Madame's Munchkins discussion

Some may say that the mental ward is similar to a machine carefully managed by Nurse Ratched. Do you support or refute this interpretation? Please provide evidence. Additionally, what methods does Nurse Ratched use to maintain equilibrium in the ward? Give specific examples.

Well I would support the comparison because Kesey blatantly states it multiple times in the book that the ward is like a machine. Nurse Ratched maintains the equilibrium by removing those who oppose or disagree with her. She chased off a multitude of doctors who stood in the way of her philosophy by getting into their heads and haunting them psychologically. She also used "accepted" methods of treatment to get rid of or incapacitate unruly admissions like McMurphy.

Also do you think the Nurse is justified in her actions, seeing as she does keep the ward in order?

John wrote: "Also do you think the Nurse is justified in her actions, seeing as she does keep the ward in order?"

To answer John's question I do think that SOME of her actions are necessary. In order to keep stable control over the ward and its patients, a system of reprimanding is needed. However the tendencies of her and the "blacks" to use techniques parallel to torture seem unnecessary. However, without an effective system, there would be little enforcement of the law. Nurse Ratched and her workers preyed on innocent inmates, ones who could clearly not control their action or were not just not mentally "aware" of what they were doing. Overall, I do feel that at least some of her actions are justified.

I agree that the mental ward is comparable to a machine, a machine kept in order by the tactics of the nurse and blacks. Such a tactic used would be fear, employed by the staff on the acutes, by constantly reminding them of their fate if they don't comply with the rules. Furthermore, the status quo is maintained because most of the patients are feeble, unable and unwilling to do anything to disturb the equilibrium. And any errors within the machine are easily dealt with by sending them for treatment.

Also to johns question, i believe that the majority of the actions of the nurse are justified. We must remember that we are seeing the actions of the nurse and all the other staff members from the point of view of of psychiatric patient. Practices conducted by the staff could be normal practices conducted for the safety of the patient but are portrayed as horrendous procedures conducted on them. As seen in many cases where Bromden seems to exaggerate the extent of what the nurse and blacks do.

I see that there is some debate as to whether Nurse Ratched's actions are justified. I think a lot of this boils down to different views on society- freedom vs order. A major theme explored in the book is liberal freedom championed by McMurphy versus societal order imposed by Nurse Ratched. The author in my opinion, clearly sides with freedom over order (perhaps best shown by his liberal lifestyle) but some people would contest that order is paramount to freedom. My opinion is that this book is a great tool to really teach Americans about what freedom actually is. It is hard to understand the concept of liberty when we are so used to being free and making our own decisions. This book, in the form of the inmates slave-like status really makes one grateful for the liberties that we too often take for granted. Please chime in and add more if you find more examples of Freedom vs. Order/ McMurphy vs Nurse Ratched.

I see how the ward can be compared to a machine, but I have to disagree. A machine works and can be simple, even when it's a complex machine. The process is simple with a result. When a part from a machine breaks it can be replaced and will not work until the part is replaced. The ward however can work, but just not as well as beforehand. Also the ward will work, but it depends on whether or not those working in it will make it work.

I think Julian brings up a good point on the continuous motif of freedom vs. order although I think to be a little more specific we should refer to it as oppression because it isn't necessarily the order of the ward Kessey disproves of its the ways Nurse Ratched chooses to maintain that order.

Who do you believe is the craziest inmate in the ward? How are each of the inmates appearances or early characteristics ironic as the novel progresses. Be specific.

Also, responding to the first post, on page 48 we say a display of Nurse Ratched's power, as "[Big Nurse] triggered something, some acoustic device in the walls, rigged to turn on at the sound of those words coming from her mouth." The Acutes who all admit their psychotic tendencies are also admitting their dependence on the ward and status as subordinates of Nurse Ratched, so much so that it was, "better than she'd dreamed." This shows how Nurse Ratched was a sort of dictator who truly controlled everything that went on in the ward.

Craziest? Perhaps, McMurphy or Ratched???

The craziest in my opinion would have to be McMurphy. He reminds me a lot of the famous and most violent prisoner Charles Bronson who ended up as a mental health patient as well. Actually, as i write this i see that the two are very alike. they both fight too much, have cocky, carefree attitudes and they both spent time in both jail and mental institutions. Lastly they both are people i would not want to aggravate.

