Support for Indie Authors discussion

Although I know the value of an attractive cover for most retail book sales, I have often wondered how important the cover is for strictly KDP and specifically Kindle Worlds publication.

When I was a kid, I would buy any trash with a Frazetta or Vallejo cover. But now I mostly look at who the author is, what else they've done, the genera, and (with many reservations) the reviews.

Thoughts?

Aye, think of your cover as that hook your casting out for a fish to nibble on. You need to catch their eye. I hate to admit it, but I am guilty of "Book coveritist" where I judge a book before I even open a page just because of the cover. Mine is a mild case, as I can usually work through it, but...some people aren't as able to.

C.B. Matson wrote: "Thoughts?"

I think I could go for a nice grilled cheese sandwich.

Oh, but about covers. Personally, I will give a book a shot, no matter what the cover looks like. But, I have run into a good number of people (some on Goodreads) who will give a long list of things they check out before purchasing a book and the cover is usually the first thing on the list. The part that bothers me is the content of the book is often not mentioned in their list.

I have to agree with the majority, covers are insanely important. If I am browsing for a new book, and the cover is amateurish, looks like it was made in paint with little care or attention, etc, I am going to assume so is the manuscript it represents. As consumers, we are very shallow, looks do matter. Like someone else said, its a first impression, and I am going to judge you as an author based on your cover first.

Sounds harsh, but its honest. I have dropped loads of money of cover art... I am currently redoing my YA series, despite the fact I love my covers, I have been told time and time again they look too dark for the genre and audience I am trying to capture, so its back to the drawing board!

I keep hearing people say that a good cover makes the difference, but that's not my experience. My biggest seller has the most meh cover. My best covers don't get picked up nearly as often.

Christina wrote: "I keep hearing people say that a good cover makes the difference, but that's not my experience. My biggest seller has the most meh cover. My best covers don't get picked up nearly as often."

Subjective point of view, what others consider a good cover might be shit to you.

Well, yes and no. I realize the best eye catching covers that would sell my books would be the uninspired disembodied male torso with the clingy slender female arms wrapped about that I consider crap. That's not quite what I mean though. Go look if you feel the need, but the difference between my good and super bland covers isn't subjective.

Christina wrote: "My biggest seller has the most meh cover."

Same here. "Mr. Meeker" and "Summerwind" both sell fairly well and the covers took about ten minutes each to make and I think they're boring (the covers). "The Asphalt Carpet" has yet to sell a copy and it was the cover I spent the most time on.

My latest book has a cover made from a painting I did years ago, somewhat stylized by Paint.org, and it's my best seller by far. You just never know...

Pregnancy and Men
For my upcoming book, after some tries on my own with basic image that i want on book cover, i decided to go with some paid services for the layouts, found a few artists there, tried a couple of versions and finalized one. But the main drawing that is on my book is created by me.
A few people said it looks kiddish, rest liked it. And now that i am promoting it, a large number of people are interested just because of that image.
so its kind of interesting.
you never know what will work or not, but cover is what makes reader look inside the book, so do give good amount of time deciding on the cover.

Okay... the best suggestion I've heard so far is the grilled cheese sandwich. Mmmm... how 'bout a nice Five Guys cheese burger? Food-porn, not quite ethical, yet so effective. Beats a disembodied male torso, but doesn't quite reach the Frank Frazetta level.

There is no question that an attractive cover will sell a print book, even if it is also available as an e-book. However, I still wonder if that is always true in the case of KDP offerings.

Oh, yeah... if you're not too squeamish, take a look at this collection of cringeworthy covers: Kindle Cover Disasters (http://kindlecoverdisasters.tumblr.com/)

You know, if authors would stop passing around that site, we might be taken a little more seriously. It's petty and bullying.

Wish my book were on that list. :(

Yeah, and I'm always afraid that I'll find one of my covers there. By the way, a couple of those covers weren't all that bad, in my opinion. Calls into question my judgement of covers...

For what it's worth, my guess is that covers are a bit of a threshold phenomenon. At some level a cover just says: "I care" or "I don't". Or maybe: "I care but my taste is ???" Sending the message that you don't care about your work, or that you thought a really amateurish cover is OK, suggests that you think amateurish writing, editing, etc is also OK.

However, I don't advocate indie authors going out and spending a ton of money on a cover. Personally, I don't expect authors to be gifted artists and designers and (as was said elsewhere) we aren't selling covers. (Plenty of horrid traditionally published books have snazzy covers.) But I do consider the what the cover says of the writer and her/his views on what is acceptable in presenting his/her work.

Beyond that one never knows. My co-author has a fantasy novel out there (on KDP) for which we did two covers. When we tested them, the consensus was heavily for one cover (you can still see it here of GR). For over a year, her novel got next to no attention. We recently put up the cover that was "rejected" (and redid the blurb) and now the novel is getting a lot more attention.

