Support for Indie Authors discussion

This post will contain quite a lot of spoilers for my upcoming book (#2 of the Star Student series). I know that this will probably be almost impossible for you to have an opinion about since you haven't read it (no one has so far, since it's not finished yet), but I'll give it a try anyway.

Background: Lead character in this book, Carl (FBI child witness specialist, and former Star Student), gets to know that the woman (Miriam) he loves has died in a bombing. He helps out with the clearing of the bomb site and together with some other FBI officers he find the place where Miriam obviously been trapped. Problem is, she's not there anymore. It's like she's disappeared into thin air. Eventually Carl's presence is required in a serial killer case together with a young serial killer expert, Allie. Together Carl and Allie manage to solve the case and become very good friends, as well. Allie tells Carl to not give up hope, that Miriam has to be somewhere.

This is the two first parts, and here comes my problem. The last sentences are perfect endings to part two - but... I'd like part three to start with Miriam as lead character. She has been trapped in another dimension, a kind of dream world (Nyarlathotep and Carcosa, for those who are familiar with Lovecraft). The thing is, I want to have at least one more chapter before we get to meet Miriam. That chapter is going to contain one of the FBI officers that we met in the beginning at the bombed site who takes Carl to the 'door', the entrance to the dreamland where Miri is. That chapter will end with Carl entering the dreamland as well.

Sooo... after this probably very confused explanation, my question is: do you think that it's best to keep the chapter where Carl steps into the dreamland in part two, or do you think it's okay to start part three with that chapter and then switch to Miriam as lead?

Hm, writing this down might have helped me quite a bit, but I think I still want to hear some honest opinions.

Thanks to all of you who had the patience to read this far. :-)

Soooo how angry are you gonna be if I ask how did Carl get his supervisor to OK him to help with an investigation involving someone he knows?

Can you stretch Miriams investigation to fill chpt 1 and make the serial killer fill chpt 2? That way you get you Carl in Wonderland at the start of chapt 3 like you envissioned.

I think the more fundamental change within the story is Miriam's perspective, no matter how strong the sentences are to end the other part. So I would suggest ending a chapter on the strong sentences, then doing whatever other chapters you need to, then starting Part three fresh with Miriam in the lead.

As a general statement (uncertain of how you write, as I've not read your first book), I've never been one to subscribe to the idea that chapters must be of a uniform length. Readers can often tell when a scene is there for 'filler' to bulk out a chapter length. By all means, please get down the necessary information for plot and characterization and emotional impact (and, if you're like me, some fun sex), but if one chapter or section is shorter than another, don't let that worry you.

This is just my opinion. I'm overeducated and underemployed, and sure as hell not on the NYT bestseller's list.

*lol* I'm not getting angry.

The reason Carl gets to work at this place to begin with is that it's such a big mess, and they need to call in everybody they have, plus that no one knows that Miriam was there during the bombing, when he gets called in.

A.E. wrote: "*lol* I'm not getting angry.

The reason Carl gets to work at this place to begin with is that it's such a big mess, and they need to call in everybody they have, plus that no one knows that Miri..."

That sounds perfect then. If I was reading the book I wouldn't hickup at that.

Thanks, Jenycka, I think you're right about what you're saying. It would feel weird, eh, to suddenly change perspective between two chapters.

Well, I don't try to force my chapters to be of a certain length, but I'd like to have a certain uniformity to them. However, when I speak of rhythm, it's more how the words and chapters and parts work together, rather than length.

And yes, I've experimented a little with sex in this new book. The first one was initially written as a lovecraftian fanfic at a forum that didn't allow sex, but in this one a very free-thinking character forced herself in, so I didn't really have much of a choice...

Thanks, Hayden. I'm happy to hear that it doesn't test people's sense of reality. :-)

I know I'm an idiot, but explain lovecraftian? Is that a tv show or a video game? Forgive my ignorance of scifi culture.

Sorry, Jenycka (and I'm quite sure you're not an idiot). H.P. Lovecraft was a horror author that created a whole world of mythos that included deities from other planets, and monsters that lurk in shadows, and cults that worship these deities and do 'unspeakable things in their names'. This world has been recreated in various books, films, TV-shows, role-playing-games, and video games, and there are several different takes on it. I like the more gritty, realistic feeling in which we get to explore how the characters acts and reacts on what they are thrown into. If you've seen 'True Detective' - which actually ran on TV after I wrote 'In the Hands of the Unknown', you'll get a feeling of what I'm writing.

Jenycka wrote: " I'm overeducated and underemployed, and sure as hell not on the NYT bestseller's list. "

Can I join your club?

