Hooked on Books discussion

Sammy wrote: "For anyone wondering how the chapters line up vs The Odyssey (and who don't have a copy of the wonderful centenary edition...) I thought I'd list them here:

1 - Telemachus
2 - Nestor
3 - Proteus
4..."

Dangit, you're really making me want to do a tandem read - I took a field trip to Barnes and Nobel and fangirled over pretty copies of The Odyssey, but somehow contained myself and didn't buy one.

Sorry, not sorry 😆

I would be doing it in tandem, but I already have so little time for reading print at the moment. so I will leave that for next time 😁

I figured out a great way to kinda sorta understand what is happening. I listened to the audio of the chapters that I read, and it helped. I imagine it won't help so much when I reach the serious stream of consciousness stuff though.

Didn't get to read a chapter last night, because husband.

So did ch 10 this morning. first of all, the "Wandering rocks" essay is definitely the most boring of them all so far. Had to fight to keep my eyes open at times 😆

So ch10 put me in mind of one of those movie scenes where you're following a certain character until they meet another character and then you follow their POV until they come across another random person and so on until you've made your way to the character you need to be at.

And now I'm wondering why I've never looked for a movie version of Ulysses. And I kinda wanna make one.


Another thing I find interesting to note, is that Joyce started writing this book when he was 24!!! And he didn't finish it until he was 40 (he received the first copy of the book on his 40th birthday, apparently).

Most 24-year-olds I know couldn't write a grocery list, never mind something like this! 😆

Sammy - I asked chatgpt for a schedule to Tandem Read, what do you think?

WEEK 1: Getting Oriented (July 8–14)
Ease in, get your sea legs, and set a strong foundation. These are more straightforward.

🗓 July 8

Ulysses 1 – Telemachus
Odyssey Book 1 – Telemachus Begins His Journey

Stephen's search for a father figure mirrors Telemachus’s.
✦ Think: alienation, identity, loss.

🗓 July 9

Ulysses 2 – Nestor
Odyssey Book 3 – Visit to Nestor

Teaching, elders, and history lessons.
✦ Note the generational distance.

🗓 July 10

Ulysses 3 – Proteus
Odyssey Book 4 (end) – Proteus

🧠 HARD MODE: stream of consciousness, symbols, shapeshifting
✦ Consider re-reading or listening to this one.

🗓 July 11

Ulysses 4 – Calypso
Odyssey Book 5 – Calypso’s Island

Enter Bloom. He’s stuck in domestic routine, like Odysseus with Calypso.

🗓 July 12

Ulysses 5 – Lotus Eaters
Odyssey Book 9 (early) – Lotus Eaters

Temptation, passivity, forgetting. Bloom loses time meandering.

🗓 July 13

Ulysses 6 – Hades
Odyssey Book 11 – Underworld

Death, memory, lineage. Funeral vs. ghosts.

🗓 July 14

Ulysses 7 – Aeolus
Odyssey Book 10 (first half) – Aeolus and the Winds

🧠 DENSE STYLE: speech, noise, journalism. Compare how Ulysses is windy in a different way.


WEEK 2: In the Belly of the Beast (July 15–21)
Now we’re in the messy middle. We’ll slow the pace a little to accommodate difficult chapters.

🗓 July 15

Ulysses 8 – Lestrygonians
Odyssey Book 10 (second half) – Cannibal Giants

Hunger, crowds, consumption.
✦ Bloom’s lunchtime walk mirrors Odysseus losing men to monstrous appetites.

🗓 July 16

Ulysses 9 – Scylla & Charybdis
Odyssey Book 12 (first half) – Scylla & Charybdis

🧠 HARD MODE: literary theory overload. Stephen shows off.
✦ Danger in the intellectual realm.

🗓 July 17

Ulysses 10 – Wandering Rocks
Odyssey Book 12 (continued) – Wandering Rocks decision

Fragmented perspectives. Dublin itself as labyrinthine.

🗓 July 18

Ulysses 11 – Sirens
Odyssey Book 12 (second half) – Sirens

✦ Focus on sound: wordplay, music, and desire.

