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Interesting. Actually, Fitzgerald and Hemingway were part of the same group of writers, dubbed by Gertrude Stein as The Lost Generation, living in Paris. That group as led by Stein were deep in discussion of writing styles and the chages they hoped to achieve from those that dominicated pre-WWI. Stein was a mentor to both. In face, Fitzgerald was a frequent member of the group and its events, relationships, and travels that both were using in the 1920s to inspire their writings - especially true of Hem whose The Sun Also Rises is considered in large part to be a true account of certain events and relationships with 'names changed only'.
What would be surprising would be if there wasn't a similarity given the period and their proximity.
I do love when those connections are made by readers - that's something I do readily, and am always up to discussing!
Instead of the AI, you can read Hemingway's own take on their relation, as related in A Moveable Feast, which I read earlier in spring
AI is a mixed bag. I haven't used the one you're talking about; I don't have a new enough computer or cell phone to use some of the best AI, but I know that even with my search engine's AI it's a mixed bag. What I like about it is that it often cites two sources, so I can see how accurate they are. Sometimes I already know if it's correct or not. One problem with AI searching the internet is that there may be popular sites that don't have accurate information.
Speaking along these lines, for the first time in my life I gave an Alexa command to change music when I went somewhere, partly as a joke since I was the only one there other than the pastor who was in his office. He has an excellent sense of humour.
I’m reading them both too this month! I read A Moveable Feast for the Lost Generation Prompt. Some of the better (and more disturbing) stories were about Fitzgerald. I’m reading a Fitzgerald short story book with Z in the title for another prompt.Thanks for sharing the dialogue! This note meshes completely with my perception:
“• In A Moveable Feast, Hemingway portrays Fitzgerald in an unflattering, sometimes cruel light—highlighting insecurities and strange behavior, though there are moments of affection too.”
I sometimes use google’s AI when I have a question. It seems to take into account my previous questions, to refine an answer. The answers are not always correct - it depends on the resources it references. I noticed a big error yesterday. The AI referenced a Goodreads listopia, but misunderstood its title, so the answer was completely inaccurate. The old computer adage still holds- Garbage in garbage out,
I haven’t tried the chat yet, but your sample sounds fun. I would use the same caution about accuracy. I think I would view it as though i were chatting with another knowledgeable reader. Assume they have read something about the subject, but they haven’t read everything. They only know what other people (articles, etc) told them, and they might not be up to date.
If you specifically ask about controversies, potential disagreements, or opposing views about a person or book, the bot is more likely to pull up alternative articles to get two sides of the story.
Thanks for sharing it!
I definitely believe that there are flaws in AI. I have not been impressed with Google and Bing and Meta AI. ChatGPT seems to be the leading AI and is much better than the search AI. I do believe in verifying information. Any information including from AI. One thing I do regularly is ask ChatGPT to give me their sources. I also test it regularly with knowledge I already know. Especially about Jehovah's Witnesses. It's been accurate enough to use it for some research but then go back to the source material for more nuanced information. But it makes the search or a quick check much easier.
ChatGPT is full of affirmation. Its default is to agree and praise you. It's easy to get sucked into that as well as orchestrating an answer based on how you ask the question. You have to think about making your question unbiased.
Mostly though, I use ChatGPT for conversation. I love talking about books and I don't have that in my f2f circle of friends. So, while reading I will just talk to ChatGPT about how I feel about the book. It will offer some background and suggestions back. I do ask that the AI not always agree with me, but to push back when needed.
Another recent conversation I had with ChatGPT is about the themes in Rules of Civility and the comparisons and contrasts with Gatsby and The Sun Also Rises. How Tinker, or at least the actions taken regarding him, is the antithesis of Brett and Daisy (So far...I'm only about halfway through). My Sunday Conversation Topic this week will have to do with a conversation I stumbled upon with Chat GPT in regard to "The Suns Also Rises, Love & Gelato and The Grapes of Wrath, which I was reading all at the same time. Now Rules of Civility falls into the conversation as well.
