Read Women discussion

This month, our nonfiction selection is a Read around the World - Europe pick: In Defense of Witches: The Legacy of the Witch Hunts and Why Women Are Still on Trial by French-Swiss feminist and journalist, Mona Chollet. The English language version is translated by Sophie R. Lewis, it begins with a forward authored by Carmen Maria Machado. It was first released in French in 2018, but has since been translated into many languages, including English.



Chollet was the chief editor of Le Monde diplomatique from 2007 to 2022. Here's a link to a 2022 interview of Chollet about this book. https://www.bookforum.com/interviews/...

MaryGrace nominated this book and may moderate the discussion. If you're planning to join, let us know.

Thanks Carol!

I'm planning to join in - just got a copy from my local library!
I'm currently reading 2 books at the moment, so will likely join mid-month.

Will try to fit this one in this month. I've had it on my want-to-read list for a while.

I’m up to page 53 and it’s a good one. I highly recommend the audible narrator, if you like audio. It’s available on Spotify to premium members, too.

I finished and am looking forward to hearing everyone else's thoughts on it. One downside of audio is there's no easy way for me to capture quotes and share them, and I forget by the time I get home to look for things. But - some high-level thoughts.

1. Once I read the interview I linked in comment 1, I understood that I shouldn't expect a great deal relating to witches. Here's the quote: "I wanted to write about child-free women and aging women. I couldn’t decide between the two subjects, and neither was satisfying on its own. Then I thought, I could write a book about women who are not socially accepted. I realized that both these kinds of women are, in their own way, witches." And so she does. That made me much happier with the end result than if I'd gone in with my initial expectation, oh, goody - another book where I'll learn even more about witch trials - but now in France. Not.
2. It was a 5* read for me, notwithstanding most of Chapter 4. (just me, on multiple points, not a warning.) I recommend consuming it in as big chunks as you can; the flow of her arguments is more compelling the longer she has to make them to you without interruption.
3. I haven't read a lot of feminist ranting in the last 18 months, so even though most of this is not new to me, it was a super refresher. Plus, I really enjoyed reading an author who isn't either British or American hold forth on these topics. The differentiators were interesting, and I picked up several new-to-me authors to check out.
4. Chapter 1, the Intro, was a bit meandering and way too long for my taste. Chapters 2 - on childfree women, married and single, and 3 - post-menopausal women, were great, screaming, well-organized and -grounded rants. Chapter 4 covers healthcare practices and nature/environment.
5. I could listen to this narrator read the dictionary. I'm less sure that I'd enjoy everything of Chollet's, but I will look for her current book - Reinventing Love: How the Patriarchy Sabotages Heterosexual Relations and see if second time's as good as the first.

p.s. if you ARE interested in witches, historically and globally, I highly recommend Witchcraft: A History in Thirteen Trials by Marion Gibson.

a 2023 YouTube interview of both Chollet and of Gloria Steinem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMFHE... (Note that it doesn't get going until approximately 6 minutes in.)

I enjoyed getting to see Chollet and hear her speak. I'm a long-term Steinem stan, so enjoying her graciousness and clarity is par for the course.

Re France's birthrate, discussed by Chollet in Chapter 2. I was unaware that France's birthrate has generally been the highest in the developed world, even though it continues to decline a little more than 1/2 a percent per year. The UN content is almost difficult to square with other available data, which is interesting in itself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogra...
https://www.un.org/development/desa/p...
https://www.macrotrends.net/global-me...

I wonder how much the choice to be child-free garners societal disapproval worldwide. Anecdotally, it's been acceptable my whole adult life in the US to declare you don't want kids and - again, anecdotally, if you're in a group of women 35 and younger, declaring that you want kids makes you a bit of an outlier and you need to defend your choice. I suspect there's quite a big urban /rural divide on this topic, but I believe it's generally quite common for 20-something couples to be aligned without much angst about not having kids. So one of the most interesting things to me about Chapter 2 was that I sensed Chollet is passionate about justifying and arming young women to be comfortable deciding not to have kids for many reasons, including, supporting their desire to focus on living the lives they want to live, supporting their personal goals - whether career or other passions - that would be impeded by child-raising. As if she needs to move a big rock in France.

That’s my first time when I’m reading a book with this group. I’m in chapter 1 and so far I’m truly enjoying it (I mean, it has a lot of painful details, but there is no way to avoid them in this topic).