🗓 July 19

Ulysses 12 – Cyclops
Odyssey Book 9 (Cyclops section)

🧠 SATIRE ALERT: Bigotry, nationalism, toxic masculinity.

🗓 July 20

Ulysses 13 – Nausicaa
Odyssey Book 6 – Nausicaa helps Odysseus

Bloom watching Gerty. Sex, fantasy, shame.
✦ Note gender dynamics and voyeurism.

🗓 July 21

Ulysses 14 – Oxen of the Sun
Odyssey Book 12 (Cattle of the Sun)

🧠 MAX CHAOS MODE: shifting prose styles through English lit history. May need 2 sessions.


WEEK 3: Homecoming & Reckoning (July 22–28)
Final push. These chapters tie it all together, emotionally and stylistically.

🗓 July 22

Ulysses 15 (Part 1) – Circe
Odyssey Book 10 (Circe)

Nightmarish hallucinations. A play in script form.
✦ You may want to spread this over 2 days.

🗓 July 23

Ulysses 15 (Part 2) – Circe continued

Wrap up Circe. Let it wash over you; don’t overanalyze.

🗓 July 24

Ulysses 16 – Eumaeus
Odyssey Book 14 – Eumaeus the swineherd

Aftermath. Wandering, storytelling, hospitality.

🗓 July 25

Ulysses 17 – Ithaca
Odyssey Book 22–23 – The Return and Reunion

Catechism Q&A format. Returns, recognition, reconciliation.

🗓 July 26

Odyssey Book 24 – Resolution

Wrap up the Homeric arc. Penelope’s test, the suitors’ fallout, closure.

🗓 July 27

Ulysses 18 – Penelope (Molly’s soliloquy)

Stream of consciousness, no punctuation, 8 massive sentences.
✦ A complete stylistic and emotional flip from the previous chapter.

🗓 July 28
🎉 Buffer / Reflection Day

Reread any parts, write notes, reflect with your buddy read group.
Maybe revisit Ulysses 1 and Odyssey 1 to see the full-circle arc.

It even gave me this SS - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...

If anyone is curious to try it, lol

Looks good! And I like you got a SS to go with it 😁

I may save for future use.

Sammy wrote: "Looks good! And I like you got a SS to go with it 😁

I may save for future use."

Have at it!

Alright, so... having finally started, I have officially finished Episode 1, and here are my notes (which I added to that super helpful SS... lol)

Characters to Remember:

✨ Stephen Dedalus (moody, intellectual protagonist) - young writer / philosopher / teacher burdened by guilt, grief (loss of his mother), and artistic ambition.
✨ Buck Mulligan (loud, witty?, flamboyant) - med student, Stephen's roomie (ahem freeloader)
✨ Haines (staying with these 2) - annoying imperialist friend who wants to "understand your culture"; had a gun-related hallucination the night before and freaked out S.D. (is this important??)
✨ The ... Milk Woman? - I guess she's supposed to be representative of... tradition and the working poor, but I don't have a good grasp on that interaction. Maybe I'm not smart enough for that one.

What's Going On:

Honestly, I have no idea - we've got a mock mass... a brooding, resentful protagonist... and a walk to the sea, ending with Broody McBroodington refusing to go home...

Broody McBroodington! Bravo!

Welcome to the wonderful world of Joyce! don't worry we're all driven mad by the Irish genius here! 😁

I finished ch 11 & 12.

11 - the music chapter. So much emphasis on sound in this one. I would recommend that if you have access to an audio version, you listen to the start of the chapter, rather than just read it.
If you don't, I would suggest to try reading it aloud. It's all about the sounds of the words, and I don't think it comes across as strongly in print as it does when read aloud.

Chapter 12 is a hard one, in terms of content. First of all we have an unknown narrator this chapter, and we have no idea whose POV we are in during this discussion. that puts an interesting spin on things!
And then there is the topic! Highly political and some strong foreshadowing of the Troubles that would hit Ireland a few decades later.
I wonder what Joyce would have thought of it all. Saddened, probably, but going by what he was writing here, he would most likely not have been surprised.

