The History Book Club discussion

This is the thread dedicated to the development of the British Empire and supremacy at sea:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/...

I think that the book listed below is a decent account to start of this period off interesting maritime history:

by Tim Clayton

I have a copy but haven't had time to read it yet however I have it on my list to read soon. Has anyone read it and if so what did they think?

Thank you for starting to add to this interest area. I personally have not read this book; but I am sure somebody in the group has.

Here is a series of books on British naval history that looks quite interesting. I stumbled across the first book on amazon years ago. It was listed as the first in a 4-part series. I thought I'd wait to read it until all 4 are out. But the first was 1999 and the second 2006, so it may take a while.

N.A.M. Rodger

Great finds Elizabeth..thank you.

Here is a very good book covering this period of history that may interest other readers:


by Arthur Herman
Review:
"Arthur Herman manages to tell the extraordinary story of the Royal Navy and its impact on modern history in a single compelling volume. Herman has written a marvellous book." - Saul David, Daily Telegraph

"He's certainly written a rattling good book. He is one of those historians who know how to pile on the information and keep their readers turning the page." - Sunday Herald

"TO RULE THE WAVES is a riveting story told by a masterful historian." - Los Angeles Times

I have two new naval books to offer, both covering something a bit different:


by Sam Willis
Publisher:
"J.M.W. Turner's The Fighting Temeraire Tugged to her Last Berth to be Broken Up (1838) was his masterpiece, and in a recent BBC Radio 4 poll to find the nation's favourite painting it won by a landslide, receiving over a quarter of all votes cast and fighting off Constable's The Hay Wain and other equally well-known works by Manet, Hockney and Van Gogh. Sam Willis tells the real-life story behind this remarkable painting. The 98-gun Temeraire warship broke through the French and Spanish line directly astern of Nelson's flagship Victory during the Battle of Trafalgar (1805), saving Nelson at a crucial moment in the battle, and, in the words of John Ruskin, fought until her sides ran 'wet with the long runlets of English blood - those pale masts that stayed themselves up against the war-ruin, shaking out their ensigns through the thunder, till sail and ensign dropped.' It is a story that unites the art of war as practised by Nelson with the art of war as depicted by Turner and, as such, it ranges across an extensive period of Britain's cultural and military history in ways that other stories do not. The result is a detailed picture of British maritime power at two of its most significant peaks in the age of sail: the climaxes of both the Seven Years' War (1756-63) and the Napoleonic Wars (1798-1815). It covers every aspect of life in the sailing navy, with particular emphasis on amphibious warfare, disease, victualling, blockade, mutiny and, of course, fleet battle, for it was at Trafalgar that the Temeraire really won her fame. An evocative and magnificent narrative history by a master historian."

Review:
"Absorbing and enjoyable biography... He (Sam Willis) is a reliable and readable guide to the naval history embodied in the Temeraire. His book cleverly uses the microcosm of the life story of one ship to reflect the wider narrative of the decades-long struggle between Britain and France for mastery of the seas." - Sunday Times

by Frank L. Fox
Publisher:
"On 1 June 1666 a large but outnumbered English fleet engaged the Dutch off the mouth of the Thames in a colossal battle that was to involve nearly 200 ships and last four days. False intelligence had led the English to divide their fleet to meet a phantom threat from France and although the errant squadron rejoined on the final day of the battle, it was not enough to redress the balance. Like many a defeat, it sparked controversy at the time, and has been the subject of speculation and debate ever since. The battle was an event of such overwhelming complexity that for centuries it defied description and deterred study but this superbly researched book is now recognised as the definitive account. Published in a limited edition in 1996, it provides the first clear exposition of the opposing forces, fills many holes in the narrative and answers most of the questions raised by the actions of the English commanders. It makes for a thoroughly engrossing story, and one worthy of the greatest battle of the age of sail."