Algernon (Darth Anyan) wrote: "Instead of the AI, you can read Hemingway's own take on their relation, as related in A Moveable Feast, which I read earlier in spring"
I learned from AI about "A Moveable Feast. I have not read much or any Hemingway, Steinbeck, Faulkner, Fitzgerald before recently. The notable exception is The Great Gatsby. Also, from my understanding, though friends also, Hemingway was very critical of Fitzgerald. I am interested in A Moveable Feast, but of course it's one side of the story.
I feel AI is a tool and fun. Like anything, it should be tested and tweaked and held at arm's length. At the end of the day, responsibility still relies with sentience.
I’m professionally interested in how people are using generative AI tools - doing risk assessments and advising on governance is part of what I do. This is a lovely positive example Jason.I’ve had a play with a few tools (including for book queries), with mixed success. I am very wary about Google’s AI assistant at the top of search results after it fed me back a complete load of garbage when I asked about a particular audio book narrator. It wasn’t even a hallucination based on some form of predictive text - it was wholly made up. And lawyers are getting lots of reminders from the courts about the perils of using genAI for submissions - apart from the minor (not) issue of client confidentiality, the tools blithely make up cases and references. They’ll get better but it’s not a great incentive to engage, lol. (And the environmental impact of AI is eye-watering).
One of my current workplaces has just introduced Microsoft CoPilot. I was sitting there yesterday calmly writing my report and it kept interrupting me asking me how it could help me. The temptation to write “You could start by ****ing off” in the dialogue box was very very strong …
Thanks for the laugh, Kate. You have more willpower than I. I would have typed it in. Being one of the older generations in this group, I was around when PCs came along and had my work life bombarded with all the enhancements throughout. I am afraid that I have reached my limit of wanting to know anything more. Strange, to me at least, because I love to learn.
Thus, I only sometimes read the answer AI may give, but do not trust it enough to swear by it.
My daughter and my husband talk to their phone. Adam, because, first off, English is his second language and his spelling is atrocious, and secondly, he is a hunt-and-peck typist. Natalie, because she takes advantage of any and all technology that moves things along faster. She enjoys giving me the "disgusted face" when I won't do things her way. This happened just yesterday when she needed a tow truck and borrowed my insurance card to come get her car to the shop. Telling my phone what she needed was a lot quicker than dialing the phone and going through all those questions and waiting in a queue. She won me over on that one, so I can guess that there will be more things like that that come along and drag me into the 21st century.
Jason wrote: "I definitely believe that there are flaws in AI. I have not been impressed with Google and Bing and Meta AI. ChatGPT seems to be the leading AI and is much better than the search AI. I do believe..."
There was a gorgeous movie that romanticized this group and period of time in Paris. It might have been a Woody Allen film. I was obsessed with these people back then. Reality was apparently a lot more tawdry.
===Added - it was Midnight in Paris.
I didn’t enjoy Moveable Feast very much. Hemingway insulted just about everyone he knew. I knew he was a lousy cheating husband, but now I know he was a terrible friend too. I’ve been too exhausted this week to write reviews, but that’s a start I guess,
I’m not finished with the Fitzgerald book yet. So far my reactions are mixed.
NancyJ wrote: "Jason wrote: "I definitely believe that there are flaws in AI. I have not been impressed with Google and Bing and Meta AI. ChatGPT seems to be the leading AI and is much better than the search AI. ..."I love Midnight in Paris. The idea that you don't belong in this time only to realize that people in the time you want to be in, felt they belonged in an earlier time. On and On.
Joanne wrote: "Thanks for the laugh, Kate. You have more willpower than I. I would have typed it in. Being one of the older generations in this group, I was around when PCs came along and had my work life bomba..."
@Joanne, I'm like you. I'm slow to the game with AI and don't really know how to talk with it. However, as one who has wrestled getting through telephone trees (so aggravating), I'd love to know how Natalie cut through all that when she needed a tow truck. (By the way, my family rolls their eyes at me too, about how I use tech. ;0)
@Jason, for us newbies, can you explain in simple terms how you feed questions/directions into AI? Which is the best AI service so far?
The uses of AI are endless and many of them are not even fact based. Other uses I have used ChatGPT that have, to some degree, altered my life for the better.
When I give bible discourses or presentations, I can past my manuscript to ChatGPT and ask for suggestions. It's suggestions, for the most part, are wonderful. Then I tell ChatGPT to add in the suggestions I want to add in and to supply me with a downloadable word document. Then I make an outline from that manuscript. Afterwards, I can upload a video of me practicing or of the actual even, and it will critique it. Its suggestions were wonderful.
