Sci-fi and Heroic Fantasy discussion

This is our contemporary novel discussion of...


The Goblin Emperor by Katherine Addison

Currently nominated for the 2014 Nebula Award.

So, here we have a fantasy for set in "Elfland".

Maia is a Prince, the offspring of an arranged marriage who was exiled after his mother died as a halfbreed gobln embarrassment to the King, who has other sons in line for the throne. Except, when daddy dearest and his other kids die in a dirigible crash, Maia suddenly finds himself summoned as an untrained King presiding over a Royal Court full of intrigues.

This is a story of on-the-job training.

Just started reading. I find it a bit strange that Maia addresses himself in his thoughts with a majestatis pluralis and with "thy, thou, thee". Doesn't make him any more majestic, huh?
Setting is mildly interesting. I didn't derive how much goblinista this is, how it differs from elvendom or simply from some European court. There are airships, so it could be some gaslight fantasy, but there weren't any more hints, so far.

Andreas wrote: "I didn't derive how much goblinista this is, how it differs from elvendom or simply from some European court. There are airships, so it could be some gaslight fantasy,..."

Those match my impressions, too.

There really isn't very much to distinguish the elves or their goblin brothers from a fictional European Court. Other than the occasional reference to ears perking up or ears drooping, it's all very human, in a steampunk/gaslight style.

Shari Kay wrote: "I'm not familiar with the term... gaslight fantasy?."

One of those fuzzy categories that describes fantasy taking place in a world whose technology and society is roughly Victorian era — e.g., something like gas lights instead of candles, but not electricity, fantasy meets historical fiction. Sort of the fantasy equivalent of steampunk. Examples: Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell, Parasol Protectorate, The Golem and the Jinni, Cold Magic, His Majesty's Dragon.

Shari Kay wrote: "I'm not familiar with the term... gaslight fantasy?

I've has this on my TBR for awhile now... need to get to it."

Phil Foglio and Kaja Foglio invented it for Girl Genius, because they didn't think steampunk was accurate.

It appears to be a losing battle. Steampunk is generally treated as a genre that can encompass both fantasy and SF.

Personally I like the ears. There are so many stories where elves are only humans with pointy ears, but if more of them used them like she does, I would have fewer objections.

Even after having read 25% of the book, I'm looking for some insight why direction or form of those ears would make any difference to humans. It is a bit early, but currently I find them somewhat... pointless (pun intended!).

Additionally, I'm exhausted by the vast amount of descriptions where nearly every breath is considered and analyzed - what everyone wears, where everyone stands, the decorum of each and every room, every detail of traditions like funeral and coronations.

Andreas wrote: "pointless....."
<groan>

Andreas wrote: "what everyone wears, where everyone stands, the decorum of each and every room, every detail of traditions like funeral and coronations...."

It's interesting how Addison has mixed and matched milieux. Although she's designated her characters as elves and goblins, she hasn't used any of the folklore surrounding them. Her Elven Royal Court seems derived more from Eastern ritual, with the ritual prostrations, formal language, Imperial custom and dress.

Andreas wrote: "Even after having read 25% of the book, I'm looking for some insight why direction or form of those ears would make any difference to humans. It is a bit early, but currently I find them somewhat....."

Yeah. They would be entirely human beings with pointy ears if she didn't actually do something with the ears.

This is a common fault in fantasy.

Though perhaps she just wanted to side-step humanity issues.

When I started reading, I expected some exploration of the world, lots of foreign ambassadors, maybe wars. Having read a third, I come to the impression that the novel is a chamber play, restricted on a couple of rooms within the palace. Within this context, Addison broadly describes the setting.

This is an interesting deviation from usual Fantasy, where world-building is defined by describing cultures, cosmology, history, ecology, and geography. Good samples would be Tolien's Middle-Earth, Terry Pratchett's Discworld, Le Guin's Earthsea. But gaming settings like Dungeons and Dragons, MMORPGs like World of Warcraft.

Although they describe a far wider topic than only one palace, they are restricted - usually to one continent or one planet. They usually don't talk about the whole universe, other planets or longer timelines - Middle-Earth with its cosmology and detailed history of thousands of years being one notable exception. Going outside the scope of one planet seems to be the topic of Space Operas - starting with the solar system, e.g. in KSR's 2312, and ending in a huge range of history and universe like in Herbert's Dune series.