Another recent release covering this interesting period of history is:

by Jonathan R. Dull
Publishers blurb:
For nearly two hundred years huge wooden warships called “ships of the line” dominated war at sea and were thus instrumental in the European struggle for power and the spread of imperialism. Foremost among the great naval powers were Great Britain and France, whose advanced economies could support large numbers of these expensive ships. This book, the first joint history of these great navies, offers a uniquely impartial and comprehensive picture of the two forces, their shipbuilding programs, naval campaigns, and battles, and their wartime strategies and diplomacy.

Jonathan R. Dull is the author of two award-winning histories of the French navy. Bringing to bear years of study of war and diplomacy, his book conveys the fine details and the high drama of the age of grand and decisive naval conflict. Dull delves into the seven wars that Great Britain and France, often in alliance with lesser naval powers such as Spain and the Netherlands, fought between 1688 and 1815. Viewing war as most statesmen of the time saw it—as a contest of endurance—he also treats the tragic side of the Franco-British wars, which shattered the greater security and prosperity the two powers enjoyed during their brief period as allies.

Here is a one in my library that I have read and enjoyed:

by Paul M. Kennedy

Bryan wrote: "Here is a one in my library that I have read and enjoyed:

by Paul M. Kennedy"

Hi Bryan, that looks like an interesting book. I will have to check it out. I just finished Jonathan Dull's (terrible name for an author don't you think?) book "The Age of the Ship of the Line" which offered a very good concise history of this period of sail.

by Jonathan R. Dull

He also wrote:

by Paul Kennedy

I found this book by chance the other day and it could referenced in the Napoleonic thread as well as here but seems to cover the use of sea-power by Britain to fight its enemies on land; "Defying Napoleon".

by Thomas Munch-Petersen
Publishers blurb:
The events surrounding the British bombardment of Copenhagen in 1807 are an engrossing story full of high drama. They involve some of the most fascinating military and political personalities of the period, including the future Duke of Wellington. In the three weeks between 16 August and 5 September 1807, the British landed, assaulted and captured the city of Copenhagen before making off with the Danish fleet. The expedition to Zealand in 1807 to seize the Danish Navy must rank as one of the most successful combined military operations in history - swift, ruthless and effective. It is also the first example in modern history of terror bombardment used against a major European city. The expedition was prompted by fears that Napolean would seize the Danish fleet and turn it against Britain, since although Denmark was neutral, she was thought to be susceptible to pressure from a new alliance between France and Russia. Britain's decision to launch her pre-emptive attack was based largely on inaccurate intelligence reports, and some parallels can be drawn with the American-led Coalition's invasion of Iraq in 2003.

Aussie Rick, thank you for all of your adds this evening. All are terrific.

The Making of the British Navy:

http://www.suite101.com/content/the-m...

by Nicholas Rogers

Brief Synopsis:

"The men who served in Nelson’s navy often did so unwillingly, and Nicholas Rogers’s The Press Gang: Naval Impressment and its Opponents in Georgian Britain (Continuum, 2008) links the wooden world afloat with the development of society ashore, overturning many assumptions along the way."

Source: BBC History

Hi Tim,

I actually found "To Rule the Waves" quite good although I have not read that other book you mentioned by the same author. Lawrence James is a prolific author and generally quite good.

by Arthur Herman

Tim, where does James stop in his book? It is on my "to read" list and was curious where he stops in the break-up of the empire.

by Lawrence James

Tim wrote: "Bryan

He ends with a a couple pages on the future of Hong Kong. The book was published in 1997 before Hong Kong became Chinese again. The last two chapters are about the final break up of Africa..."

Excellent, I'm glad to hear it. Can't wait to read it!

