Reading 1001 discussion

Review thread: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

1. What is the significance of the title, "Elective Affinities," and how does it relate to the novel's themes?

2. How do the characters of Ottilie, Eduard, and the others evolve throughout the story?

3. How does the setting (the estate and the surrounding environment) influence the characters and events?

4. What is the significance of the child, and how does the child's presence impact the relationships within the group?

5. What is the novel's perspective on the conflict between passion and duty, or responsibility?

6. How does the novel explore the role of societal expectations and conventions in shaping individual lives and relationships?

7. How does the novel deal with the themes of freedom, choice, and constraint?

8. How does the novel's ending reflect the themes explored throughout the story?

9. What are the potential messages or criticisms that Goethe is making about society and human nature?

10. How does the novel's exploration of relationships and emotions resonate with modern readers?

1. What is the significance of the title, "Elective Affinities," and how does it relate to the novel's themes?
In chapter 4, Eduard and the Captain define these terms for Charlotte: every element in nature (and by extension society) has a relationship with other things that is determined by their individual “affinities.” The Captain explains, “Those natures, which when they meet, quickly lay hold on and mutually affect one another we call affined.” An elective affinity (as far as I can tell because chemistry was never my forte) is when two elements combine by choice or preference and a third is let go. In other words, “one relationship was preferred to another and chosen instead of it.” In the best cases, a fourth entity is introduced so the misplaced element will pair off as well. They make an analogy to their threesome, noting that Captain has taken up Eduard’s time and interest he normally would spend on Charlotte. In theory, Ottilie will provide Charlotte with the company she is lacking. But it’s more complicated than that.

2. How do the characters of Ottilie, Eduard, and the others evolve throughout the story?
Eduard changes the most drastically. He goes from being a devoted friend to the Captain and loving husband to Charlotte, to caring only for Ottilie. He returns from the campaign vowing to be with Ottilie no matter what anyone – friend or foe – should say. Even his son doesn’t matter; he reasons that a child will get along better without a father around, since he will learn quicker about how to be independent. In part II, ch. 15 Ottilie states, “…it is in human nature to demand more and more from oneself and from others the more one has received.” This seems to describe Eduard perfectly; he was a spoiled child and remains a spoiled adult. Ditto Charlotte’s daughter.

Ottilie starts out a passive and submissive girl, but after she loses Eduard, the only thing that has brought her joy, Goethe writes, “a woman accustomed to waiting passively wants to step out of her confines and become more active and do something to secure her happiness.” Because of this, I expected her to do more to unite with Eduard. If this were a soap opera (see below), she would have become conniving and evil, Ultimately, she remains self-sacrificing. First, she wants to reunite the couple so Eduard can stop his dangerous wanderings and return home to enjoy the fruit of his labor on the estate. Later, she feels so dreadful about the child’s death that she wants to devote her life to atoning for it and other sins (i.e., Eduard).

Charlotte and the Captain/Major didn’t change too much. They seem honorable at the outset and remain so, despite their feelings for each other.

3. How does the setting (the estate and the surrounding environment) influence the characters and events?
The lake plays a huge role. It is the site of Charlotte and the Captain’s amorous encounter. Later, Ottilie will escape on the boat to be alone. And it becomes the site of tragedy when she accidentally kills the child.

4. What is the significance of the child, and how does the child's presence impact the relationships within the group?
The child creates a bond between Charlotte and Eduard that didn’t exist before, complicating what might have been a simple matter of divorce. However, in appearance it resembles a combination of the Captain and Ottilie. Eduard claims that it is begotten out of twofold adultery because both he and Charlotte were thinking of other people. When Ottilie accidentally drowns it, she renounces Eduard.

5. What is the novel's perspective on the conflict between passion and duty, or responsibility?
Eduard does not seem to feel any conflict between passion and duty – he just wants Ottilie and is ready to abandon his wife and child. Charlotte and the Captain feel attraction/love for each other but make responsible decisions. I see Ottilie as being torn between the two. She is young and has a sense of morality but cannot resist her passion for Eduard.

6. How does the novel explore the role of societal expectations and conventions in shaping individual lives and relationships?
See above.

7. How does the novel deal with the themes of freedom, choice, and constraint?
After her son dies, Charlotte states that she is ultimately responsible for her son’s death because she tried to impede fate by refusing a divorce. She reasons that when fate is determined upon something, “reason and virtue, duty and all that is sacred oppose it in vain.” Ottilie will later say something very similar: “No atonement or self-denial will help us to elude fate if it has resolved to pursue us.” According to this line of reasoning, humans have no freedom; they can make choices (right or wrong), but fate will determine the outcome.