You are quite correct in that it's hard to say much without reading it, and my co-author and I do (according to some) ill-advised things with POVs. And, it's true that often just having to articulate the question can reveal the answer, which sounds like it might have been the case here.

So about all I think I can do is comment on what I'd like to know as a reader, based on what you said. Basically, that amounts to getting some grounding with Carl, his history with Miriam, and then his developing friendship with Allie. I'd like to understand all that, and why Allie tells him not give up hope, and how he reacts to that and what he thinks about it, before Miriam is introduced. I would think that takes at least two chapters.

Since the appearance of Miriam is the big pivot in the story (or so it seems) I'd want to be engaged with the other characters first. Also (I'm completely guessing here) when the POV switches to Miriam, two complementary things happen: we get to see "first-hand" if the impression we have of her via Carl stacks up, and we get to see Carl from a new POV, further illuminating Carl's character. But if this happens too soon in the story, I think it weakens the impact.

Chapter transitions are a tough. Personally I think that's and weakest part of our writing. If your previous chapters are more "self-contained" you can do a big switch without throwing the reader. Or you can have a thematic transition. Try to put this another way, I think of a story like music. In a symphony, sometimes a movement fully resolves, then you have that beat of silence and that cues the listener to expect that something quite different may follow. Or one movement blends into the next and the theme is elaborated on a continuum. Either way works.

I feel the same way about chapter length. It not a good idea to cram extra notes into a movement to make it the same length as another. Have it say what it needs to. When you're done, that's the time to harmonize things.

Hope something in the foregoing is useful. (I'm not much on the theory of writing, when it comes right down to it.)

A.E. wrote: "do you think that it's best to keep the chapter where Carl steps into the dreamland in part two, or do you think it's okay to start part three with that chapter and then switch to Miriam as lead?"

If Carl has been the central character in the first two parts, it makes more sense to start part three with Miriam as the lead. But, you know, either way would work if you execute it right.

I would suggest trying it one way and see how it reads, then try it the other. Go with the way it flows best.

Owen, you're great. I love those questions of yours. To clarify a little, the first book in the series, 'In the Hands of the Unknown', was completely written through Miriam's point of view, and in that book we get to see Carl from her (not very fond) impressions of him, and we get the developing relationship between the two of them, as well as the relation between Miriam and her boyfriend Henry. I do not get into this relationship at all in book two. I concentrate on Carl's feelings of loss (during the two years that have past since the first book, Miriam and Carl have become good friends), and his developing relationship with Allie.

I also have a feeling that I need to clarify my 'parts' and my 'chapters'. There are five chapters in Part One of 'Lost', and something between five and seven chapters in Part Two, so I have written about 100 letter sized pages about Carl so far, (and about 70 pages about his relationship with Allie).

Does that answer your questions?

Dwayne wrote: "I would suggest trying it one way and see how it reads, then try it the other. Go with the way it flows best."

Thanks, Dwayne. I think I like that suggestion too. I will start writing all the chapters before Miriam's 'introduction' into Part Two and see how it flows. If it doesn't, well, then I'll try the other way. :-)

Thanks for all your input, everyone. You're great.

Owen wrote: "why Allie tells him not give up hope,"

“You seem pretty certain that I will find her.” he mumbled, just to have her say that again.
“Of course I am. In my core, I’m a born optimist. You just need to start looking for her again.”

A.E. wrote: "Jenycka wrote: " I'm overeducated and underemployed, and sure as hell not on the NYT bestseller's list. "

Can I join your club?"

Sure. We spend a lot of time drinking and bitching about how our lives didn't turn out the way we imagined.

Jenycka wrote: "

Sure. We spend a lot of time drinking and bitching about how our lives didn't turn out the way we imagined."

Sounds like I'll fit in perfectly... *lol*

A.E. wrote: "Jenycka wrote: "

Sure. We spend a lot of time drinking and bitching about how our lives didn't turn out the way we imagined."

Sounds like I'll fit in perfectly... *lol*"

Awesome. I'm glad I'm not the only cranky disillusioned one on this board. May I ask what your job is?

A.E. wrote: "Owen, you're great. I love those questions of yours. To clarify a little, the first book in the series, 'In the Hands of the Unknown', was completely written through Miriam's point of view, and in ..."

Yes, that does. In that case, you have quite a bit a latitude and it probably comes down to a matter of emphasis. Therefore, for I'll just second Dwayne's comment. As an aside, I'll say that we once faced a similar question, and after beating our heads on it, we sent out two beta versions to two different set of beta readers, to see what they thought (neither knew about the other version). That might be a method of last resort, but it is an option when needed.