If you guys like books about the British Empire I could also recommend; "The Decline and Fall of the British Empire" by Piers Brendon which I read not long ago and really enjoyed.

by Piers Brendon
Publishers blurb:
No empire has been larger or more diverse than the British Empire. At its apogee in the 1930s, 42 million Britons governed 500 million foreign subjects. Britannia ruled the waves and a quarter of the earth’s surface was painted red on the map. Where Britain’s writ did not run directly, its influence, sustained by matchless industrial and commercial sinews, was often paramount. Yet no empire (except the Russian) disappeared more swiftly. Within a generation this mighty structure sank almost without trace, leaving behind a scatter of sea-girt dependencies and a ghost of empire, the British Commonwealth of nations. Equally, it can be claimed that Britain bequeathed its former colonies economic foundations, a cultural legacy, a sporting spirit, a legal code and a language more ubiquitous than Latin ever was. In a book of unparalleled scholarship, Piers Brendon presents the story of the decline and eclipse of British might, the major historical event in the closing stages of the second millennium. Full of vivid particulars, brief lives, telling anecdotes, comic episodes, symbolic moments and illustrative vignettes, The Decline and Fall of the British Empire evokes remote places as well as distant times. From the war for American independence, the end of the Raj, the ‘scram out of Africa’ and the unfinished business of the Falklands and Hong Kong to the new ‘informal’ empire of the United States, this is a comprehensive and engaging account.

Reviews:
“This is an immense book...It's the telling, often hilarious detail that propels the vast narrative.” - Independent

“He has not only followed major contours but has also skilfully filled in the crevices, often with wry humour”. - History Today

“Quite simply, a masterpiece of historical narrative'.” - Literary Review

“Brendon with an acute eye for detail...serves up a veritable gorefest in which all sides slake their lusts.” - Scotland on Sunday.

“magnificent....a narrative masterpiece.... Brendon tells with extraordinary flair and sympathy.” - The Sunday Telegraph.

“an extraordinary story, and he tells it well.” – The Irish Times

“a marathon read, a grand Cook's tour of imperial history.” - ' The Scotsman

“One should never use the term masterpiece lightly...here it seems amply justified, such is the quality of his erudition” - The Daily Express

“[a] provocative, marvellously readable account.” - Ian Thomson, FT

“one of the most colourful and blood-soaked narratives of the year.” - Dominic Sandbook, Telegraph

Thanks, A.R., this looks good, too.

Thinking about the British empires...What connection does Australia have to Britain today. It is a commonwealth country, correct? What does this mean?

Hi Bryan, Australia is still part of the Commonwealth, like other former countries of the British Empire (Canada, etc), but has cut nearly all ties with the 'mother country'. I took this information from Wikipedia:

The Commonwealth of Nations, normally referred to as the Commonwealth and previously known as the British Commonwealth, is an intergovernmental organisation of fifty-four independent member states. All but two (Mozambique and Rwanda) of these countries were formerly part of the British Empire.
The member states co-operate within a framework of common values and goals as outlined in the Singapore Declaration. These include the promotion of democracy, human rights, good governance, the rule of law, individual liberty, egalitarianism, free trade, multilateralism and world peace. The Commonwealth is not a political union, but an intergovernmental organisation through which countries with diverse social, political and economic backgrounds are regarded as equal in status.
Its activities are carried out through the permanent Commonwealth Secretariat, headed by the Secretary-General, and biennial meetings between Commonwealth Heads of Government. The symbol of their free association is the Head of the Commonwealth, which is a ceremonial position currently held by Queen Elizabeth II. Elizabeth II is also monarch, separately and independently, of sixteen Commonwealth members, which are known as the "Commonwealth realms".
The Commonwealth is a forum for a number of non-governmental organisations, collectively known as the Commonwealth Family, which are fostered through the intergovernmental Commonwealth Foundation. The Commonwealth Games, the Commonwealth's most visible activity, are a product of one of these organisations. These organisations strengthen the shared culture of the Commonwealth, which extends through common sports, literary heritage, and political and legal practices. Due to this, Commonwealth countries are not considered to be "foreign" to one another. Reflecting this, diplomatic missions between Commonwealth countries are designated as High Commissions rather than embassies.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Hi Bryan, Australia is still part of the Commonwealth, like other former countries of the British Empire (Canada, etc), but has cut nearly all ties with the 'mother country'. I took this informatio..."

Okay, thanks, this helps. I imagine you still have some cultural ties to Britain like the U.S. has.