From small planet to the whole universe, world-building is defined by the used context. Addison only reduces context to the scope of a chamber play (only disregarding the number of participants and decorum). The scope could be brought down to an even more extreme form known as the Aristotelian unities, i.e. the unities of time, action, and place; this means that a drama should happen within one specific hour, follow only one defined plot, and happen in one closed room. One sample would be Shakespeare's The Tempest, set on one island, happening in a couple of hours. Without further analysis, I think Neil Gaiman's final issue of The Sandman follows also the Aristotelian unities, but I don't know of any other SF or Fantasy work doing so.

Summing up, I'm not disappointed by scarse world-building, as Addison fills up the given context completely and to its fullest. Contrariwise, I'm somewhat exhausted by the baroque or even rococoan abundance of details.

At least, I'm now in the correct mood digging through the rest of the novel :)

Mary wrote: "They would be entirely human beings with pointy ears if she didn't actually do something with the ears.
This is a common fault in fantasy...."

I think it actually stands out more in this novel, though. First, the occasional references to the ears simply reminds us that these characters aren't otherwise very different from humans. Secondly, there are only elves here. In most fantasy involving elves, there are humans, and the elves come more distinct just by contrast. That contrast may be shallow, not much different than between different nationalities, but at least it makes them "other". Here, with nothing to contrast them with, the elves seem even more human.

Which presents us with the question, why does Addison insist that these are elves. Why not just "The Teen Emperor" ?

Andreas wrote: "Although they describe a far wider topic than only one palace, they are restricted - usually to one continent or one planet...."

I don't know if I'd equate a novel taking place on one continent or planet with a one-set play.

And I think as you continue reading, you'll find enough subplots to distract you from the Aristotlian Unities. In fact, the one event that might be described as a climax & denouement is actually just slightly past halfway through the novel. I could argue that the entire novel is nothing but a collection of subplots, some which are resolved and some of which left dangling for the inevitable sequel.

You're spot on that the setting is almost entirely limited to the Imperial Court (other than the brief opening at Maia's exile home in Edonomee and brief visits to funeral ceremonies.) There will eventually be some visitors from the outside world, though they won't provide a whole lot of external world building. The world is in the detail at the Imperial Court.

Andreas wrote: "One sample would be Shakespeare's "The Tempest", set on one island, happening in a couple of hours. Without further analysis, I think Neil Gaiman's final issue of The Sandman follows also the Aristotelian unities, but I don't know of any other SF or Fantasy work doing so...."

I think the reason you can't think of "works" other than a play and graphic novel is that the Classical Unities evolved to describe plays meant to be performed in an hour or two. A novel isn't supposed to conform to the Aristotelian Unities. It has to include much more to justify its length.

If you consider SF&F short stories/novella, I think you'll find the structure more common. E.g., from our current short story /novelette discussions, When It Ends, He Catches Her seems to fit the Unities perfectly. The classic short story The Cold Equations actually has been adapted into a one-act play. (Also Asimov's robot story "Galley Slave" sticks in my mind as a one-act courtroom drama.)

But we digress... :)

I probably misdirected you, G33z3r: I didn't want to state that Goblin Emperor is an Aristotelian drama. What I wanted to say is that there are different granularities of context, reaching from multiverse through Solar system to world down to Aristotelian Unity. Each context can be filled by good world-building, and Goblin Emperor should be placed nearer to the "one place" end than to the "exploring the whole world" part. Goblin Emperor doesn't need to set up the whole world for a good world building because it has a smaller scope.

I'd agree that I don't see many references to traditional goblin or elf lore -- I get a Byzantine vibe (although some of that may be the cover illustration). I think the descriptions of the religious ceremonies somewhat suggest the Orthodox church, & the importance of trade & port access also comes through. Of course, later in the book we have references to nomad archers in the barbarian borderlands.

For those who pronounce words in their heads, how are you treating Untheileneise? un-THEE-la-neez? or, more Germanic, unt-HIGH-lin-ice-a? There seems to be a deliberate suggestion of the term "unseelie" (I don't know if English seelie/unseelie are actually etymologically related to Irish sidhe, but I tend to make a connection there.)

For character names and titles, the trend seems to be to subvert typical English or romance expectations in terms of gender (Maia as a masculine rather than feminine name, feminine names/titles in the Elflands ending in -o). However, I don't see a deliberate attempt to evoke any particular "real" language.

At first, I thought Maia was using the Royal "we" & when the nodacherei started using it, I figured maybe it was because of their relationship to the Emperor. Then I realized everyone was using "we" as a polite form of address. Again, this to me didn't seem to reflect any particular real-life language family. (German, IIRC, has polite third person pronouns but not first person pronouns.)

Hillary wrote: "For those who pronounce words in their heads, how are you treating Untheileneise? un-THEE-la-neez? or, more Germanic, unt-HIGH-lin-ice-a? There seems to be a deliberate suggestion of the term "unseelie" ..."