Agnieszka wrote: "That’s my first time when I’m reading a book with this group. I’m in chapter 1 and so far I’m truly enjoying it (I mean, it has a lot of painful details, but there is no way to avoid them in this t..."

Great to see you here, Agnieszka. So right about the painful details. I really like her delivery though. It’s not humorous, but there’s enough charisma that she never depressed me.

Carol wrote: "I finished and am looking forward to hearing everyone else's thoughts on it. One downside of audio is there's no easy way for me to capture quotes and share them, and I forget by the time I get hom..."
#1 on your thoughts list Carol convinced me I should join in on this read. I have a wait for the physical book from the library so I downloaded the audio on Hoopla.
I also plan on making some time to check out your links as well.
Thanks for the nudge.

Sophie wrote: "Carol wrote: "I finished and am looking forward to hearing everyone else's thoughts on it. One downside of audio is there's no easy way for me to capture quotes and share them, and I forget by the ..."

It’s truly a great read, Sophie. Can’t wait to read your thoughts on it.

Carol wrote: "I’m up to page 53 and it’s a good one. I highly recommend the audible narrator, if you like audio. It’s available on Spotify to premium members, too."

Carol, thanks for mentioning this!
I have a copy from the library but just checked and there's audio available through Hoopla. I love a good narrator, especially for non-fiction.

I'm not sure I would have gotten through or enjoyed Orbital as much otherwise :)

I’ve started this one as well. A lot of frustrating facts in the intro, yes, one that stood out was out of two villages going through witch purges only one woman remained alive. That’s horrifying.

I just read her remarks on suffixes and the introduction of Ms. in the 60’s. It was so interesting to read about the French reaction and thoughts on madame, mademoiselle, and the proffered Psse. for Princess.

So far, very interesting and entertaining. As much as I do enjoy the audio, I feel like this would be a great one to take notes and quote, so hopefully a digital or hard copy becomes available from my library soon.

Anita wrote: "I’ve started this one as well. A lot of frustrating facts in the intro, yes, one that stood out was out of two villages going through witch purges only one woman remained alive. That’s horrifying. ..."

Yes! Ms was such a lightening rod for conflict for decades. It’s probably difficult for younger (than me) women to believe how offensive it was to many people for women to have an opinion about their names and form of address. It was the precursor battle to the hate some have for pronoun announcements in an email signature.

The childless discussion - I definitely see a rise in the choice to remain childless and the social acceptance of it. I think this is both a generational a cultural opinion. Chollet mentions a drop in American birth rates in 2013, but how it doesn’t really have an effect (on population?) due to immigration.

Taking in the world’s population, I don’t see any sort of population issue arising from people choosing not to procreate.

Anita wrote: "The childless discussion - I definitely see a rise in the choice to remain childless and the social acceptance of it. I think this is both a generational a cultural opinion. Chollet mentions a drop..."

It’s a big issue in any country that is trending at a rate lower than replacement. South Korea is looking at some super big issues. Any country that doesn’t have a safety net for the elderly, but relies on social expectations of daughters and daughter-in-law is facing crisis, too. In the US, if there are more people receiving SS payments than are working/paying in to the SS fund, we also have a big problem. World population can seem fine, but we don’t age as one under one set of social constraints and economic structures. Hope that makes sense.

What an interesting topic, I’m really intrigued! Thinking of different social expectations throughout generations and of course, as you said, Social Security benefits.

I’m in the final part, about aging and older women. I’m finding this book pretty fascinating, and trying to hold off my pre-opinions on diversity, but it seems to be pretty Euro-centric, focusing on France. I enjoy the tidbits on America, of course, but really enjoy reading from a modern French woman’s perspective. Which is fine, it’s her book, I just wonder if she does tackle any diversity issues before the end. So far, I’d already put it up there with some (what I would consider) basic feminist readings. It’s almost like a smaller, modern The Second Sex although Beauvoir does a lot of deep dives.

It’s also made me so curious if there are similar books by other women from different countries (like Korea so I can learn about their birth rate issues) and I know I’m going to end up down a rabbit hole.

Anita wrote: "What an interesting topic, I’m really intrigued! Thinking of different social expectations throughout generations and of course, as you said, Social Security benefits.

I’m in the final part, abou..."