Some, we both play cricket and rugby union if you call that culture! We like to beat each other in sports and there is always a lot of stirring going on between the two countries but many Australians still travel to Britain to visit London, its normally the first port of call for many travelling Australians so England still has some attraction in our psyche.

I hope that in the discussion of british naval power someone has mentioned Robert Massie's two works on the rise and use of the dreadnought battleships and their effects on the balance of naval power leading up to WWI

As for NAM Rodgers I cannot recommend his work highly enough, his linking of naval development with social, political and technological changes is masterful

Hi Greg,

I'm pretty sure that Robert Massie's two magisterial books have been mentioned in the World War One thread but thanks for posting them here as well as they are great books and I'd hate to think people may have missed a reference to them.

and by Robert K. Massie

Thank you Aussie Rick for helping out Greg with the citation.

To Aussie Rick thanks, this may or may not be the place to mention this book but I just finished Cataclysm by Stevenson. It is a very in depth history of the First World War, and soem could find it a good companion book to Keegan. It is extremely complex and detailed in the political, economic and technological factors that affected the war and the eventual peace. It has taken some months to slog through it but in the end it was very illuminating as to why it followed the bloody path that it did. Cataclysm: The First World War as Political Tragedy

Hi Greg,

Thanks for the information on "Cataclysm: The First World War As Political Tragedy". I will move your post over to the World War One thread so people interested in WW1 will get to read about it. When mentioning a book/author if there is a bookcover you can use please do so and don't forget to add the author as this allows other people to use the hyperlink to check out the author's other titles, etc. (it took me a while to get used to this as well!)

I have placed a link to the WW1 thread so you can check out some of the books and discussions there that may interest you.

by David Stevenson


The First World War

And there it is...thanks Aussie Rick.

Greg, if in doubt about the mechanics of adding citations, please look at the Help Desk folder.

I am going to place the following book in a number of theads as it fits numerous areas of history; "The War for all the Oceans".

by Roy Adkins
Publishers blurb:
The period 1798 to 1815 - the Napoleonic Wars - has just about everything that you could wish for in a book on naval history - large fleet actions such as the Battle of the Nile and Copenhagen; many duels between pairs or small groups of ships, such as the Shannon and Chesapeake; combined operations like the disastrous Walcheren expedition; and attempts to destroy enemy ships with new inventions like torpedoes and rockets. Most naval histories stop at Nelson, but this book shows that what came afterwards is just as fascinating. Naval history is not just about broadsides and bloodshed, but the lives and experiences of real people, and for the first time extensive eyewitness accounts vividly portray aspects of life other than actual battles, including shipwrecks, press-gangs, prostitutes, spies and prisoners-of-war. At various times during this 17-year period, the British Navy took on almost every other nation that had a rival fleet: the French, Spanish, Dutch, Danes and Americans. Shipping routes all over the world were guarded to ensure that trade with Britain was not interrupted, and as Napoleon lost his empire, the British Empire formed solid foundations - all because Britain came to control the oceans.

Reviews:
“A rollicking, patriotic account of the Napoleonic Wars.” - Dominic Sandbrook (Daily Telegraph)

“A drama of blazing ships and broadsides ... an enjoyable coda to
Trafalgar year'.” - John Crossland (Sunday Times)

“A gripping portrayal ... packed with dramatic incidents and
colourful personalities.” - Colin White (Observer)

“Very readable, this is a lively example of narrative history.” - Ludovic Hunter-Tilney (Financial Times)

“A compelling picture of the triumph and tragedies of the war
against Napoleon.” - Lloyd's List

“A fascinating, lively tour d'horizon of the Royal Navy and its
battles, its trials and tribulations.” - Navy News

“A first-class book, wide in scope and gripping in detail.” - Oxford Times

“A solid, readable account.” - Saul David (Sunday Telegraph)

“Compelling and comprehensive. “ - Colin Bradley (Western Morning News)

“A splendid account ... Numerous eye-witness accounts provide a
vivid impression.” - Kathy Chater (Ancestors)

I read this book last year while also reading NAM RodgersThe Command of the Ocean: A Naval History of Britain, 1649-1815. I found that this work complimented Rodgers very well and I can definately recommend it as an excellent piece of history

Hello Greg, remember our guidelines for citations: bookcover, author's photo if available and always author's link.