Since I read this on my Kindle and Whispersync is available, I listen to the free sample (as I often do with fantasy books with odd pronunciations. "Untheileneise" first appears on page 2, so it's included in the sample :) Narrator Kyle McCarley pronounces it UN-theh-lah-nes-ah (with admirable confidence. Wonder how long he practiced? :) Assuming Addison provided a pronunciation guide,...

I, too, interpreted it as unseelie.

Hillary wrote: "At first, I thought Maia was using the Royal "we" & when the nodacherei started using it, I figured maybe it was because of their relationship to the Emperor. Then I realized everyone was using "we" as a polite form of address. Again, this to me didn't seem to reflect any particular real-life language family...."

I wasn't quite sure what Addison was doing with her English representation of foreign languages.

The use of "we" as the "formal first-person" by everyone begins almost immediately with the arrival of the messenger at Edonomee, "We bear messages from the Untheileneise Court," and continues from there.

I also noticed that for the first couple of pages, there's a lot of "thy", "thou", "dost", "thyself", "canst", which is very King James or Mighty Thor, depending on your religion. But that immediately disappears after the messenger arrives, and occurs thereafter only in a few of Maia's unverbalized thoughts and one of his dreams. I'm thinking Addison decided to use modern English + Royal We to represent formal Elvish, and the archaic English to represent informal Elvish. Counterintuitive, perhaps, but it makes the majority of the book a lot easier to read!

Addison put a lot of effort in linguistic world-building, starting with inflections used for titles, ending with those formalisms. I noted several others than "thy", "thou" etc. - like using "an" instead of "if" or "luncheon" instead of "lunch". All very formal and giving the impression of being used at a gaslight emperor's court, which means very fitting.

How does an author learn those formal archaic phrases? Are they public knowledge or is there a "Complete Idiot's Guide to talk like an Emperor"? I mean, everyone knows that royalties use "we" and people "broke one's fast" (instead of having breakfast) - but the more seldomly used ones like "an" instead of "if"? Or do they just use lists like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:@pp... ?

Just as a note - Addison/Monette has said she has no plan to do a sequel, at all.

Hillary wrote: "I'd agree that I don't see many references to traditional goblin or elf lore -- I get a Byzantine vibe (although some of that may be the cover illustration). I think the descriptions of the religio..."

Hillary, I am having some of the same reactions, though i'm only two chapters into the book. I definitely thought Byzantine for the cover--a very traditional icon exuding royalty and mystery.

With the names and pronunciations, I'm struggling with making sense of the pronunciation and emphasis. Perhaps, I'm too used to seeing Tolkein-esque/Elvish style languages used in sci-fi fantasy works. What I do like is that Addison's place and person names, due to their difference to me, set the story and the author apart. So I am reading it (again only two chapters in) as a fresh "world" not as obviously templated on another.
Then again, I may feel differently the further in I read. Sometimes languages authors in this genre invent seem like gibberish with English affiliations (think Harry Potter series or The Peculiar by Stefan Bachmann).

I tend to read more Steampunk inspired stories, so I'm glad to delve back into what seems to me in line with more classic sci-fi fantasy, albeit in a small, specific context.

Andreas wrote: "How does an author learn those formal archaic phrases? "

That's not difficult. You read old books.

Jenny wrote: "Sometimes languages authors in this genre invent seem like gibberish with English affiliations"

From my linguistic understanding, Addison's language structure make sense. I see where the author put lots of thought in philological background.

Mary wrote: "Andreas wrote: "How does an author learn those formal archaic phrases? "

That's not difficult. You read old books." I suspect most English writers soak up the greater part of their archaic language either through the King James Version of the Bible or Shakespeare.

I'm abashed to have discovered, at the end of the novel, Addison's guide to pronunciations & other language sundries. I had picked up most of the personal naming & formality conventions, but other than the unusual term for "church/public ritual space," I hadn't really paid attention to the naming conventions for locations.

I'm surprised Addison/Monette doesn't have plans for sequel(s) -- relationships w/the Avar or his heirs seems like one of several places where there could be fodder for more story. On the other hand, much of the interest/tension in the book comes from Maia's intensely alienated outsider POV & I don't think a follow-up could use that same tone/POV.

A bit of a spoiler, but I was so happy to finally read Maia saying (view spoiler)[ that the chief mage was wrong & Maia should be friends with his nodecharei (hide spoiler)]. In some ways, this was the denouement to the interior conflict of the novel, since as G33z3r pointed out, the main external conflict comes to a head a bit past the halfway-point.