I got totally sucked in to listening to The Odyssey yesterday. So now I need to get back into doing the tandem read. I spent last night finishing something else, and shopping on line, because, well, I felt like it.

Jenny wrote: "I got totally sucked in to listening to The Odyssey yesterday...."

I read Book 1 last night, and I liked it! Then I saw someone say that perhaps you should read the Iliad first, and I have only a vague recollection of either of these, I don't think we did more than discuss them in school, they weren't required reading, so I thought I might look up a brief synopsis of that before venturing further, so that I might understand better.

My short recap of what happened in Book 1 was "the depressed telephone guy is looking for his dad, and there's a party, and they say yeah dude - go forth and look"... I eventually parsed out who "they" was and some of the how and why, but I did struggle to understand who was talking at any given time... the prose is magical though.

Adding that, I did indeed look up a (very) brief recap, and as I was reading I realized... I know a lot of this.. I did read The Song of Achilles somewhat recently and so I think I'm fine.

You are likely fine. The Trojan war started over a prince from Troy basically stealing away (luring away) the wife of a Greek "king" and therefore starting a war that lasts 10 years. Menelaus and his brother Agamemnon get all of the warriors from the different Greek city-states to go to war with Troy to get Helen back. Hers is "the face that launched a thousand ships."
The war, and the telling of it in the Iliad is basically a siege, as Troy is well defended. The Iliad mainly takes place in the last bits of the war, with a lot of infighting amongst the leaders of the Greek army, Achilles being a whiney baby because his prize (read sex slave) was taken away from him, and Odysseus being brilliant and coming up with the Trojan Horse idea, which ends the war and destroys Troy.

If that makes it sound boring, I don't mean it to be. The Iliad is a great story, and a great read, with the exception of one chapter which is basically the calling out of all the names of the warriors, and can get a bit tedious.

Ok yeah, I'm good.

That's about the same as the recap I read, and it does track closely with The Song of Achilles, though that is obviously more centered on Achilles and Patroclus as a couple...

It's an interesting dichotomy, actually, because Briseis (the "sex slave" - ew) is reimagined more as someone Achilles is 'protecting' from a worse fate... I guess (I think I'm remembering that right anyway)... It’s still iffy, but it feels like an intentional effort to humanize her and complicate the dynamic.

I guess that brings in a whole other topic on how modern retellings reckon with the really gross parts of ancient texts: war spoils, misogyny, etc.

You are not wrong. There was a line in Stephen Fry's Odyssey that was basically one of the kings saying that it isn't always necessary to rape and pillage in order to have a good time. Shocking sentiment!

Most of the retellings of Greek myths I have read recently give voice to the women of the time, and apart from Cassandra, who speaks truths that no one believes, and a few others in minor roles, women are just not as important a part of the story.

One thing that never quite sat right with me was that the gods were, apart from Zeus, pretty equal. The female gods were worshipped and feared equally with the male gods, but that equality didn't translate into human interactions. Or at least the telling of human interactions.

At least in a couple of centuries or millennia, if humans survive our own idiocy, then the sexes will be equal. So, we have that to look forward to. teehee

Jenny wrote: "At least in a couple of centuries or millennia, if humans survive our own idiocy, then the sexes will be equal. So, we have that to look forward to. teehee"

One can only hope... 😁

Jenny wrote: "I now have to decide whether to read the Emily Wilson translation, or the Robert Fagles translation. Maybe both."

I've been reading (with 95% certainty) the Pope version (from Kindle Unlimited) - it's... not easy, so I looked at the pros and cons of Wilson vs Fagles and decided to buy (bc zero self control) the Wilson version. There is enough in the sample to get me the first 2 books, plus part of the third, and it should arrive in person on Friday! Very excited. It's much easier to read, especially for a first timer. Maybe after the first read I'll feel more confident in a more lyrical version...