So your citation would look like:

by N.A.M. Rodger - no author's photo available

by Dudley Pope

Considered the greatest sea battle of the Empire's history, it made Admiral Lord Nelson a hero for the ages. A rollicking read for the lover of British sea power.

Another good book Jill!

by J.J. Colledge

If you are interested in the evolution of British sea power this reference book is the one for you. It contains information on any British warship from the 15th century to the present. Not for everyone.

Jill, great adds - thank you for starting to breathe some life back into the British History section.

You are more than welcome.

My copy of the third and final book in the trilogy; "Hearts of Oak" arrived today:


by Sam Willis

If your interested in the other books in the series:

and by Sam Willis

Here is a book that may interest readers of British seapower:


by Viscount Admiral Jellicoe of Scapa

Found this book today which may interest other readers who enjoy accounts of the British Empire and its naval power:


by Robert Holland
Description:
Robert Holland traces the remarkable experience of British mastery in the Mediterranean from the Battle of the Nile to El Alamein and the end of empire, exploring the unique and often explosive relationships that shaped the region's modern history. For nearly two hundred years the Mediterranean lay at the heart of British power overseas - what Winston Churchill called 'Britain's first battlefield'. Here many thousands of Britons spent their lives, their graves now scattered from Gibraltar to Corfu, from Malta to Cyprus. British mastery of the seaways and surrounding shores, symbolized by the possession of fortress colonies, attracted enemies and rivals but became part of the enduring fabric of many Mediterranean societies. Robert Holland's sweeping new book tells the story of an extraordinary experience combining the military imposition of British rule with a constant enthusiasm for Mediterranean life enduring today, and which has left many legacies in administration, culture, language, law and architecture. From Nelson's great victories against the French to El Alamein and the Malta convoys of the Second World War, the Mediterranean shaped Britain's own fate as much as Britain shaped the future of the Mediterranean. "Blue-Water Empire" evokes the conflicts and frequent disillusionment between the British and local societies caught up in often dramatic events, but also their mutual intimacy, hopefulness and resilience under pressure. Above all, it charts the British experience of the Mediterranean, and the Mediterranean experience of the British, in the age of empire.

Reviews:
"Robert Holland's masterly history of the Mediterranean is a pleasure to read. Blue-Water Empire shows how Britain's mastery of the Middle Sea shaped the modern world, whilst reminding us how profoundly the Mediterranean has influenced the British." - Simon Ball (Author Of The Bitter Sea: The Struggle For Mastery In The Mediterranean, 1935-1949)

"[A] rich and readable account of the British in the Middle Sea ... As Holland's learned, lucid and enjoyable work makes clear, many British politicians saw the Mediterranean as the pre-eminent global strategic arena, representing the key to victory in Europe and Asia." - Dominic Sandbrook Sunday Times

OK, AR. I think I saw this book somewhere and it does look interesting. I did not add it to my TBR list but I will now. Thanks again.

My pleasure Jill, I just ordered a copy myself :)

In 1809, the Indian Ocean was the final battleground for the Royal navy and the French fleet during the Napoleonic era. At stake was Britain's commercial lifeline to India and its strategic capacity to wage war in Europe. In one fatal season, the French wreaked havoc on British shipping and nearly overthrew their dominion of the seas, while storms imperiled both navies. In this book the author portrays the ordeal of the crews and captains of the British East India Company whose zeal and ambition was such that they would rather die than capitulate.



by Stephen Taylor

An interesting aside to the overall picture of British seapower......their navy's involvement in America's War Between The States.