The cover probably has something to do with that, but the fact we just released our third novel together may also be having an effect. Keywords are also important for people discovering a book. And maybe the times are just changing.

Finally, different people assign different importance to covers, so how do the people who like to read what a particular author writes feel about covers? Each genre, (I think) has certain expectation regarding covers.

So (bottom line, IMO), covers play an significant role and it varies, but overall, I think they often get too much emphasis.

Ken wrote: "Yeah, and I'm always afraid that I'll find one of my covers there. By the way, a couple of those covers weren't all that bad, in my opinion. Calls into question my judgement of covers..."

And some are bad in a way that would cause me to give them a look.

But...you're a horse is satire. So they're stupid for having it on there.

V.M. wrote: "As for the covers, yes they're subjective and yes, Christina, that site does a lot of damage to us indies.

Which is why it is important to have a cover that could never, ever qualify for that site. Simple as that..."

I think the problem is that any cover can "qualify" for that site. Accepting that such a site has any reason to exist (beyond petty bullying) confers validity on the opinions of the people who run it. And that is a problem.

I think Christina's point was that by referring to that site, we validate the judgement of the site -- not just for the cases where we (as individuals) might personally agree, but across the board -- and maybe we shouldn't be doing that?

Owen's right. I don't like anonymous bullying, which is what that site is. It's no different than the People of Walmart site that makes fun of people basically for being poor or fat.

I am guilty of having purchased books solely because of their covers before, and I'd do it again in a stone-cold heartbeat. I came to know about Robert Asprin, Frank Herbert, and Terry Pratchett because I liked the cover art of the first books of theirs that I bought.

Igzy wrote: "I am guilty of having purchased books solely because of their covers before, and I'd do it again in a stone-cold heartbeat. I came to know about Robert Asprin, Frank Herbert, and Terry Pratchett be..."

That's kind of funny because Asprin is one of my favorites and a massive influence, yet I discovered him quite by accident because of a missing dust jacket. My aunt had passed down some second hand books from my cousins and I saw one with the title Myth Adventures and no cover art because of the previously mentioned missing dust jacket.
Being quite young and really into Greek mythology, I picked up the book and was promptly confused. And then I met Aahz. :)

C.B. Matson wrote: "Oh, yeah...Kindle Cover Disasters"

Mixed feelings on this. I suppose if the author of a book that's being trashed is okay with it, not a biggie. But, there is one place where an author is claiming they have no right to use his cover and the one running the site, basically, laughs about it. True, they're not breaking any copyright laws, but it's obvious the site is there just to bully.

With the sophomoric attempts at jokes about the covers, I'm not sure that the ones running the site have any room to laugh at others' attempts to be creative.

I seem to have hijacked my own thread with the aside about “Cover Disasters.” Never expected such a strong reaction from the group.

I will agree that bullying for its own sake is not good. But if a person has the chutzpa to stand on their own hind legs and post something on the internet (that includes posting to a Goodreads forum, btw), then they should be ready for any slings and arrows that might return their way.

V.M. wrote: “…what the critics do. They bully and trash to feel superior.” I’m not sure I agree. I see the critics more like wolves in the arctic; they keep the caribou herd strong. We novice (myself) and indie writers are like the yearlings of the herd… still easy prey for wolves. Okay, stretched that analogy far enough, but still, there’s gonna be survivors and there’s gonna be woof chow. Here’s hoping we’re all in the former group.

I paged through “Cover Disasters” praying that I wouldn’t find my own crude offerings in the pile. Plenty of snarky captions occurred to me as I pictured my creations featured on that board. Well, let’s stand this one on its head and see what can be learned from the site. “I’m a Horse” is a brilliant satire, but it’s so funny it just has to be there. Wish I'd thought of it and I’ll bet sales exploded after it was featured. Some of the others are less than brilliant. The stories might be good, but I’m unlikely to read any of them (hmmm, maybe “Whorenadow”). Yet they all may have seen a bump in sales. Any publicity, after all.

So I wish we had our own “Cover Disasters” on this forum. Maybe a “Covers: Hot or Not” (yeah, I know, I know) where we could anonymously rate each other’s creations. How can we ever improve if we don’t have critics?

And Dwayne, I agree. We all could write better snarky comments than the sophomoric attempts at jokes featured on that site.

C.B. Matson wrote: "So I wish we had our own “Cover Disasters” on this forum. Maybe a “Covers: Hot or Not” (yeah, I know, I know) where we could anonymously rate each other’s creations. How can we ever improve if we don’t have critics? "

There is a difference between constructive criticism and flat out bullying. The site you posted was created not to help writers see the flaws in their work, but to blatantly seek out work to make fun of.

I post potential covers in my blog and people are welcome to tell me if they are "hot or not". I wouldn't want it done anonymously, though.