👓 Episode 2 Thoughts

“History is a nightmare from which I am trying to awake”

chef's kiss. easily one of the more powerful lines so far. Broody McBroodington's vibe in this chapter seems more cerebral than broody, but still haunted.

🧠 Mr. Pompous Deasy = The Worst
What a condescending blowhard. His smugness is insufferable even before he starts ranting about the Jews, and then it’s just flat-out disgusting. There’s always someone, isn’t there? Joyce doesn’t seem to be endorsing it (thankfully), but he is holding up a mirror to this kind of everyday bigotry. It’s gross.

🔁 Echoes of Book 2 of The Odyssey bc why not?
I think Stephen mirrors Telemachus here - both trying (and mostly failing) to be taken seriously. Tele can't catch a break from the elders (or the icky suitors) and Broody teaches disinterested kids and is patronized by Greasy Deasy. Same energy, different nightmares.

Ashley wrote: "Jenny wrote: "I now have to decide whether to read the Emily Wilson translation, or the Robert Fagles translation. Maybe both."

I've been reading (with 95% certainty) the Pope version (from Kindle..."

I agree with you. Pope and Chapman are both beautiful versions of these tales, but it does help if you are either a scholar of texts in translation, or already familiar with the story.
The Wilson translation is beautiful, and also easy to understand. She threaded that needle very well I think.

I just laughed out loud at the difference:

Pope: "Let one, despatchful, bid some swain to lead, A well-fed bullock from the grassy mead;"

Wilson: "Now one of you must run down to the fields and choose a cow;"

Since Jenny is sort of also reading it, I figured I'd post my Odyssey notes here too, mostly when it relates to Ulysses...

🏛️ Odyssey Book 3 – Visit to Nestor

Welcome to Pylos! Would you care to witness a sacred cow-murder?

Not too many notes here. Everyone keeps insisting that Nestor and Menlaus are so honest. Are they, though? Feels a little too convenient, but perhaps I'm plot-jaded at this point.

Nestor is giving "back in my day" vibes ----- Greasy Deasy, is that you? Poor Tele is just watching a ritual slaughter and getting a surprise bath... Weird journey, dude.

Ashley wrote: "I just laughed out loud at the difference:

Pope: "Let one, despatchful, bid some swain to lead, A well-fed bullock from the grassy mead;"

Wilson: "Now one of you must run down to the fields and c..."

😆

Yeah, I read the Wilson translation, and it's probably perfect for people who haven't read much in the way of classics or are intimidated by anything they think might be too unfamiliar in terms of language. I personally prefer ones like the Fagles which are still accesible, but keep a bit more of the poetry alive.

finished Chapters 13 & 14

Chapter 13. Probably, along with the final chapter, the most iconic of them all. It's also the one that got the book banned sooooo quickly! 😆

(view spoiler)[Basically, Bloom masturbates (in public!) after a young woman flashes her underwear at him during a fireworks show. She is totally in the know and enjoying the effect she has on him, btw. She turns out to be "lame", which of course added an extra layer of outrage to the incensed puritan masses.

I personally have no issue with it, however his cleaning himself with and adjusting of his "clammy wet shirt" afterwards was a bit of an "ew" moment. One that continues for me for the rest of the book, knowing that he's going about the rest of his day without getting changed... 🤢 (hide spoiler)]

After re-reading the essay, I have a note to self: Try to find the Samuel Butler book referred to in the essay for additional reading.

Chapter 14 is much less "obscene", but still a much anticipated one, as here Bloom and Dedalus finally come face-to-face.

I really enjoyed the "English litererary styles through the ages" approach Joyce used here. It feels a little like a montage where someone starts off one way and goes through a series of processes to come out the other end another way, only here it is language, not a person undergoing that transformation.

And for some reason, after this chapter, I am craving steak! 😆

Also

(view spoiler)[ Knowing he's still wandering around, visiting hospitals and whatnot, in his "wet, clammy shirt"... 🤢🤢 (hide spoiler)]

Ch15 & 16 done...