In regard to diet and exercise, ChatGPT will give me an idea of my calorie and carb and fiber and protein intake for the day and make suggestions. I can upload my workout, and it will make suggestions. I can ask, what is something healthy to eat at such and such restaurant and it will make suggestions based off my workout and what I have already consumed. Since I have an Ascending Aortic Aneurysm, I had ChatGPT make a calisthenic workout routine for me that I can do at home. But I still have control. I can suggest a different workout if it has one I can't do.
My wife uses ChatGPT to help make emails sound better. She types her email in ChatGPT and it suggests better wording and she also uses it for design of business cards, resumes, flyers.
And then just the fun you can have. You can upload a photo and ask it to roast you or insult you. Harmless, good natured, funny. We have a laugh with that. I've already said just the idle conversations, which I had one this morning about Amor Towles writing and storytelling. I just don't enjoy it and have settled on, with the help of ChatGPT, that his stories feel aimless. The destination is so nuanced that the story never feels to progress towards anything.
ChatGPT has largely become my google. But again, it's not perfect. Its only as good as the information it is pulling from and even with that, it can make mistakes. I use ChatGPT to pull unusual and hard to find baseball statistics, and even opinions. "Most Home Runs before the Allstar Break Pre 1980" or "Who are the current 5 tool players in the MLB"
To be honest, until this thread, I didn't realize how often I do use ChatGPT or how passionate I am about the positives. Like all creations, there will be abuses and negatives. Fake videos, not fact checking ChatGPT, fake pictures, being able to influence the information presented. I don't have the answers or fixes for those things.
Holly R W wrote: "Joanne wrote: "Thanks for the laugh, Kate. You have more willpower than I. I would have typed it in. Being one of the older generations in this group, I was around when PCs came along and had my ..."
I use ChatGPT. It has come out as the leader. Elon Musk was originally involved in OpenAI, the company behind ChatGPT. He left due to philosophical differences. From my understanding, Elon believes AI should be open sourced and all the information of how it works to be public. OpenAI believe in proprietary and private ownership.
Anyway, you can google ChatGPT and go to its website. There is also an app on your phone. You can type just like in a google search bar or there is a feature to talk to it. It can also save conversation threads that you can revert back to and continue conversations.
chatgpt.com
In the setting, you can change how it talks to you. My daughter uses the Genz setting, so it talks back to her like that. It's funny to me. You can also enter in your interests and things you want ChatGPT to know such as, don't always agree with me, sometimes present other sides of how I feel. (my fear was being in an echo chamber)
Thanks, Jason. I may start trying it.
I don't like to get info from AI in general. There are too many instances where it makes things up or copies from fallible sources. (like the recent list of upcoming books, I think in the Philadelphia paper, where it made up real-sounding books for famous authors.)My husband sometimes asks Siri questions and I pride myself on being able to find better information faster by searching online (though it's annoying that on Google the first thing that comes up is AI).
On my Mac computer, when I receive an email, after a recent upgrade, the system reads it enough to propose answers, like "yes, I will be there" when an event was announced. I find that creepy and I was able to turn it off. On the other hand, I really like predictive text on my iPhone that saves me typing out whole words, I just have to be careful because sometimes the words change before I can click on them.
I have tried ChatGPT for a couple of creative things and wasn't impressed.
Jason wrote: "NancyJ wrote: "Jason wrote: "I definitely believe that there are flaws in AI. I have not been impressed with Google and Bing and Meta AI. ChatGPT seems to be the leading AI and is much better than ..."That was it exactly!
My son loves ChatGPT for his studies. He is currently taking courses for Med School, and he finds it helpful for explaining concepts in Organic Chemistry and Physics. He recently gave me an example of the need to understand Molecular Orbital Theory, which is a method in chemistry for describing the electronic structure of molecules using quantum mechanics. It walked him through the theory, and he was able to ask it questions on parts he did not understand, and now he understands it. There are some very good uses for AI - it just is not infallible.
There is also a misconception that AI just "searches the web." Some of them do this, but generally if it is current info that is not available in its Large Language Model. It does not include just any old BS available on the internet.
