The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

Even tho' the narrator claims that Clio gave him the power to enter his characters' minds, and he says he goes in there (see later chapters), in fact I don't think he does. I have yet to read what either the duke or Z are actually thinking... I hear they are sad, or mad, or whatever, but that's the best it gets (so far).

As Ouida was a satirist herself and a very good one she probably appreciated the satire more than you do Everyman. Think of the many quite cruel political cartoons made of our political leaders and yet I have known several of them adorn their office and/or living room walls with them. No matter how unflattering cartoons are, their subjects are always flattered to have been drawn by a famous cartoonist. Being satirized or drawn by Beerbohm was a accolade - he drew and wrote many unflattering portraits of Wilde and yet they remained great friends.

My links are on mainstream searchable sources, you said you couldn't access them which is something to do with your search engine not their availability. There is comparatively very little about Beerbohm on the internet because he is a lesser known author. I have spent quite a lot of time looking for stuff for RR because I enjoy it whereas you may not.

I find it annoying that I cannot copy and paste text from google books by highlighting, copying and pasting in the usual way, no matter what search engine I use and if someone can tell me a way around this I would be grateful.

Lynnm wrote: "I'm not sure where Beerbohm is going to take this. So far, as a satirical tale, it can be amusing (although disliking Zuleika and the Duke so much, it is difficult to find it too amusing). But, if they all kill themselves, where is the humor?"

I'm with you on this. As satire it's witty but I find the underlying inhumanity quite disturbing. And if you're not supposed to regard these as real people, then the satire doesn't really work.

Emma wrote: "Lynnm wrote: "I'm not sure where Beerbohm is going to take this. So far, as a satirical tale, it can be amusing (although disliking Zuleika and the Duke so much, it is difficult to find it too amus..."

I agree that it's not funny to me either. It makes me wonder if it was more funny in its time because the references would be more understood. Also I've been thinking about why I find Zuleika neither good nor bad. I think it's because as a character she doesn't really get me emotionally involved. Neither does the duke. It's as if I'm reading far above any possible connection - 35,000 feet as it were.

MadgeUK wrote: "Guess you have access to a different Internet than I do.

I am (was) a professional researcher and like Heineken, know how to reach the parts that others don't:)"

The Invisible Web, full of professional journals and arcane research.

I'm not working full time any more. I've occasionally stayed up till 5 or 6 AM, depending on what's going on on the web. My UK friends on other forums are back on by then.

I don't think you should take any of Beerbohm's comments at face value. It IS satire. If it's not Ouida, it could be a composite.

Emma wrote: "Lynnm wrote: "I'm not sure where Beerbohm is going to take this. So far, as a satirical tale, it can be amusing (although disliking Zuleika and the Duke so much, it is difficult to find it too amus..."

For me, because I know it was intended as satire I don't take any of it literally. I know it is all intentionally overdramatized and exaggerated so I am not really disturbed by it, though in part that might also be due to the fact that I tend twords having a bit of Gallows humur.

In regards to Zuleika being based on someone Beerbolm admired along the lines of what Madge said about political cartoons it makes me think of the strret artists that used to be popular that would draw caraitures of people. I had one done of myself when I was a kid. They are intentionally unflattering and exgereated but it is all done in good fun and everyone involved is in on the joke.

Silver #56: That's how I see it too so I take it all with a pinch of salt and in my mind's eye see them all like the cartoon characters Beerbohm drew.

MadgeUK wrote: "Silver #56: That's how I see it too so I take it all with a pinch of salt and in my mind's eye see them all like the cartoon characters Beerbohm drew."

I'm not taking it literally either, but still notice that I'm feeling distanced from the main characters.

MadgeUK wrote: "Silver #56: That's how I see it too so I take it all with a pinch of salt and in my mind's eye see them all like the cartoon characters Beerbohm drew."

Yes, that's how I see it. It is interesting to note that Beerbohm occupies the Smoke and Mirrors chapter, along with Ouida, Wilde, Lewis Carroll, and Bram Stoker in Schmidt's The Novel: A Biography... which affirms for me that this story has nothing to do with reality or real people. It is a tale, an allegory perhaps. And Beerbohm sticks some real stuff in to make it more relatable. I maintain this is a fable about the abuse and misuse of love.

...this story has nothing to do with reality or real people...

Except that the environs of Oxford he describes and the Emperors exist, as do events such as the Eights and clubs like the Junta and Beerbohm was well known for satirizing friend and foe in drawings and articles. I think it is an Oxford Love Story as the sub-title indicates but also a satirical fantasy woven around a real place, real events and real people.

Lynn wrote #53: And if you're not supposed to regard these as real people, then the satire doesn't really work.

What do you mean here Lynn? Surely great deal of satire is directed at real people?

I think one of the problems we face with ZD is that the people B is satirising are not known to us whereas they were known to his contemporaries. Were this a novel set in Hollywòd or London's West End satirizing celebrities we read about every day, we would all be laughing our heads off.

Madge- that was actually Emma who wrote that - she was responding to something that I wrote.

Sorry!