Ch 15:

So if the Cambridge edition in the Little Baby Book, ch15 (also known as "Circe") is the Little Baby Chapter. It's apparently the same length as the first 7 chapters combined.
Its chunkiness is fitting, I guess, considering the fact that Odysseus spent so long on Circe's island.

I honestly am not sure this chapter actually "makes sense" in the traditional way. It's a fever dream/hallucination kind of experience, so I recommend just going with it and try not to overthink it too much!

So if you're gonna have a daydream/hallucination, you may as well make it a good one, right? Bloom goes for political power. Not my personal idea of fun times, but each to their own.

My personal daydream would involve having a house with a gigantic library containing every book I've ever wanted to read (and a load more that I probably don't 😆), staffed by (silent!) scantily clad gentlemen that look something like this:



Their main duties shall be feeding me tastly things, fanning me when it is ridiculously warm, and getting rid of any unwanted disturbances that will stop me from reading...


Oh, right, Ulysses...

So Bloom finally changes out of the "clammy wet shirt"! Or does he? Is it just part of the hallucination? I choose to believe it's real, if only for the lessing of the "ew" factor. Otherwise we'll soon be going from clammy to crusty... 🤢🤢🤢

Another question. What is it with genitalia being referred to as animals?
In Greek it's a sow, apparently, while in English we prefer to refer to felines. For men we prefer farmyard fowls. I am most curious to know why this is a thing?


As for ch16, I personally find this one one of the hardest chapters, as Joyce makes many grammaticaly dubious choices in this chapter ON PURPOSE!!!

Absolutely guaranteed to make me itchy-scratchy 😆

Ummm. I think Sammy wrote something about some chapters she read in that book we are all buddy reading. What's it called?
I can't seem to concentrate on anything
.
I can't figure out why.

I wrote something? Um... yeah, there may have been something at some point... Can't remember. 😆

Aaaaand done!

Ch17: Itheca. Bloom/Odysseus finally returns home.
So many things are listed in this chapter. It is especially effective being read to you in a sing-song Irish accent (but then, let's face it, what isn't?).

And finally Ch18: Penelope. The other "obscene" chapter (and my personal favourite).

Now if you can't handle unpunctuated sentences that are several pages long (don't feel bad, few people can!), then audio is a must here! I find Marcella Riordan is particularly excellent. Molly Bloom's soliloquy is available as a separate audiobook, but honestly, if you were to grab that, you may as well grab the full thing really 😉


So this is the end of my 5th read of this book. First time I read it, I gave it 4 stars. But with each subsequent read I've gotten something more out of it, and have enjoyed it more than the time before. I will absolutely read this again. And again.

And when finances allow, I'm visiting Dublin. And taking the Ulysses walking tour. and reading the book again.

I will join you on your walking tour.
And after spending some time in Dublin, I am sure there is a "Journey of Odysseus" private boat tour that would be worth going on.

This looks like fun: https://greekmythologytours.com/blog/...

.... snicker

Chapter 3 Musings...
because if Broody McBroodington can space out, so can I...

🧠 “He laid the dry snot picked from his nostril on a ledge of rock, carefully. For the rest let look who will.”

😯

Stephen, who just spent pages slogging through ancient philosophy, metaphysical pondering, poetic musing, and memories of loss, carefully placing a booger on a rock is sending me.

I mean, sure. I was just dragged through a metaphysical brain-melt, why not end with something revolting.... "For the rest let look who will." Am I right?

I'll be honest, I really don't know what happened. But, whatever, I guess?

As part of my ongoing tandem read....🏺 Highlights from The Odyssey, Book 4: The Soap Opera Continues

(aka “Dinner’s not over until someone drugs the wine”)

Um, we’re just casually doing drugs after dinner now? Way to not feel your feelings, Helen.
Wait… did they even drink it?

Stephen vs. Telemachus: A Broody-Off: (two boys, one inheritance, endless internal monologues) So far my money is on Telemachus. He at least has growth potential. Stephen is just mentally pacing inside metaphors.