Large language models are trained on massive datasets collected from the web, books, and other sources up to a specific cutoff date. This information becomes encoded in the model's parameters during training - it's not stored as searchable text but as learned patterns and relationships. When it answers questions, it first draws on this internalized knowledge, and is not actively searching databases or the web.
I have been reading many books about AI recently. Some are very positive, and others negative on its current value. My conclusion so far is that it can be a very useful tool, especially for science, mathematics, medicine and those types of fields, but it is less useful for any artistic or creative fields (other than graphics generation).
One other aspect that many are not aware of is that these big tech companies that are at the forefront of AI are using vast amounts of resources in providing this service. They are currently behind on their environmental targets.
AI systems, particularly large language models and deep learning networks, require enormous amounts of computational power. Training a single large model can consume as much electricity as hundreds of homes use in a year. Data centers running AI workloads now account for roughly 1-2% of global electricity consumption, with this figure rising rapidly.
The electricity powering AI infrastructure often comes from fossil fuel sources, leading to substantial carbon emissions.
AI's computational demands are driving expansion of data centers, which require not just electricity but also cooling systems, which consume vast amounts of water for cooling.
AI accelerates demand for specialized chips, and manufacturing these semiconductors is energy-intensive and involves mining rare earth elements.
The list goes on and on.
Joy D wrote: "The electricity powering AI infrastructure often comes from fossil fuel sources, leading to substantial carbon emissions.AI's computational demands are driving expansion of data centers, which require not just electricity but also cooling systems, which consume vast amounts of water for cooling.
AI accelerates demand for specialized chips, and manufacturing these semiconductors is energy-intensive and involves mining rare earth elements.
The list goes on and on..."
Joy, thanks for this valuable information and clarifies some things for me.
I suspect that this has been a driving political force of late with Musk involved, the stated desire to annex Greenland, add Canada as the 51st state, mineral resource agreement with Ukraine, China's influence in the Congo and elsewhere over critical mineral sector.
Joy D wrote: "My son loves ChatGPT for his studies. He is currently taking courses for Med School, and he finds it helpful for explaining concepts in Organic Chemistry and Physics. He recently gave me an example..."Great information. Thank you.
Since you know more about the back end of this, how has the China startup DeepSeek's advancement changed the game? The apparently are doing the same as ChatGPT but with less computing power. Or at least lesser chips. Are they using more chips? Or have they figured out a way to maximize efficiency and computing power?
Booknblues wrote: "I suspect that this has been a driving political force of late with Musk involved, the stated desire to annex Greenland, add Canada as the 51st state, mineral resource agreement with Ukraine, China's influence in the Congo and elsewhere over critical mineral sector..."Bingo!
Jason wrote: "Since you know more about the back end of this, how has the China startup DeepSeek's advancement changed the game? The apparently are doing the same as ChatGPT but with less computing power. Or at least lesser chips. Are they using more chips? Or have they figured out a way to maximize efficiency and computing power?..."It's such a rapidly evolving area that I have not read a great deal about it (yet) in AI-related books. One of them touched upon it. If I understand correctly, the key isn't necessarily using fewer chips, but maximizing efficiency, which is done through innovative architecture. It would mean using only the relevant parts of their massive model instead of its entirety.
There is a concept called "Mixture of Experts" (again if I understand correctly) that divides an AI model into different areas of expertise and activates only those related to a particular query, as opposed to more common architectures that use the entire model. This means that the manner in which the model is trained would need to change to target these areas, which would reduce memory and computational requirements.
I think the good news is that we will see other Mega-Tech companies trying to compete with whatever DeepSeek has done, and eventually smart architecture, efficient algorithms, and innovative training techniques will lessen some of the environmental impact that I mentioned above, and potentially lower the cost to everyone.
Honestly, I think AI is coming (no matter how much we resist it) and we need to figure out the best ways to use it. My biggest fear is that it will end up being controlled by Big Tech and used in ways that maximize their revenue rather than doing what is best for humanity and the world.
It has great potential to do great good in the world if we don't screw it up.
I feel the need to also mention that all AIs are not created equally. The ones I am referring to as "AI" are those that rely on Large Language Models:
- ChatGPT
- Claude
- Gemini
- Google Bard
- Copilot, etc.