C.B. Matson wrote: "I seem to have hijacked my own thread with the aside about “Cover Disasters.” Never expected such a strong reaction from the group."

The forum is set up to support Indie authors, not tear down their work. I'm actually surprised you got such a mild response.

Igzy wrote: "I am guilty of having purchased books solely because of their covers before, and I'd do it again in a stone-cold heartbeat. I came to know about Robert Asprin, Frank Herbert, and Terry Pratchett be..."

This people is why I judge a book by it's cover. Awesome authors, too, if you haven't checked them out and are into the whole scifi/fantasy thing.

V.M. wrote: "*drops monocle*

Why Dwayne, we're not savages here. *sips tea*"

This is what the characters in my upcoming novel keep telling themselves, too. Yet, the jungle drums are getting louder...

My favorite line is where the big, goofy kid says that Captain Kangaroo, Cap'n Crunch and Colonel Sanders have made him too soft to be a savage.

I want people to be shocked if they judge my work by its cover.

Charles wrote: "I want people to be shocked if they judge my work by its cover."

I was. Damn good story in there.

Dwayne wrote: "Charles wrote: "I want people to be shocked if they judge my work by its cover."

I was. Damn good story in there."

And my shorts are selling better than my book. :\

V.M. wrote: "Here's an idea. How about some examples of good ebook covers to inspire people? Here are some helpful tips as well from the professionals."

I bookmarked both. I will look at them soon. I could use a few tips, I'm sure. Thanks V.M.!

I'll just add one comment re: covers that we learned by accident. When people first see your cover on-line it's dinky. So that lovely artwork (which many are) might have just become a mostly featureless blob. This is not a problem for traditional covers, so the design "rules" of traditional covers can lead people astray.

Making a cover that is eye-catching as a thumbnail and looks good large is a challenge. But judge your covers first by the thumbnail -- that's what 99%+ of potential readers will see.

You know, my husband made a good point the other night when I showed him the cover of a book I'm reading. I showed him because I thought the design was clever and cute, which he agreed with, but noted something I hadn't taken into consideration. It worked perfectly as an ebook cover because the design was simple and striking and did not try to look too much like a traditional book cover. It's also really easy to read.
It certainly made me think. For anyone interested, here's the book I'm reading (which is really quite good and by an indie):

V.M. wrote: "Good points Owen and Christina... for ebooks, better make sure your thumbnail version looks good ..."

We do our own covers, and we had a cover concept we really liked for our first book. But we were eager to launch and the concept we liked was just too time consuming. So we decided "screw it" and went with a much simpler idea we could do quickly.

It wasn't until we published and saw the thumbnail that it clicked for us that our "grand idea" would have been a vague unreadable mess. We lucked out (ironically, because we got impatient and are lazy). Some odd lessons there...

I believe that if the book is good it will sell, good or poor cover.

I use a wonderful designer, Digital Donna. She is reasonable too. Good luck. K

Much as it shouldn't happen (maybe), I do believe covers can have an impact on the sale of your book - whether hard copy or ebook, what have you. A good book will benefit from positive reviews and word of mouth (although it's truly sad, how many times on Twitter I've been offered services where any writer can load a ton of fake 5-star reviews for his or her work on Amazon, to up their sales; THANK GOD Amazon has finally instigated their first lawsuit against such rip-off artists!) ... but as someone else here said, the cover is your hook; what often gets initial reaction or attraction.

Just using myself as an example, for me I don't care if it's free, if a book cover of any kind looks like it was done in ten minutes on someone's computer, in Photo Shop, it's a total turn-off for me to read the book. Not trying to sound bad, it's just automatic on my part, like flipping off the switch of interest. So yes, while I think a good or great book will sell, PERIOD, if word catches on, I do feel covers by all means are a factor in getting attention of any kind to your work.

I've seen some really bad books with really great covers. As a reader, if you go by cover alone, you'll screw up big time. But a really, really bad cover probably does indicate a really, really bad book.

Never meant to suggest I go by cover ALONE - unless, yeah, the cover is really godawful. I just think, realistically, it is a factor in the decision-making process for most people.

I think a good cover is incredibly important. It's often the first thing a reader judges your book by. I'll freely admit to picking up books in the bookstore because the cover made me curious. Second thing I do is read the back cover copy. Third thing I do is to read a bit of the book.

It's like the clothes you wear to an interview--we don't like to think we're being judged on our appearances, but we are. If you look like a hot mess, people are going to wonder how much effort you put into other things.

I think composition and good use of color are important for that thumbnail view. I used to do illustration work, and I did my own cover for my recent release, but wow--a standalone painting is not the same as a book cover. I had a lot to learn, and am still learning.

Thank you all for a very interesting and lively discussion. I think that despite the alarums and excursions, my initial question has been thoroughly and honestly answered. the next iteration of Foreworld Saga: The Broken Sky will have a simplified cover that is easier to recognize at a thumbnail size.