Also...
The bros (suitors....) are VICIOUS. Plotting murder for a chance at Tele’s mom?? Nasty.
Like sirs, calm down. She’s still married. The body isn’t even cold because the body isn’t even dead.

And Penelope? Girl, you folded fast. One oracle dream and you’re already spiraling? Maybe wait 48 hours before giving up on your only child? It's giving... "Am I the drama?"

I love the sections of the Odyssey with Telemachus and Penelope. I'm with you on the whole drama queen thing she has going.

And the suitors, wow. I want to take them out one by one with a hot poker.

If you haven't watched it yet, this is a great movie that concentrates on Odysseus' homecoming and the suitors. Worth a couple of hours of your time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrZqQ...

It takes a couple of small liberties with the story, but it is pretty close to the end of the book. Maybe wait until you finish The Odyssey.

I have to say that I lost my way on the tandem read, I fell into rereading The Odyssey, and just about finished it up. I am saving the last couple of chapters until I catch up with Ulysses. Maybe. I have been reading the Fagles and listening to the Wilson.

I also agree that Tele seems to be a bit more put together than Stephen. A bit. At least he listens to the good advice of the random god that whispers to him.

Jenny wrote: "At least he listens to the good advice of the random god that whispers to him."

This made me laugh out loud.

Jenny wrote: "I have to say that I lost my way on the tandem read..."

I just went through my plan again and rearranged it a bit, as it was splitting up some of The Odyssey books (especially 12!) to the point where I was getting confused and tbh it felt unnecessarily complex. I like my new order!

🥩 Ulysses Episode 4 – (aka: Meat Juice, Bathroom Breaks, and the World’s Saddest Breakfast)

(New) Characters to Remember:
✨ Leopold Bloom – gentle? odd? sad? horny? Our second protagonist. Ad salesman, husband, thinker of strange thoughts. Makes breakfast, buys kidneys, poops thoughtfully. Possibly more emotionally repressed than Stephen, and that's saying something.
✨ Molly Bloom – wife, singer, bed-dweller. She’s not moving much, but her presence looms. Possibly planning an affair later today. Seems unconcerned.
✨ The Cat – honestly? A vibe. Judges Bloom silently.
✨ The Kidney – yes, this gets its own entry. It is cooked. It is eaten. It is described in detail.
✨ Random women in the street – filtered through Bloom’s internal monologue, which is... a lot. A mix of curiosity, attraction, melancholy, and marketing copy.

What’s Going On:
We’ve clearly shifted gears. Broody's brooding has been replaced by Bloom’s body: the food, the flesh, the heat, the smells. I’ve never read so many sensory details that made me actively regret having a body.

Bloom goes about his morning routine and I think I’m supposed to admire how normal he is. But mostly I feel uncomfortable and unsure if I like him.

Final Thought:
If Stephen is all lofty metaphysics and guilt-riddled symbolism, Lonely Leo is earthy, physical, and painfully human.
This one made me feel like I accidentally opened someone’s diary and their trash can. And that, apparently, is literature."

🏝️ Tandem Read Update – Odyssey, Book 5
(aka “I Miss My Wife So Bad... While Sleeping With a Goddess”)

Odysseus is stuck on an island having hot immortal sex daily and still manages to be miserable. He cries on the beach. Every. Single. Day. For seven years.

Why? Because he misses Penelope.
...Despite actively sleeping with Calypso.
🤔 Sir. Be serious.

🧠 The Link to Ulysses, Episode 4 (am I wildly off point? who knows....)
Both Odysseus and Bloom are:
💥 Trapped in repetitive domestic limbo
💥 Full of grief, passivity, and spiraling internal monologues
💥 Lowkey dissociating while claiming to be devoted husbands

Odysseus builds a raft to escape.
Bloom eats a kidney, thinks about ads, and goes to the bathroom.
✨ Modernism, baby ✨

✋ Also:
Let’s talk about how Calypso literally calls out the mythological double standard that immortal women get slut-shamed while men just… do whatever?
Iconic behavior from her, tbh.
Odysseus is a hypocrite, and the text doesn't even pretend otherwise.