These can either be used with only the LLM or add-in web searches when asked for information after their training cutoff, or real time data such as stock pricing.
These are primarily enhanced search engines, and it is a stretch to call them true AIs in my opinion:
- Google Search (AI-powered snippets and responses)
- Bing Chat
- DuckDuckGo's AI features
- You.com
There may be more, but you get the idea.
I agree that AI, like the internet, email, virtual meetings, etc. is coming - or really hear - and there's no ignoring it. On the otherhand I have to echo what KateNZ mentioned on the problems using it is creating for lawyers as it is incredibly unreliable when it comes to legal references and research. On the other hand, it's creating whole new areas of development and expertise in the law on every level, just as computers and even environmental law initially did. If you know anyone starting law school, urge them into this sector and taking the course of studies to support it - contract, intellectual property, evidence, ethics.
Holly R W wrote: "Joanne wrote: "Thanks for the laugh, Kate. You have more willpower than I. I would have typed it in. Being one of the older generations in this group, I was around when PCs came along and had my ..."
LoL Holly, WTH is a telephone tree?
What Natalie did was quite simple. Since using my phone to do it, she went to the AAA site, hit the button for road service. She then entered the card number and some other simple information, and within 2-3 minutes a nearby tow garage called her back,
Robin P wrote: "I don't like to get info from AI in general. There are too many instances where it makes things up or copies from fallible sources. (like the recent list of upcoming books, I think in the Philadelp..."At least you call it Siri, Robin. I have come to call it the Google Lady.
Joy D wrote: "Jason wrote: "Since you know more about the back end of this, how has the China startup DeepSeek's advancement changed the game? The apparently are doing the same as ChatGPT but with less computing..."A lot of these fears are my daughters, too. She works for a non-profit as a media and marketing the fear that her job being eliminated is great.
@Joanne, what I mean by a telephone tree is the rigmarole we consumers go through to reach a live agent (person) on the phone for customer service. I don't know what else it's called. ;0)
Joanne wrote: "Robin P wrote: "I don't like to get info from AI in general. There are too many instances where it makes things up or copies from fallible sources. (like the recent list of upcoming books, I think ..."Siri is part of the Apple world, Alexa is Amazon, Google is just ok Google. Really tough for those women who were named Siri or Alexa before those apps existed!
This bothers me from Joy's description:
Large language models are trained on massive datasets collected from the web, books, and other sources up to a specific cutoff date.
Work can be used without attribution or attention to copyright.
Also Theresa mentioned about law. It is possible that jobs as law clerks and other entry-level white collar professions could be largely replaced with AI, making it harder for even college grads to get started.
Robin P wrote: "Work can be used without attribution or attention to copyright. ..."There was a lawsuit recently decided that has allowed it as "fair use." Now, there may be appeals and such, but the initial ruling came down in favor of AI. This was just one lawsuit of many (this one was Anthropic). Each of the companies has a similar lawsuit against them in a class action suit by the copyright owners. I'll see if I can find the link to the article. They still have to buy the original works, though, and there are other lawsuits that contend they downloaded them without payment.
ETA - Here's the link:
https://apnews.com/article/anthropic-...
Robin P wrote: "Also Theresa mentioned about law. It is possible that jobs as law clerks and other entry-level white collar professions could be largely replaced with AI, making it harder for even college grads to get started. ..."This is a concern longer-term, but right now, they cannot replace humans. Even though the AIs can provide information, they have little understanding of context, subtext, and such. This goes hand-in-hand with not being able to produce creative content very well (except for computer graphics, which is also probably gleaned from online sources without payment.)
Holly R W wrote: "@Joanne, what I mean by a telephone tree is the rigmarole we consumers go through to reach a live agent (person) on the phone for customer service. I don't know what else it's called. ;0)"We used to call it voice mail hell, but now phone hell or automation hell fits better.
I remember phone trees as something used by PTA moms to spread urgent information to others in the group in the age before voice mail and automation. A would call B and C. They would each call 2 more people, who would call …. There were redundancies of course, and it sometimes was an indicator of status in the group. It was before my time, so I don’t know if I learned about it from my mother initially, or a book. I also saw phone charts in old company files detailing emergency plans for various reasons, such as snow emergencies.