British Ships in the Confederate Navy

by Joseph McKenna

Synopsis

During the American Civil War, British-crewed warships harassed Union merchantmen, sinking a total value of over $15,000,000 in ships and cargo. Considered pirates by the federal government, these ships and crew were at the center of a largely unknown but fascinating struggle between Commander James Dunwoody of the Confederate Navy, U.S. Ambassador Charles Francis Adams, and Consul Thomas H. Dudley. This history of British assistance to the Confederate Navy covers that story in full and provides a close look at the British seamen who manned warships and blockade runners.

This book which gives some insight into the German Admiral's actions to sink the High Seas Fleet at Scapa Flow.

The Grand Scuttle: The Sinking of the German Fleet at Scapa Flow

by Dan Van Der Vat

Synopsis
On June 21, 1919, the Scottish anchorage at Scapa Flow witnessed one of the most dramatic events in naval history. The German High Seas Fleet had sailed into British waters under the terms of the treaty ending World War I. Possibly misled by British newspaper reports, the German admiral in command decided to scuttle the fleet rather than let it fall into British hands. Although technically in British custody, the German officers developed an extraordinary plan to simultaneously sink the entire fleet. Before the British could intervene, sixteen capital ships and numerous smaller ones went to the bottom; the operation resulting in the last casualties and the last prisoners of World War I.

The sinking of the Bismarck was been memorialized on film and has taken its place in British naval history......and who tells a better tale of the sea than C.S. Forester!!

Sink the Bismarck

by C.S. Forester

Synopsis

In 1941, Hitler's deadly Bismarck, the fastest battleship afloat, broke out into the Atlantic. Its mission: to cut the lifeline of British shipping and win the war with one mighty blow. How the Royal Navy tried to meet this threat and its desperate attempt to bring the giant Bismarck to bay is the story C. S. Forester tells with mounting excitement and suspense.

I just finished this book and I highly recommend it.

The Royal Oak Disaster

The Royal Oak Disaster by Gerald S. Snyder (no photos available)

Synopsis

This is the history of the sinking of the Royal Oak in the Scapa Flow by U-47. The German U-boat penetrated the supposedly impregnable naval base in the Orkney Islands of Scotland and the raid earned grudging admiration from Churchill as "a remarkable exploit of professional skill and daring". The Commander Gunther Prien was hailed as a hero in Nazi Germany and the English were stunned by the audacity of the attack. The author uses information that was previously hidden from the public by the British Official Secrets Act to piece together the full story, as well as interviews with survivors from both the Royal Oak and U-47. It is an amazing story.

They both sound like excellent books Jill, thanks for the information on both titles.

Ta', AR.....I think you would really like the second one.(although the first one is also quite good) It is very well done and is unbiased. Prien gets the credit he deserves for that bold raid on Scapa Flow.

This little book, which I just finished, follows in detail the search and destruction of the pride of the German fleet.

The Bismarck Episode

by Russell Grenfell

Synopsis
The British Navy’s sinking of a notorious symbol of Nazi Germany, the battleship Bismarck, in May 1941 ranks as one of the most significant victories of the Second World War. It was imperative that Britain find and destroy the Bismarck, a true threat to Britain’s ocean lifeline, before it could escape into the Atlantic. In The Bismarck Episode a veteran naval writer tells the intense and dramatic story of how the battleship was discovered, pursued, and ultimately destroyed.

I enjoyed this book very much.....it concentrates on the British Grand Fleet but also has some interesting information about Germany's U Boats.

The Great War at Sea

The Great War at Sea: History of Naval Action, 1914-18 by Adolph A. Hoehling (no images available)

Synopsis
A very well done history about the battles between the Grand Fleet of Britain and the High Seas Fleet of Imperial Germany during WWI. The book was written in 1965 and the author had interviews with and letters from those still surviving who fought these sea battles, which adds color and realism to the narrative. The opportunities missed and bad decisions on both sides illustrate how the outcome of WWI could have been very different. Germany gave short shrift to the kriegsmarine and believed that the war could be won on land. History shows us that this method only led to useless slaughter and whittled the German Army down to an ineffective fighting force. The proper use of U-boats and dreadnoughts might have changed history.