The History Book Club discussion

Just realized it might be interesting to keep track of the size of Michelangelo's works.

Madonna of the Stairs: 56.7 cm × 40.1 cm (22.3 in × 15.8 in) or about 1 1/2 foot by 1 foot

Battle of the Centaurs: 84.5 cm × 90.5 cm (33.3 in × 35.6 in) or about 3 foot square

Interesting Elizabeth.

Commentary on Book 4, subsection 1:

The very first thing M does in this subsection is hide his two reliefs under the bed. Suddenly it occurred to me, how big are these things? I had been picturing each one as wall-sized. Turns out they are much smaller. See comment #51.

We could spend a lot of time discussing whether M is humble or proud. I think Stone presents him as both. For example, here he wrote: "Michelangelo replied humbly, 'Pride is all I have left at the moment, Father.'"

There are some stark comparisons between Lorenzo and his son here. On the one hand, it really emphasizes what a great man Lorenzo was. On the other hand, how could Lorenzo not have taught his son better? Did he not realize how selfish and unable his son was? If so, was there nothing such a talented man could do to ameliorate his son's influence after his death? Every great man has at least one flaw, and perhaps Lorenzo's was his son.

Book 4, subsection 3:

I really enjoy the discussions about how to approach a work of art. I like the questions M asks himself: At what age should he carve Hercules? Is he done with the tasks, or in the middle? Is he wearing a trophy, or naked? All these things make such a difference in how the figure is presented.

And then we get to the cadaver carving issue. In looking at history, I've often thought doctors should have had more access to study the human body to help them better heal others. Yes, the family's sensibilities should be taken in consideration. Just as today, usually the family is asked before an autopsy is done. But for the purposes of art? Does anyone think that makes a difference?

Found another good site:

www.michelangelo.com/buon

It has good summaries of each period of his life. The first period is from 1475-1504. I read the first couple of paragraphs, but figure I'll go read the rest after I get to that point in the book. It is interesting how much of Stone's book actually happened.

The site also has a page that lists good books about Michelangelo, some with biographical focus and some with artistic focus. And some interesting free wallpaper.

This does look like a great site...thank you.

Just finished Book 4.

The later half of this book seems something of a hodge-podge. A little sculpting, a little "love", a little politics, some friendship, some family.

I like M's stand, and everyone else's stand too, when Pietro asks for help to attack Florence. Well put.

What do you all think of Clarissa? I just don't get her. Sure, it makes sense for M to be in love with her. Or perhaps in lust with her would be more accurate. He doesn't ever want to go talk and discuss things with her, just look at her and lust after her. And what does she see in him? There just isn't much character development for her, so I can't tell. Maybe she really admires his sculpting, maybe she likes broken noses, who knows.

Do you think we'll see Clarissa again in this book? At this point, I'm thinking no. I think her whole point is to demonstrate that M is not a virgin, that he isn't just sculpture, sculpture, sculpture all the time. Done. Move on to next girl.

We do see Contessina again. Which is interesting, as to some extent M has moved on.

I continue to enjoy M's (fictional) internal debates about how to represent someone, what age to make him, how big, how strong, etc. It is the crafting of the story told through the art.

The artificial aging of the statue is amusing to me. I guess I see it as that way for M, too. He did it not to see how much money he could get, he did it to see if he could do it.

And, is it just me, or do the descriptions of the destruction of art and knowledge just hurt? Ouch.

What else caught your eye in this book? Lots to choose from.

Elizabeth..because of Thanksgiving coming up..I have not been able to focus on this but will try to get caught up for you later this week. Great questions by the way.

No hurry, no worries. Have a wonderful Thanksgiving.

Just finished Book 5:

In this book, Michelangelo finishes his Bacchus and his Pieta. According to wikipedia, a "Pieta" is a work of art showing Mary (the mother) holding Jesus after his death, usually done in sculpture.