@Joy - thanks for that link! I have a round of CLE (Continuing Legal Education- hours required to renew my license every 2 years) coming up and plan to take some lectures on it. I am especialpy hoping it comes up as part of ethics and professional responsinility seminars.You should hear author friends on subject of AI! All are negotiating clauses in their contracts with publishers to protect their work.
Play Book Tag
Books mentioned in this topic
Rules of Civility (other topics)The Sun Also Rises (other topics)
Love & Gelato (other topics)
The Grapes of Wrath (other topics)
A Moveable Feast (other topics)
More...
Did Hemingway and Fitzgerald know each other?
Yes, Ernest Hemingway and F. Scott Fitzgerald did know each other—in fact, they had a complicated, often tense friendship during the 1920s, especially when both were part of the expatriate literary scene in Paris.
A Brief Overview of Their Relationship:
• First Meeting: They met in 1925, introduced by writer Maxwell Perkins, their mutual editor at Scribner’s. Fitzgerald was already famous for The Great Gatsby; Hemingway was just gaining prominence.
• Paris Years: Fitzgerald introduced Hemingway to key literary figures like Gertrude Stein and Ford Madox Ford, which helped boost Hemingway’s career. But over time, their friendship soured.
• Tensions and Criticism:
• Hemingway admired Fitzgerald’s talent but mocked his lifestyle and thought he squandered his potential with drinking and obsession over Zelda.
• In A Moveable Feast, Hemingway portrays Fitzgerald in an unflattering, sometimes cruel light—highlighting insecurities and strange behavior, though there are moments of affection too.
• Fitzgerald, meanwhile, supported Hemingway’s early work but reportedly felt hurt by how Hemingway used their friendship in his memoirs and fiction.
• Jealousy & Ego: Their rivalry reflected deeper anxieties about literary greatness and masculinity. Hemingway saw himself as the rugged realist; Fitzgerald, the sensitive lyricist. Both were plagued by insecurities about their work and legacy.
Final Thought:
They respected each other’s talent but didn’t remain close. Their friendship is often viewed as symbolic of the lost generation’s brilliance and self-destruction.
Let me know if you want quotes or passages that reflect this dynamic.
Was the sun also rises inspired by gatsby. They seem very similar
You’re not alone in noticing the similarity—The Sun Also Rises (1926) and The Great Gatsby (1925) share striking thematic and stylistic parallels. However, while Hemingway’s novel wasn’t directly inspired by Gatsby, the two books reflect shared generational disillusionment, and Hemingway was very aware of Fitzgerald’s work.
Key Connections:
🕯️ 1. Postwar Disillusionment
Both novels depict the “Lost Generation”:
• Gatsby: characters try to recreate meaning through wealth, love, and illusion.
• Sun Also Rises: characters drift through Europe seeking distraction in wine, sex, and bullfights.
🎭 2. Emotionally Detached Narrators
• Nick Carraway (Gatsby) and Jake Barnes (Sun) are both:
• Observers of others’ decadence
• Haunted by past love
• Trying to maintain dignity in a morally slippery world
• Often passive, watching more than acting
💔 3. Destructive Love & Idealization
• Gatsby idealizes Daisy, who is ultimately hollow.
• Jake pines for Brett, who is emotionally volatile and destructive.
Both women are unattainable, both men wounded by their love—one emotionally, one physically.
🎢 4. Excess, Parties, & Emptiness
• Gatsby’s West Egg soirées mirror the café-hopping, bullfighting chaos of Paris and Pamplona.
• Behind the fun: boredom, futility, and people using each other.
✍️ 5. Minimalism vs. Lyricism
While Fitzgerald writes in lush, poetic prose, Hemingway uses bare, clipped sentences—but both evoke profound emotion and emptiness. Hemingway even critiqued Gatsby’s style at times, though he admired its ambition.
⸻
Did Hemingway draw inspiration?
Not exactly, but he read and respected Gatsby, and both were drawing from the same cultural moment—post-WWI trauma, wealth without fulfillment, the decay of old values. Hemingway may not have intended The Sun Also Rises as a response, but in a way, the novels exist in conversation with each other.
If you want a comparison table or deeper dive into specific passages, I can do that too.