A.E. wrote: “You seem pretty certain that I will find her.” he mumbled, just to have her say that again.
“Of course I am. In my core, I’m a born optimist. Y..."

Nice touch. : )

How do I get a copy of your book?

I'm a huge fan of ending with a hook to keep people picking up the book. (yay i'm a poet!)

I would end at the door and pick up with Miriam. I think I read all of that that right anyway.

Owen wrote: "we sent out two beta versions to two different set of beta readers, to see what they thought"
I like that idea. If I get stuck (hopefully not), that might be something I'd like to try out.


Owen wrote: "How do I get a copy of your book? "
Well, it's on sale on Amazon and Kobo and Lulu and at my website (www.hellhag.productions.com), but - after following the thread about pricing - it seems as not many are willing to pay CAD$9.99 for a book by an unknown author, so if you ask nicely, I'll give it to you for free. :-)

Jenycka wrote: "Awesome. I'm glad I'm not the only cranky disillusioned one on this board. May I ask what your job is? "

Originally I have an MA in Scientific Archaeology, but after I became a mom and stayed at home a year, I wasn't 're-hireable' in my field again, for some reason, so I worked at Sears four years as a photographer and then I went to New York Institute of Photography. I'm quite good as a photographer, but not as a marketer, so clients are few and far between. The rest of my time I work on my books.

What about you? What's your background? I'm honestly quite intrigued by your author presentation, and as with the story about my father selling the Panama Canal to the mafia, I'm wondering if your PI-experience is real? (And absolutely no offense. Just very curious. Things like that certainly happens, but not usually to people I know...) :-)

Hm, and why did that come out all italic...?

Forum bug.

My bio is very much tongue in cheek. I haven an MA in English/creative writing and when I graduated I couldn't get a job in my field. So I started working with teenagers with mental health and intellectual disabilities who have been through the juvenile justice system and six years later here I am. I care about what I do, but I'm burning out fast so I know I won't last much longer. Im looking at other options. Maybe an online editing service for the time being.

Oh wow, Jenycka, that kind of work certainly takes a toll, especially if you can't shut it off, which is hard to do when it comes to living beings. Online editing is actually a great thing to get into. I would too if my first language had been English. I think there are great opportunities out there in that field. And with an MA in English and Creative writing you have nothing to lose, eh?

Iffix wrote: "It just means your geek rating went down. "

*lol* That on the other hand is a very important rating... ;-) Just kidding. But seriously, I find it extremely difficult writing about tentacles in a way that makes it scary. According to those who read 'Ithotu' it worked though.

Jenycka wrote: "I know I'm an idiot, but explain lovecraftian? Is that a tv show or a video game? Forgive my ignorance of scifi culture."

Lovecraftian is a term for a specific genre of horror/sci-fi/fantasy that was pioneered by H.P Lovecraft. His stories focused on occult, world devouring horrors that were trapped outside of our time and space, or sleeping beneath the ocean, that cultists and other idiots would occasionally try to summon. He is one of the fathers of what I consider to be supernatural horror, and a fine short story author.

A.E. wrote: "This post will contain quite a lot of spoilers for my upcoming book (#2 of the Star Student series). "

I think that's fine. It's nice to leave a hook and go back to it later. That's called signposting, and it is a good tool to give an emotional payback to the reader when they get to go "Oh yeah, that, I recognize that!" when you return to it.

Igzy wrote: "That's called signposting."

Had no idea. Maybe I'm better at marketing than I thought... ;-)

A.E. wrote: "Igzy wrote: "That's called signposting."

Had no idea. Maybe I'm better at marketing than I thought... ;-)"

Clearly :D.

A.E. wrote: "Well, it's on sale on Amazon and Kobo and Lulu and at my website (www.hellhag.productions.com), but - after following the thread about pricing - it seems as not many are willing to pay CAD$9.99 for a book by an unknown author, so if you ask nicely, I'll give it to you for free. :-) ..."

Thanks for the info. (The Amazon link on the books page here was broken BTW -- I should've checked you're site.) Yes, as far as I've heard, the great majority of people balk at paying more than $4.99[US] for a new author, and a lot seem to think that is about the upper limit for any eBook.

So thanks for that offer, but I'd prefer to pay my way. (I hope that doesn't come across as being churlish in refusing your generosity; I just think author should get paid for there efforts.)

PS: Those italics are a result of the closing italics tag getting stepped on. You will see the quoted text in a post enclosed in an "i" and a "/i" each with angle brackets: "<" and ">". If that /I at the end gets stepped on, the whole reply will be in italics -- the /i is an "off switch."