In looking at pictures of these two pieces (good links from this page), I wanted to walk around the sculptures and see them from other angles. I guess I'm understanding a little of what M kept saying about sculpture being art from all sides. It was interesting to me to compare M's Pieta with this one from the 15th centure, i.e. not much earlier. I can see why M wanted to change the norm and why his attention to life-like detail made for greater art.

When reading about the Bacchus, I couldn't help but wonder that the description was describing more than was actually in the art. How could something have muscle, but also a sagging belly? But in looking at the piece, I really see it. So much of art is not just the ability to replicate what you see, but also the selection of what and how to replicate, the posing, the composition. M really brings that all together.

Up until now I've been thinking of the polishing of a sculpture as merely toweling it down after it is done. But the description of the polishing of the Pieta helps me understand more. The descriptions in subsection 12 help, he polished "slowly, with infinite patience, over long days and weeks." And how he polished in "the recessions, cavities and undulations of hair, cloth, fingernails." Now I think of it as the final details of the piece.

M's experience with Cardinal Riaro set the stage for M to move out on his own. If all his patrons were generous and art-focused, why would M need his own space? But how frustrating, to be "hired" but not given either work or pay.

We also see some remarkable dedication to family here. Can you think of anyone in their early 20's sending 80% of their earnings to their father and brothers, knowing that much of it may be squandered? When M's brother came, and M put him to work on his new apartment without asking, my first thought was astonishment that M would assume so much. Then I realized that it was just the other half of the assumption. M's father assumed M would help, M assumed his brother would help, etc. A dedicated family and time.

I'm still curious what will take M from his focus on sculpture. There is some foreshadowing as he visits the Sistine Chapel in this Book, subsection 2, viewing the wonderful frescoes by his old master and others. The Chapel was only about 20 years old then.

There is also some foreshadowing of M's architectural future as he meets with an architect he respects (Sangallo, see subsection 4), and one he does not (Bramante, see subsection 11 near the end). He also laments the leaning St. Peter's and worries about putting his Pieta inside. We see some interesting comparisons between sculpture and architecture.

There is lots more to discuss here, if anyone wants. The making of friends and enemies; relationship with apprentice; what it means to be a patron of the arts; and more.

Elizabeth...great synopsis..though I love your questions like you posed previously..it gives me something to look out for in reading.

I am very very behind and have to keep up with the other reading first (No Ordinary Time and Federalist) so I am doing this as I have time. Will catch up though.

Hmm. Questions. Let's see:

For Book 5:

What do you think of Florence destroying so much art and knowledge at the command of Savonarola? Is there ever a reason to destroy art or books?

Later, Florence rids itself of Savonarola. In what ways is the city running from one extreme to another? Is Florence searching for identity? (By the way, after Savonarola's little "strike me dead if I'm not inspired" act, I love how someone got the brilliant idea to turn the tables on him.)

Michelangelo has a love for all stone, not just sculpted stone. In subsection 3, he asks permission to fashion stone correctly for a building project. We've often seen him return to the stone quarry of his adopted family. We read that in Florence the people think more of the stone than the builders in Rome. Have any of us ever thought about stone any more than the builders in Rome? Is M right, should we respect it more, even today?

In what ways is Rome a superior city to Florence, and vice-versa?

For both the Bacchus and the Pieta, what do you think of the final product? Do you like M's choices as far as position, composition, facial expressions, and body language? (Am I the only one who suddenly wants to visit Florence and Rome?) Is this the kind of art you would love to see frequently?

These are terrific...but with house guests and holiday obligations..things are tough this week...keeping the head above water.

Just finished book 6. Here is some info and links on the works of art in this book. Getting more prolific...

David: the famous, amazing David. See here for two angles on it. And here for a good close-up showing the expression on his face. Here is an interesting project, done by a group at Standford, they worked on digitizing Michelangelo's works by carefully scanning them in. They have an "animated flyaround" for the David. Interestingly, they said about the scanning of David, "The actual difficulty of the task surprised us. In particular, the statue contained more recesses and partially occluded surfaces than we anticipated, and positioning the gantry to reach them required more time and effort than we imagined."