The concept of elective affinities is basically another version of fate: if two elements have a chemical affinity for each other, they will unite no matter what happens. See Eduard and Ottilie -- their “affinity” was such that neither could live without the other, that they could not resist even if they tried. Ottilie tries to escape, but Eduard finds her and, I think in that encounter, she realizes she can’t go through with her plan to sacrifice their love for a chaste future. And if she can’t do that, well, she can’t live with herself.

8. How does the novel's ending reflect the themes explored throughout the story?
I found the ending bizarre and not in keeping with the rest of the novel, especially the miraculous resurrection of Nanni. I also I found Eduard so unlikeable that I didn’t think he deserved to be reunited with Ottilie in the afterlife.

9. What are the potential messages or criticisms that Goethe is making about society and human nature?
See above.

10. How does the novel's exploration of relationships and emotions resonate with modern readers?
It reminded me a lot of a soap opera, and in that regard, it was fairly modern.

1. The title and the very obvious set up with the chemistry lecture is an illustration of why this for me felt more like a treatise than a novel. There is one big metaphor at play (well explained above by Jane).

2. I did not find any of the changes to be convincing human type evolutions. There are rapid transitions from one state to another, like the changes of compounds in reactions, for example when Eduard decides to do nothing but love Ottilie or when Ottilie decides to starve herself to death.

3. Nature creates a romantic backdrop for the supposedly natural emotions and reactions of people to each other in pure encounters. There is no way to set this story in a town.

4. The child is strange - although Charlotte has been thinking it will strengthen their bond, once it is born it is clear that it is the symbol of the crossed affinities of the two couples and so severe the bond between Charlotte and Eduard, which it does eventually do by dying, but that does not serve to remake things in the end.

5-8. I see this pretty much as all just romantic mooning about and in the end Goethe has to save himself from the consequences of a union that can not be brought about with any reality (because if Eduard got Ottilie he would be bored by her in a few years too) by the only romantic solution - killing people off.

9-10. I found this much less modern in the end than the beginning. Ottilie a saint performing miracles? Really?

1. What is the significance of the title, "Elective Affinities," and how does it relate to the novel's themes?

This was explained in the introduction to my Penguin Classics edition. It's a scientific definition but as it applies to the novel, it's a question of whether love is a question of chemical attraction, and whether that rules us or whether we can go beyond it to loyalty within a marriage/relationship. Goethe seems to say there is no possiblity of rejecting the overwhelming sexual feelings of love and attraction, at least for men towards young women.

2. How do the characters of Ottilie, Eduard, and the others evolve throughout the story?

I'm not sure that they really do? Ottilie remains the impressionable but perfect submissive. Eduard runs away from his problems. Charlotte probably evolves the most and comes out best of it from my reading.

3. How does the setting (the estate and the surrounding environment) influence the characters and events?

I wanted to scream at Charlotte to stop wrecking the environment for her personal designs. It is horrible what they do to the ancient trees and other natural surroundings for their pleasure, which in the end doesn't even bring them any. I was totally behind Mittler in this respect.

4. What is the significance of the child, and how does the child's presence impact the relationships within the group?

The baby is legally Charlotte and Eduard's son, but there are (malicious?) suggestions that he resembles the Captain. To me this seemed like a manufactured justification of the relationship between Ottilie and Eduard. Unless there's something obvious like red hair, I don't believe it's possible to match a baby with a parent by their looks.

I was not convinced that Ottilie's drowning of the child was accidental. Maybe it was subconcious, but she wanted the child dead, and he died in her care. Oh but wait, she's a saintly person, whatever she did must have been perfect... okay it was all the parents' fault for having affairs! Nothing to do with Ottilie who actually drowned the child...

5. What is the novel's perspective on the conflict between passion and duty, or responsibility?

Passion wins, but with dire consequencees.

10. How does the novel's exploration of relationships and emotions resonate with modern readers?

I found Eduard's emotional seduction (or "grooming") of Ottilie creepy. Probabaly 40 or 50 years ago it would have been accepted. But not now, and not at the time Goethe was writing, either. Plus ça change...

1. What is the significance of the title, "Elective Affinities," and how does it relate to the novel's themes? It is a reference to how some chemicals are attracted to each others and some people are naturally attracted to each other. Yes, it fits the theme of the novel.

2. How do the characters of Ottilie, Eduard, and the others evolve throughout the story? In many ways Eduard became a lesser character has he became obsessed. Ottilie became also less, obsessed with not eating, anorexia, seeking death.


3. How does the setting (the estate and the surrounding environment) influence the characters and events? The gardens and landscaping.
Perhaps the destruction represents the destruction of "characters".