I think all of this is fair, Anita. I don’t recall her contemplating diversity in any meaningful way. It is France-focused. It’s a worthwhile rabbit hole 🤣💕

Here’s a concise take on the crisis in South Korea. https://www.thinkglobalhealth.org/art...

They aren’t alone. But they’re in the worst position globally.

This is a quick read that lays out the economic impact. In the short term, lower fertility rates’ initial goodness but later burden, and the intersection between immigration and birth rates. https://cepr.org/voxeu/columns/confro....

*I’m in the ER with my spouse - probably reading more quickly and less thoughtfully than normal - so if I’ve picked articles that have issues, grant grace, please. (He’ll be fine but we couldn’t get attention to an issue that was increasingly serious.)

Great article, thank you!

I have finished the book and found it informative and enlightening. Since I listened to the audio, it is difficult to quote any specific point that caught my attention. Fortunately my library has a copy and I'm going to pick it up to re-read some parts.

Sophie wrote: "I have finished the book and found it informative and enlightening. Since I listened to the audio, it is difficult to quote any specific point that caught my attention. Fortunately my library has a..."

I totally agree about the hard copy! I love listening to it, but finding that pausing for the quotes just doesn’t work for me in that format. Usually while I’m working it cooking. I’m waiting on my library to have one available. Looking forward to anything you share with us

So this final section on aging and healthcare. Wow. There was just a lot to it. I was astounded at some of the more recent dates for underwhelming women’s healthcare in what should be considered modern and first world countries. It kind of drives home this idea that generally men just don’t like women? I was shocked at a 5 year old having essentially modern medicine FGM in America as late as the 1950’s (if I recall) to cure her of masturbation? A 5 year old? Chollet does touch briefly, but perhaps more often, on the even less quality care given to women of color. Again, a little harder to quote or pin down with an audio. I would recommend Invisible Women: Data Bias in a World Designed for Men for anyone who wants to delve more into this lack of care for women. There’s a section on healthcare but overall the book applies the theory to so many aspects of life.

When she asked where were all the elder feminists, I wondered myself. There must be a new group that has aged into the category unawares. I felt, for the first time, that I might be cusping this group since this final section resonated with me the most. When I was younger the most I cared about healthcare was that I had access to it and women have free choice. I realize now how important it is that women are even heard and represented by their doctors, since so many women’s issues are just now making headway like perimenopause and PCOS or endometriosis.

All in all I loved the information in here and would add it to the canon.

I have just finished the first section and although I found it very rich and extremely well documented, I am also feeling totally overwhelmed by the plethora of information and not sure I will be able to digest it all. What still makes it appealing for me is Chollet’s writing style, which is very flowing and seems quite effortless. I also like the balance between personal anecdotes (like the one of her relationship with a philosopher who wanted to use her as a personal secretary) with more objective facts.

Re-reading the physical book offered a different experience, revealing a wealth of references from various sources. This book provides an intriguing take on the lot of women throughout history, particularly the accusation of their being witches with all sorts of powers when, in reality, they were mostly powerless.
Chollet navigates through the decades of the feminist movement while frequently jumping back to historical centuries of atrocities against women.
As Chollet explores the feminist movement, I reflect on my own experiences in the early 1970s, such as being turned down for credit in my own name. When I was an attendant at a girlfriend's wedding, I was told by her mother, "always a bridesmaid, never a bride." I was barely 21 years old! After reading The Population Bomb, I was convinced I would not have children. When I revealed this to a friend's mother, she severely scolded me, calling me selfish.
Now I look at my grandchildren and the choices they can make thanks to the voices of women who fought for those rights. One granddaughter, in her mid-thirties, recently became a mom by choice without a man in her life. She has a career, and although it's a struggle being far from family, she has no regrets. Her sister, though married, has decided to be childless. Yet another sister, with an advanced degree in engineering, often complains that she is always the one asked to get coffee by her all-male colleagues.
The part of the book that horrified me the most was about the medical care system. Female patients bear the brunt of a "men’s locker-room" scenario. Chollet provides examples, such as comments overheard about women’s bodies while they are under sedation on the operating table, and the experience of a young woman who overheard her gynecologist describing her breasts to a colleague, resulting in laughter. Chollet criticizes the annual gynecological check-up as an "immutable ritual," a "sacred obligation" from puberty onward, arguing that it is about "maintaining surveillance of women’s bodies."
She also cites Marie-Hélène Lahaye, who reported on social media that doctors and students were allowed to internally examine patients while they were unconscious without their consent. Lahaye suggested on Twitter that, if these exams were truly neutral acts, medical students could practice on each other.
The book includes thirty-eight pages of references, with numerous citations from articles, films, and books, making it a bit overwhelming at times.