Men will literally cry on a beach for 7 years instead of going to therapy.
Also, Bloom might be more emotionally intelligent than Odysseus, but the bar is on the ocean floor.

It's funny. When I first read The Odyssey, I think I was around 12 years old. I had grown up on the Greek Myths, and at some point I grabbed The Iliad and fell in love with it. But, looking back, I didn't even notice the misogyny at the time. Theseus was a hero full stop, not a jackass that left Ariadne on an island because he no longer needed her. Odysseus was brilliant, and of course he couldn't help it if other women seduced him. Clytemnestra was reviled and killed for taking her revenge on her shitty husband, and all women are not trusted to be faithful. Even faithful wives like Penelope.

In this time, when society is finally maturing to a place where women are considered people, and not chattel, equal, and not lesser than, it is harder to read these stories without yelling at the page sometimes. (Of course we are not there yet.)

Honestly, I'm enjoying The Odyssey, a lot, sexism be damned, and I thought it would be the harder of the two. Ulysses has my brain melting.

Ashley wrote: "Ulysses has my brain melting."

Teehee! In that case, you're definitely doing it right 😂

There really is no comparison IMO. The Odyssey is a fun adventure, and not terribly hard to follow at all, I think. Ulysses was specifically designed to be brain-melty!

I feel I have a pretty good grip on the "don't judge something written historically by our modern standards" thing, so I have no real issue with the sexism in either book.

Of course, if my husband were to try and behave like these good folk, he'd be in a world of shit 😆

Having said all that though, Odysseus was my first proper book crush. Je ne regrette rien.

I'm with you, but for me it was totally Theseus. Something about him defeating the Minotaur just worked for my little brain.

I wonder what books are no longer taught in literature class due to the problematic-by-today's-standards characters. Maybe there is a dedicated unit for understanding cultural norms at the time of writing or something. That would be good.

I think they should continue to teach everything!

Trying to pretend problematic things never happend is never a good idea. Better by far to instead teach stuff like this and then have a discussion about why abandoning people once you no longer need their help is not cool.

Sammy wrote: "I feel I have a pretty good grip on the "don't judge something written historically by our modern standards" thing, so I have no real issue with the sexism in either book."

I definitely have no issue with it, and honestly, if it's relevant, I think we should keep it because it gives us another reason to unpack it!

Sammy wrote: "Trying to pretend problematic things never happend is never a good idea. Better by far to instead teach stuff like this and then have a discussion about why abandoning people once you no longer need their help is not cool."

Exactly. If you want to stick a warning at the beginning to say, ALERT - Sexism/Racism/Etc ahead, be aware, but use context! then that's cool, but removing it is just silencing history, and more often than not, silencing the victims.

I wholeheartedly agree. I just wonder how teachers deal with it these days. I mean between people needing trigger warnings on everything and helicopter parents not wanting their babies exposed to anything icky, what do history/social studies/literature/science teachers do? I mean besides go home and drink a lot.

I also wonder how much current authors edit themselves today. What if there was a character who was a racist pig, and that made the story better in some way, but the sensitivity readers at the publishing house nixed the idea? That sentence was bad, but you know what I mean.

Anyway, Greek myths rule!

they prob do just drink a lot

copious amounts of alcohol, guaranteed.

And yes, I'm certain authors are censoring themselves all the time now. Or adding in extra characters that have zero purpose simply to tick a diversity box because without it they won't get published, etc.
(I'm all for diversity btw, I just don't think having to add that in as a box ticking exercise is not going to help anyone!)

I fear the days of just being able to write a good story and get it published are fast receding. especially for new authors.

Sammy wrote: "I fear the days of just being able to write a good story and get it published are fast receding. especially for new authors."

Agree.

There is some rather interesting (and tense) discourse surrounding this topic at the moment and it all seems mixed up with anxiety about what people are allowed to say vs what actually pushes the tough conversations forward.

Critical thinking skills are what the drunk teachers should be focusing on.