One notes that the concluding scene underscores his assuming his new role by having him (view spoiler)[cast the vote in a somewhat contrived situation. Mind you, even recognizing that she had had to set that situation up didn't keep it from being an excellent way to validate it. (hide spoiler)]

What about the romance interest, or lack of it? I would have thought that keeping the new emperor an eligible bachelor for some years would be an excellent way to promote friendship with other nations. Instead we're given the reasoned point that an heir will be needed and so a wife must be picked quickly.

I also thought that we could have seen more steampunk facets of life; there's not much besides the airship.

That language is catching, we find.

Clare wrote: "there's not much besides the airship."

The novel is placed on the border to steam age with some innovations like airships already established but many more to be expected. Meaning, steam doesn't percolate every facet of technology and in general isn't accepted completely. The author shows this with the steamed draw bridge as a central topic where the government wonders about the feasibility. Those two elements (airship and bridge) are already two central topics - one initiating the "sudden emperor", the other initiating an important step of the emperor's coming-of-age. That is certainly enough "steamness" for me, only lacking the "punk" :)

Clare wrote: "What about the romance interest, or lack of it? I would have thought that keeping the new emperor an eligible bachelor for some years would be an excellent way to promote friendship with other nations. Instead we're given the reasoned point that an heir will be needed and so a wife must be picked quickly.

The top consideration has to be that they are down to the Emperor and his nephew. Lack of heirs leads to war. Very, very, very important.

Anyway, what other country is there, which it would be useful for? He can't marry one of his aunts, and there are no other significant powers mentioned.

I also thought that we could have seen more steampunk facets of life; there's not much besides the airship.

Hey, sometimes the plot's about the people to whom that's background detail.

That language is catching, we find. "

You leave me wondering what the effect of Lord Dunsany would be on you. 0:)

Dunsany happens to be one of the Anglo-Irish writers whom I haven't read. Maybe because here we get the Irish writers pushed at us, not the British-born ones.

There's always a strategic alliance to be made. That was how the new Portugal secured its independence from Spain - by marrying into the British throne.

Finished it, 3.5 stars from me :)

An antithesis to our contemporary grim-dark Fantasy times, but certainly no action- or mystery-thriller.
Here's my review.

Clare wrote: "There's always a strategic alliance to be made. That was how the new Portugal secured its independence from Spain - by marrying into the British throne.
"

In our world. This is not our world.

One notes that except for Maia's mother, all of his father's marriages were with nobility of his own country, as were all the marriages (performed or proposed) of Maia's siblings.

So, Maia wants to be a thoroughly modern reformer. He wants to give women (at least some women) more say in their lives, and embrace science and technology to better the economic circumstances of the kingdom.

This seems to be a popular theme in 21st century fantasy, imposing present-day political correctness on fantasy heroes. It also showed up in the recently released The Grace of Kings, in which one of the revolutionaries offers opportunities for women and embraces new technologies in his uprising.

The alternative is creating fantasy worlds where gender equality is the current reality (and possibly there never was such a past.) E.g., Lackey's Valdemar, Moon's Paksenarion, Hurley's God's War or McClellan's Power Mage.

Well, you must concede that the era of steam power was the era when women were improving their lot, and they have steam power far more advanced than we ever got it in our world.

All that mechanization allowed things that would have been impossible before. As Virginia Woolf observed,

If only Mrs Seton and her mother and her mother before her had learnt the great art of making money and had left their money, like their fathers and their grandfathers before them, to found fellowships and lectureships and prizes and scholarships appropriated to the use of their own sex, we might have dined very tolerably up here alone off a bird and a bottle of wine; we might have looked forward
without undue confidence to a pleasant and honourable lifetime spent in the shelter of one of the liberally endowed professions. We might have been exploring or writing; mooning about the venerable places of the earth; sitting contemplative on the steps of the Parthenon, or going at ten to an office and coming home comfortably at half-past four to write
a little poetry. Only, if Mrs Seton and her like had gone into business at the age of fifteen, there would have been--that was the snag in the argument--no Mary. What, I asked, did Mary think of that? There between the curtains was the October night, calm and lovely, with a star or two caught in the yellowing trees. Was she ready to resign her share of it and her memories (for they had been a happy family, though a large one) of games and quarrels up in Scotland, which she is never tired of praising for the fineness of its air and the quality of its cakes, in order that Fernham might have been endowed with fifty thousand pounds or so by a stroke of the pen? For, to endow a college would necessitate the suppression of families altogether. Making a fortune and bearing thirteen children--no human being could stand it.