Owen wrote: "The Amazon link on the books page here was broken BTW"

Yeah, I decided to change the price after reading through that thread on book pricing, so now it's on sale for $4.99 (can't really force myself to go lower than that), but it will take Amazon awhile to change it and put it back on their site. It's still available on Kobo and my website at the new price as well. And, thanks for your interest. It makes me very happy. :-)

(And, also, thanks for letting me know about the italics thing. :-) )

A.E. wrote: "And, thanks for your interest. It makes me very happy. :-) ..."

It makes me happy to find new, worthy authors. :-)

Owen wrote: "It makes me happy to find new, worthy authors. :-)"

Aww, now I feel touched. <3

A.E. wrote: "Owen wrote: "It makes me happy to find new, worthy authors. :-)"

Aww, now I feel touched. <3"

I'm a little wasted so I want to make an obnoxious comment about touching people but that doesn't belong on this board. :P A.E., Owen is freaking amazing. Hold him tight and don't let him go.

Jenycka wrote: "A.E., Owen is freaking amazing. Hold him tight and don't let him go."

Not planning on letting him go. :-)

Okay... so for you who helped me out: a huge 'thank you' is in place. I think it worked just fine. :-) Here's part of the last chapter in Part Two, if you're interested in how I wrote it. Next chapter will start Part Three and be from Miriam's point of view. Don't mind how the formatting screwed up. :-)