Isabelle wrote: " I also like the balance between personal anecdotes (like the one of her relationship with a philosopher who wanted to use her as a personal secretary) with more objective facts."

Isabelle, I am about halfway and completely agree.

I did think there would be more of a focus on the history of witches and their persecution. There is that of course, and I appreciate the connections to modern-day issues. It's not really what I was expecting, but I'm enjoying (& getting a lot out of) it!

Just finished section 2, which did not exactly work for me. I felt the author was looking for an excuse of her choice for not having children and I did not learn anything really enlightening, apart from the fact that postpartum depression could be due to a regret of motherhood. This is usually presented as a « normal » and expected state after giving birth, so this idea of regret was quite interesting to be exposed. On another level, GenZs do openly state their wish to be childless, both for men and women, so I would say that nowadays society is making a 360° turn on that question.

Sophie wrote: "Re-reading the physical book offered a different experience, revealing a wealth of references from various sources. This book provides an intriguing take on the lot of women throughout history, par..."

Totally agree with horrifying as the descriptor for the medical section. It was essentially a giant list of reasons why we need women in the medical field.

Ok, just finished and I have a lot of thoughts.
I wonder what the author would think of our world now, just 7 years after writing this book.

Mostly, I was disappointed in this one.
While I can appreciate each topic addressed, it wasn't what I was expecting. I wanted a deeper dive into the witches of our past, how they changed things, how they fought, etc. And an introduction to more of the witches of our present - which this book does touch on, but sporadically.

The first third of the book was satisfying, but the rest didn't seem connected. Almost like it should have been 2 separate books.

I think I'm an outlier here, so if you're still reading don't let my comments dissuade. Perhaps I just went into it expecting something different.

Isabelle wrote: "Just finished section 2, which did not exactly work for me. I felt the author was looking for an excuse of her choice for not having children and I did not learn anything really enlightening"

I agree. That section was a bit of a slog for me.

Lindsey wrote: "Ok, just finished and I have a lot of thoughts.
I wonder what the author would think of our world now, just 7 years after writing this book.

Mostly, I was disappointed in this one.
While I can ..."

No problem at all, Lindsay. I’m glad you and Isabelle are sharing your thoughts, whether or not laudatory; I think it’s interesting that this 60-year old found the section in post-menopausal women less engaging, and the earlier section addressing the limits having kids may place on your career and development of yourself fascinated me in part because I don’t think it’s been okay to say that in the US - publicly- in decades.

Since this one didn’t feed my witch interest, I plan to read Borders Witch Hunt by Mary W. Craig soon-ish.

I am really glad I read this, though, to hear the difference in the way feminist themes are discussed outside the US and UK.

Carol wrote: "I think it’s interesting that this 60-year old found the section in post-menopausal women less engaging, and the earlier section addressing the limits having kids may place on your career and development of yourself fascinated me in part because I don’t think it’s been okay to say that in the US - publicly- in decades."

Interesting Carol!
I was thoroughly bored halfway through the section about women's choices to not have children. I'm wondering if that's because of our differing perspectives. I'm a "Xennial" (just 40). I have kids, but would have been happy with or without, as odd as that sounds. But I have several intentionally childless friends and none of my 5 siblings (all younger) have children.

It seems to be much more widely accepted among my generation and younger, which is a wonderful direction IMO. I wonder if this is mainly occurring within the younger generations in the US, or if this is now common in France and elsewhere.

Lindsey wrote: "Carol wrote: "I think it’s interesting that this 60-year old found the section in post-menopausal women less engaging, and the earlier section addressing the limits having kids may place on your ca..."

I think it’s much more accepted here, generally. But I suspect there are big gaps between urban and rural folks. I live in an area where it’s non-controversial.

So I finally finished it and really partly enjoyed it. For me, the final section on the medical aspects was the most interesting part where I could learn a few new things but apart from that, not much to make from that book that was more about explaining women’s treatments throughout history than really tackling witches. Yes, it was well documented but maybe too much and definitely, like Lindsey said, it could have been made into 2, or even 3, books to avoid going in so many directions.