The improved feeding and sanitation of the age of steam and so decreased infant mortality -- remember it was thought little short of miraculous that all of Queen Victoria's children lived to adulthood -- meant that it was practical for women to do things that would have been impractical in an era where a culture where women did not have on average ten children was one that was heading toward extinction.

Not, mind you, that's not implausibly treated most of the time. Many authors don't seem to realize that it started in a time when ten children and all the constraints involved were the average woman's life, just as the average man's was back-breaking agricultural labor.

Mary wrote: "Well, you must concede that the era of steam power was the era when women were improving their lot,..."

Yes, but as you said before, "In our world. This is not our world."

It seems perfectly within the purview of the author to wave her worldbuilding wand and dispense with infant mortality. Heartier population, herbs, magical healing, a boon from the Goddess, babies delivered by the stork or grown on trees, whatever. With elves and their legendary long life, they may actually have the opposite problem, overpopulation.

Regarding female rights, I'd rather say that it reflects Maia's upbringing. No one was interested in his education, as well. I think, Maia says so even in the novel somewhere.

I hate to admit it, but I constantly misspell Maia for Maja, because it remembers me of a famous series of my youth :)

G33z3r wrote: "Mary wrote: "Well, you must concede that the era of steam power was the era when women were improving their lot,..."

Yes, but as you said before, "In our world. This is not our world."

It seems ..."

We can show there are no other alliances they are seeking by their pattern of marriages. (which differs from our world. Somewhat.)

We can show that they are enjoying improved infant mortality with the advance of steam power, by the way the women's roles are changing in the manner that such an improvement would bring about. (As in our world.)

Andreas wrote: "Regarding female rights, I'd rather say that it reflects Maia's upbringing. No one was interested in his education, as well. I think, Maia says so even in the novel somewhere.

I hate to admit it, ..."

He not only says that no one was interested in his education, he says in the context of women not being deemed worth educating -- as in, me too.

Mary says: "Many authors don't seem to realize that it started in a time when ten children and all the constraints involved were the average woman's life, just as the average man's was back-breaking agricultural labor."

A friend who is now an author, said to me years ago that the reason stories were written about rich people is because these were the ones who could travel. Everyone else was tied to the cottage and probably didn't own a horse. Anywhere they went, they had to work for their keep or steal.

Thinking about it: rich men could also take mistresses and be away for long periods, in battle, supervising estates or whatever, which gave the wife a rest between children.

The lettered people tended not to be the rich, who had other people to do their scribing, but the religious orders, who used Latin. This was why long division was then considered impossible. No zero.

Another item relating to numbers of children; the Romans used lead piping and pewter plates (pewter incudes lead). They were not the first to use lead, which is easily shaped. Rich people had piped water and pewter plates; poor people had pottery and wood vessels. The rich of Rome had fewer children, as we now know that consuming lead leads to infertility.

G33z3r wrote: "So, Maia wants to be a thoroughly modern reformer ..." At first, I thought Maia might be a bit too much of a Mary Sue, but ultimately I thought his insecurity & continued (if apparently well-deserved) resentment of Setheris served to round his character out.

I do appreciate a novel's that's not too grimdark (something for which many reviewers have praised the book), but I wonder if Goblin Emperor errs a bit too much on the side of "can't we all just get along." I loved the dinner with Lanthevel that Maja was so dreading but that ended up including discussions of embroidery & linguistics, but it did seem that, after a certain point, we just stopped hearing about the nobles who still hated and/or disagreed politicall with Maia (view spoiler)[who weren't directly implicated in plotting & punished for it (hide spoiler)]. Surely he didn't win them all over (view spoiler)[by surviving a few attempted coups (hide spoiler)].

Hillary wrote: "At first, I thought Maia might be a bit too much of a Mary Sue, but ultimately I thought his insecurity & continued (if apparently well-deserved) resentment of Setheris served to round his character out...."

I also noticed Maia is big on avoidance. When he has unpleasant news to give someone, he generally gets one of his lackeys to take care of the conversation for him. So, not a Mary Sue.

I do think in many ways he's a 21st century ethos placed in his Renaissance world. (Or at least a late 20th century ethos.) His embrace of substantive roles for women, science and technology in trade, and his frequently expressed concern for the peasantry just isn't very Imperial.

Well, noblesse oblige can be Imperial ... but I'd agree that doesn't really describe Maia's attitude. I kind of like his "displaced 21st century person" attitudes b/c I tend to think "speculative fic" should focus on understanding/enacting/problematizing the ideals/issues of the writer's own time even if anachronistic re: historical models.