4. What is the significance of the child, and how does the child's presence impact the relationships within the group? the child's purpose seems to be to draw attention to the messed up adults and when not needed anymore, it is killed off.

5. What is the novel's perspective on the conflict between passion and duty, or responsibility? passions and duty are in conflict in this book.

6. How does the novel explore the role of societal expectations and conventions in shaping individual lives and relationships? it is a social commentary of societal relationships and marriage.

7. How does the novel deal with the themes of freedom, choice, and constraint?

8. How does the novel's ending reflect the themes explored throughout the story?

9. What are the potential messages or criticisms that Goethe is making about society and human nature?

10. How does the novel's exploration of relationships and emotions resonate with modern readers?
I wonder if it does anymore. Haven't we moved away from duty and responsibility to fulfilling all our passions.

1. What is the significance of the title, "Elective Affinities," and how does it relate to the novel's themes?
Jane answered this thoroughly in regards the chemical and societal themes. The theme regarding whether human emotions such as passion can be overridden by logic, adherence to social norms, or simply a sense of loyalty or respect is at the core of the book. The fact that more than two elements cause a more complex chemical interaction is illustrated through the interactions of the four main characters.

2. How do the characters of Ottilie, Eduard, and the others evolve throughout the story? In their core, they do not evolve. Ottilie matures a bit, realizes what she has allowed to happen, and attempts to atone although in a rather pathetic way. She never really rises up into a state of true understanding of the dynamics of the situation. Eduard is spoiled by all around him growing up and then allows himself to spoil himself by not acknowledging any other option to his behavior other than to get exactly what he wants or to run away. Charlotte and the Major remain honorable. If Eduard had been a more dignified and honorable a character and had ultimately determined that it would be best for Charlotte and Ottilie to allow the "chemistry" to fulfill itself, we may have had a nice case study in affinities but because I didn't care for him I wasn't willing to allow love to find its way, which I would normally do.


3. How does the setting (the estate and the surrounding environment) influence the characters and events?
Nature and it's chemical properties is at the core of the book. The fact that these very capable people spend their time laying out gardens and pavilions while not being tuned to the natural beauty of an environment left alone makes for an interesting construct as they also lay out and build their own destinies. The major at least has a "job" (position) and Ottilie takes on a huge job of running the household and supporting the old gardener, but one is really left with an overriding feeling that they all needed to fall in love because they just weren't getting enough stimulation.

4. What is the significance of the child, and how does the child's presence impact the relationships within the group?
This really didn't work for me at all. The face of the Major and the eyes of Ottilie didn't work with the rigorous realistic depictions of the other characters. The saintly Ottilie causes the death of the child even if you make an assumption about fate playing a part or that the implied adultery played a part. The mother of the child sees Ottilie as a victim rather than seeing herself or at least the child as a victim. Eduard, typically, sees only what the child can do for him. Everyone feels guilty but really nobody feels guilty. Clearly, the child was a molecule that didn't work with these other molecular pairings.

5. What is the novel's perspective on the conflict between passion and duty, or responsibility?
Passion is the primary driver of two of the characters and the secondary driver of the other two characters. In the end duty and responsibility can not triumph against passion in the primary drivers and so they have to pay the price.

6. How does the novel explore the role of societal expectations and conventions in shaping individual lives and relationships?

Goethe doesn't make his characters seem overly concerned about societal expectations, except of course, that everyone must remain rich in order to truly enjoy life. Charlotte and the Major make decisions based on their belief systems and their moral stance not just because society would look down on divorce. Note that society as a whole didn't have much to say about Eduard physically being separated from his wife as legally and financially they were still together. We do get some insight into the boring life of the upper classes and the fact that Ottilie had many fewer choices than Charlotte's daughter.

7. How does the novel deal with the themes of freedom, choice, and constraint?

Goethe's philosophical predilections gave a treatise on how our free will and even our belief systems are dominated by our animal nature (although he would not use that phrase). He sets up a comparison between duty which he sees as being a societal construct and passion which is a chemical construct. Ultimately duty triumphs in a strange way, in that the passionate ones are killed off and the dutiful ones go back to there lives full of sorrow.

8. How does the novel's ending reflect the themes explored throughout the story?
I think I just answered that in #7.

10. How does the novel's exploration of relationships and emotions resonate with modern readers?

Human beings have always tested the limits of their passionate natures against the established norms. There is a reason we have passions and there is a reason we have societal norms and those dynamics continue in the modern world. However, the depiction of the characters, I believe, would ultimately lose most modern readers. It wasn't exactly a soap opera (or everyone would have died) but it was close without the reward of some emotional strings being pulled. Instead I thought that all the mechanics of passion and duty were illustrated but I did not feel them.