I really appreciate the dynamism of a lot of the characters in the novel that Kesey incorporates, with Harding being the prime example. Harding begins as completely devoted to Nurse Ratched's style of government. He knows he is completely oppressed and chooses this voluntarily, as he feels more comfortable with the order of the ward than the uncertainty of everyday life. On page 57, Harding tells McMurphy, "What other reason would we have for submitting ourselves to it, my friend? The staff desires the cure as much as we do," before going on to explain how the inmates all are rabbits, always have been and always will be. Harding's persona is very ironic in the beginning, as he is the intelligent leader of the acutes yet he cedes all his power to Nurse Ratched and fails to think about anything significant. Some would describe his actions as truly insane. He originally opposes McMurphy, but his eventual adoption of McMurphy's ideas and techniques causes him to drastically change, from a follower to a true leader. Even though McMurphy dies at the end of the novel, he does live on- in Harding, Chief, Scanlon. By the end of the novel, you could make the case that its Harding who is the most sane character, as he has taken control of his life. This is one of Kesey's greatest attributes as an author I believe.

I believe that neither nurse Ratched and Mcmurphy are the craziest. Most of the chronics are much out of it then i would say either of them. Their actions are carefully taught out and planned for a reason which doesn't seem something an insane person would do. They both are trying to control the ward and use questionable methods to do so. But out of the two, nurse ratched would be the craziest because of the extent of her actions. the fact that she uses terror, shame and guilt on mental patients to keep the status quo is ridiculous. She identifies the weakness of each patients and uses it to her advantage. While actions by Mcmurphy are also questionable but again not due to him being insane. Its his plan to try and help the patients from the horrors associated to the ward. He uses his gambling skills and social skills to get his way. Even Bromden realizes what Mcmurphy is trying to do, as can be seen by his sacrifice at the end of the book for his fellow mates.

For us reading the book, its easy to say McMurphy or one of the chronics are the craziest because their behavior is thought of as abnormal in our society. However what i believe kesey wants the reader to do is to remove our knowledge of society and just think within the scope of the mental ward. In this case, the "craziest" would be someone like Chief. For example, on page 69, Harding tells McMurphy that dissenters to the nurse's rules are threatened with the possibility of becoming someone like Mr. Ellis or like Ruckly. "Or look at Chief Bromden clutching to his namesake over there." Though to the reader chief is probably the most sane, to those in the ward, who in our eyes are "crazy", chief is an example of how the ward can make you crazy. I think kesey uses this irony to make us rethink about what it is to be "crazy" and "insane" because one of his goals is to convey to the reader that people in mental institutions aren't that much different than "normal" people.

I would have to say that in my own opinion, Nurse Ratched is the craziest of them all. He ability to manipulate everyone in the ward how she sees fit helps her keep tight control over the other inmates. A prime example of this would my Harding. Like Julian quoted, Nurse Ratched was able to manipulate him to live by her strict policies. Another good example would be Ratched's reward system. If the other inmates found out vital and sometimes embarrassing information about the other inmates, they would be rewarded with a extended sleep and a better meal. This kept most of the inmates under her control and away from the fact that they could easily upheave her system. McMurphy helps the other inmates that not only are the nurses not trying to cure the inmates, they are trying to the best of their ability to keep them there and accept that they are being "cured". This I feel TRULY makes Nurse Ratched the craziest one of all.

I have to agree with abe that i really don't find either McMurphy nor Nurse Ratched as crazy or insane. But i think it also adds to what i said before about kesey wanting the reader to rethink what "crazy" and "insane" truly means. Like abe said, both have well thought out actions and their relationship has a classic hero-villain dynamic. However, of course this dynanic takes place in a mental institution. If u look at society as just the mental ward, you would see these two as sticking out from the norm. And if the mental ward was society, they would probably label these two as insane because of their abnormal behavior compared to others in the ward. Our society looks at it as the two of them as the sane who are battling over control of the insane. The mental ward on the other hand sees a battle between two people who are insane. I know what I'm saying is a bit confusing, hopefully im conveying it in a way that makes some sense. Just overall i think kesey capitalizes on the terms crazy and insane to get the reader to think and give our opinions on what it is to be crazy like we're doing right now.