Suddenly his cell phone rang. Allie again; he smiled to himself as he answered.
“Yeah?”
“Hi, Carl, Mike Jones here.” The rough voice surprised him momentarily since he had expected Allie’s happy voice. Thinking about it, Mike’s voice sounded jovial enough, but there was something… something…
“Oh, hi, Mike. How’s it going?”
“Not bad, not bad. The clearing is pretty much finished, thanks to all the resources helping out. Haven’t seen you around the last weeks. You all good?”
“Yeah, I guess. They required me at the homicide department, so I’ve been there.”
“Is that so? The hom-dep? Something serious?”
Carl glanced at his file on the table. “Yeah, you could say that again.”
“Huh. Yeah, I won’t ask you about it. Anyway, there was one thing, though… I followed a hunch today and went down to the basement again…”
For some reason the hair on Carl’s arms suddenly stood up and a chill ran down his spine.
“Yeah?”
“So I found this ring…”
“A ring?” Carl repeated slowly.
“Yeah, just lying there on the floor, gleaming when I looked around with the flashlight. It’s a small ring formed like a band of stars, some kind of goldish silver.” Carl looked down at his hand where a small band of stars adorned his little finger. “It’s not yours, is it?”
“Um, no.” He had to clear his throat.
“Yeah, I had a hunch it wouldn’t be.” Mike fell silent for a couple of seconds. “You know, I try to keep an open mind. I’ve seen some weird shit I’d hesitate to tell others about, but I have a hunch you could tell some stories of your own, am I right?”
“Yeah…” Carls said, suddenly hoarse and with beating heart.
“Thing is, you see, this ring ain’t on its own. There’s a small piece of a scarf there too, a red, silky one, matching in color of that coat we found.” Mike fell silent again, and Carl held his breath. “Thing is… that scarf… it’s… stuck… in the air… as if someone’s been walking through a door that closed behind and caught the end of the scarf... Know what I mean?”
“Yeah…” Carl’s voice was faint.
“Thought you might want to take a look at it.”
“Are you around?”
“I can be.”
“I’ll be right over.” As he hung up, a big sweat mark from the palm of his hand was clearly seen on the phone handle.
He didn’t really appreciate that the dusk had set when he parked the car at the still blocked off area. This time there weren’t any spectators hovering around. It’s old news already; he thought with a grimace. There weren’t any FBI around either. Too late in the evening and no more survivors to be found. The thought felt like a sharp flash in his heart.
He showed his badge to the security guard who stood at the interim gate and got passage immediately. During the two weeks he’d been absent the scene had been cleared of all debris that were left. He looked around, astonished. Amazing. They’ve been working like crazy. He wondered how many victims and survivors the final count landed at.
There were no sounds except for the quiet crunch under his feet. A couple of security guards nodded at him as he passed by on his way to the van. The light that shone through the tiny window comforted him. When he opened the door to the van, the big African-American immediately stood up and Carl could tell that he felt anxious.
“I came as quickly as I could.”
“Yeah, let’s go and take a look.” He led the way out to the now totally cleared former ground floor where they’d found the crack. The ladder was still standing there and Mike went down. Carl followed not even a second later. As soon as they hit the basement floor both of the men lit their flashlights. Carl stared quietly at the floating piece of Miri’s scarf. It really looked as if it was fastened in a slit of a door, just that the door was invisible. His hands became sweaty again as did his forehead. He let his light play around in the dark room, while trying to compose himself.
“Where did you find the ring?” he asked. Mike pointed towards an area not far from where the scarf defied gravitation. Carl nodded towards the scarf.
“Have you touched it?”
Mike scoffed. “No way! Who knows what would happen? That’s a task for someone braver than me.”
Carl moved forward, letting his light shine over the piece of fabric. Shadows played over the wall. He squinted. It looked like… it actually did look like there was a pale, indistinct shadow of a door on the floor. He pointed.
“Do you see that?”
“What? The shadow? Yeah.”
“The shadow of the door.”
Mike gave him a quick side-glance before looking at the floor more thoroughly.
“Huh! What the hell…”
“Do you think we can open it?”
“You wanna go in? What, are you crazy?”
“It’s Miri’s scarf. It’s her ring. This is the only way she could’ve got out of here. She’s somewhere on the other side of that door and I need to find her.”
He took a couple of steps towards where the scarf hung and it was as if the air around it vibrated. Carl studied it with mixed feelings of helplessness, anxiety and determination. If this is the only way to find her… I have to go in. There’s no other option. I’ve seen things that must be worse than what’s behind this door. Right? He pulled vigorously at his hair and continued to stare at the vibrating air. It felt as if the longer he stared, the more solid did the door become. The low gasp from Mike behind him told him that he didn’t imagine it. Eventually the door stood solidly in front of him looking as normal as any regular, white interior door, except the fact that it levitated one inch above ground. Without letting his gaze flinch he said: “Do you have a family, Mike?”
“What?”
“Do you have a family?”
“Why…? Yes, my wife and three sons.”
“Go home. I don’t know if it’s possible to get out when you’ve gotten in, and your family needs you, Mike.”
“Yeah? And what about your daughter? She’s not as valuable as my sons or she doesn’t need you as much as my sons need me? What the hell, Carl! Give me a fucking break!”
He drew a shaky breath and felt a tear try to escape his eye.
“That was a bit unfair, Mike.” he said hoarsely. “Miriam is the person I hope will become my family, but she can’t as long as she’s in there. If I don’t come back, Sarah will always be cared for by her mother, just as she is now.”
Mike put a hand on his shoulder.
“I’m sorry. This place makes me a bit jittery.”
“That’s okay. You know, Mike, in any case, someone needs to stay behind and inform my faculty about this… whatever it is, and seal the area so no one else stumbles in here by mistake. I daren’t leave it now. I might not find it again.”
Mike grumbled. “Why does what you say now suddenly make sense? Damnit, Carl, I don’t want to leave you on your own.”
A sudden smile appeared on Carl’s face. How come he hadn’t noticed before how cared for he was by so many people, how many people out there who were friends disguised as strangers?
“I hope you know how much I appreciate that, Mike.”
“Goddamn, Carl, you and your flowery words. I don’t give a shit about how ‘appreciated’ I am. I give a shit about you going in through some damn floating door with whatever in there.”
“I know, but I need to. I need to go in there now, before I lose this damn door.” Sweat started to break out on his forehead as he concentrated at keeping the door visible. A thought struck him. “Do you know Sally Oakley?”
“Yeah, she’s my superior.”
“Good, she’s my superior too. Give her a call and let her know what’s going on. She’s gonna come here and help me out, but I really need to go in now. I’m starting to lose it.”
“Goddamn, Carl... Alright, alright, I’ll call her, but then you owe me a damn beer and a fucking explanation.”
“Deal on that.”
With a slightly shaking hand Carl gripped the flickering door knob. Surprised at the cool touch he turned it and the door opened up silently in front of him. His gasp blended with Mikes. Miri’s scarf floated down slowly and landed on the threshold. A cool breeze touched his face and he found himself looking out on a town, an old European kind of a town, which slept silently in the night. Carl swallowed and cleared his voice.
“Wish me luck, Mike.”
“Carl...”
Without acknowledging the pleading tone he took one step over the threshold and found himself standing on the top of a high grass clad hill. When he turned around the door was gone.

Beautiful ending. I like it. Now the reader has to keep reading.

Charles wrote: "Beautiful ending. I like it. Now the reader has to keep reading."

Aww, thank you!!! <3

That's gorgeous. That book will be on my to-buy list.

Jenycka wrote: "That's gorgeous. That book will be on my to-buy list."

Aww, I'm happy that you like it. I'm always so nervous putting things out to people, so when they seem to like it I'm over-joyed. :-)

That was really good. Thank you for posting that.

Hayden wrote: "That was really good. Thank you for posting that."

Thank you, Hayden. It made me really happy to hear. :-)