaggerated for the humor. But beautiful people are this vain, and wealthy people do think the world revolves around them, and are shocked when people don't fall at their feet.

The fact that the Duke wants to die for such a silly woman just adds to his argument.

Anyone else find this quote interesting/humorous?

"You will find that the woman who is really kind to dogs is always one who has failed to inspire sympathy in men. For the attractive woman, dogs are mere dumb and restless brutes--possibly dangerous, certainly soulless."

Hannah wrote: "Anyone else find this quote interesting/humorous?

"You will find that the woman who is really kind to dogs is always one who has failed to inspire sympathy in men. For the attractive woman, dogs..."

Certainly our modern feelings about dogs (and cats) are much different than the majority of people of this time, but here is another reason not to want to be beautiful. (and please...I am saying this tongue in cheek,no one needs to explain humor to me.)