Go here to see Donatello's Judith that David replaced.

Bruges Madonna: This is the one done through Galli. Here is a picture of it. It is 128 cm, or a little over 4 feet, tall.

Piccolomini Altar statues: You can see the whole thing here. I see why Michelangelo was annoyed by the statues being recessed and hard to see.

Doni Holy Family: This is the "peasant family on the beach" one that he painted. See it here. It is 120cm square, or almost 4 foot square.

Pitti Madonna: The one the family asked for and liked when they got it. Here. It is about 86x82cm (or almost 3ft square). In subsection 12, when he delivers the piece, Stone says, "The Pitti were speechless, then the parents and childen began to talk and laugh all at once, to run around the room to see the piece from different angles." That is how I feel with a lot of this sculpture. The flat on my screen is not enough, I want to run around and see it from other angles.

The bronze copy of Donatello's David is evidently lost. Here is a page showing models found in Michelangelo's house, compared with the known David and drawings. The webpage also speculates about the Hercules M did much earlier, which is also lost.

Side note for those of us who were children at just the right time: We have now seen in The Agony and the Ecstasy all four artists who inspired the names of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles - had to look them up: (message 65 had me on a quest)

The turtles bear the first names of the famous Renaissance artists Leonardo da Vinci, Michelangelo di Lodovico Buonarroti Simoni, Raffaello "Raphael" Sanzio da Urbino, and Donato "Donatello" di Niccolò di Betto Bardi.

Shortened versions: Leonardo, Donatello, Michelangelo, and Raphael

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teenage_...

Should have included a link to help you with the turtles, huh. My brother and I were big fans for about a year. Just watched the cartoons, though, never went in for the action figures or anything. Michelangelo was my favorite turtle, because yellow was my favorite color and he wore the orangish/yellowish mask. Ah, the joys of childhood.

Yes..you are making me grin with your remembrance of times past (smile).

I had to know their names...(lol)

I am wondering if there was any significance with the color chosen for the artists...sorry turtles.

I doubt there was any significance on the color, but I don't know for sure. The thing I keep thinking about as I read Agony is that Leonardo was picked for the leader of the turtles since Leonardo da Vinci is now considered the premier artist of the four. The real Michelangelo would not have been pleased.

Very true...I guess the originator of the Turtles had an artistic or philosophical bias (lol)

Questions for Book 6:

(NOTE: Questions for a particular book may contain spoilers for the current book. But I'm writing these questions before reading on, so there are no intended spoilers for later books.)

We seen a lot of agony and ecstasy from Michelangelo so far. What agonies have hit you the hardest as you read? What ecstasies were the most fun to read? Is M’s life balanced between the two, or does he experience one more than another?

M often longs to do something new, something original. What kind of artist do you think M would be if he had the same dreams today? Could he have developed as a sculptor? Or gone another way? In what way would he have been original?

Prior Bichiellini seems concerned with M’s ethics for not finishing the accepted contract with Cardinal Piccolomini before moving on to the David. Is M justified in such a switch? Taking into consideration that M accepting Piccolomini’s contract was part of the reason he won the David block, is there anything else M could have done?

Nudity. It can be a touchy question. Personally, I’m not a big nude-art lover. Yet I see M’s point. And his stuff is much stronger showing the human form. There is much more power there than “just draperies.” What do you think? Is nudity in art different than nudity on the street? Would David have been any worse with a carefully placed loincloth, for example?

Now we see what drove M to branch out to more than just sculpture, the rivalry of Leonardo da Vinci. What does this tell us of the value of a challenge? Would people be as stretched, and perform as well, without someone to somehow drive them?

At the end of this book, I see M way over his head in commissions. And the writing on the wall seems to be that something will go wrong with the Pope's grand almost-commission. Where do you think M is headed?

For any or all of the pieces described in Book 6 (see message #64 for a list with links to the pictures), what do you think? Which one(s) would you want to see often? How would you critique each one?