Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion

Mati wrote: "So I have a question to keep things going.

What do you do when you realize you have a plot flaw in your book? Do you immediately drop everything to sort it out? Outline? Organize coffee with a fr..."

I usually stop and think for a few minutes first. If I have an outline, I refer to it. If I don't have an outline, I consider whether or not I need to make one. I try to imagine just how difficult it will be to fix. If it's going to be a hard one, I take a break and do something else for twenty minutes, and then I come back and get to work fixing the problem. These kinds of problems are not uncommon for me.

Fix it right away. Though I can usually anticipate such problems they can happen when my character goes somewhere I didn't plan.

Personally, I don't see how anyone can keep going, it just gets you in deeper and deeper.

Nice thing about writing: you can always go back and change anything!

Michael wrote: "Stan wrote: "I do my best thinking at night, waiting to fall asleep. My characters really talk to me then."

I can relate to that, but I lay in bed in the morning thinking about my characters."

I usually get my ideas in the shower of all places. Don't know why but my best points come to me there.

Jacqueline wrote: "Rebecca wrote: "First line of my new novel, Death By Ice Cream, due out in late March:

“Curse it, Kitty, do something about that woman!”"

Love it!"

Thanks!

Ed wrote: "Fix it right away. Though I can usually anticipate such problems they can happen when my character goes somewhere I didn't plan.

Personally, I don't see how anyone can keep going, it just gets you..."

Being able to edit is in some ways the best thing about writing. I mean, if only I could go back and change what I said in real life!

There are writers who are organizational. These are the people who outline the entire book, maybe break it down chapter by chapter or even scene by scene. They might make cast lists with descriptions, or do piles of worldbuilding, before ever setting pen to paper.

For people like these a new thought probably involves halting and kicking the outline around some.

At the other pole are the purely intuitive writers, who just begin, and write until it's done. No plan, no outline, no character list, no nothing -- naked, into the creative vortex! The great Diana Wynne Jones was one of these. (I was talking to her American editor, who said that she had learned to never ask "How's the book going?" because then the entire process would halt.)

And so am I. I always have new ideas about the thing. Sometimes I stop and go back, and sometimes I just make a note to fix it later, and hurry on ahead. It depends on how serious the renovation is. Once I wrote 200 pp on a novel, and then, suddenly, a character walked in and announced, "I am the hero. This is page one." All my arguments (you are too late! What am I going to do with the previous 200 pages?) were of no avail. It was page one, and he took over the entire novel.

Brenda wrote: "suddenly, a character walked in and announced, "I am the hero. This is page one.""

I actually had something like that happen once! I usually let my story work itself out, I've never been the outline sort, and somewhere along the way one of my minor characters turned into a major player. So I had to go back and rework him into the entire story because he demanded to be there.

I think that was one of the changes I waited out a little bit though. I knew he needed to appear earlier, but figuring out when and where waited until the rest of the story worked itself out so I knew WHY he was there.

Mati wrote: "What do you do when you realize you have a plot flaw in your book?"

I fix it right away. It's hard to tell at first blush what the consequences of the plot flaw will be. The fix may have more ramifications that just that one plot hole. Better to kill that sucker dead right now than have to deal with a bigger mess 30,000 words from now.

I've had characters like the one Brenda described. They show up and take over. It's like Six Characters in Search of An Author (Pirandello) is real.

My first line, first: If you know anything about vampires – or think you do, at least – you’ve probably got a plan for what to do when you meet one.

Second:

Mati wrote:
What do you do when you realize you have a plot flaw in your book? ..."

If I have a plot flaw, it usually stops me cold. I may faf around trying to ignore the problem, but ultimately, I have to go back and fix it, now. I'm not one of those writers who can do things out of order, so I have to make a few attempts at writing the next scene before I find the right one and can move on.

Henry wrote: "I keep my stories in my head until they are ready to come out. No outline, no pointers - just the natural flow. It always starts with a catalyst. Once I have that, I play with the scenarios until the story sucks me in. From then on, I let it live in my head while I listen. At night, I write it down, then spend the next day 'observing' where it goes next, and so on, and so on...."

My writing process is pretty similar, although I admit that I have a file called 'Ideas for [novel]' where I jot down inspirations. I work out my novels in my head.

I'm the author of The Secret Lives of People - Real Diary Excerpts from Modern Day America. I also manage book projects for people who don't have time to publish their own book, and do book publishing consulting/workshops to teach people how to publish and market their book for FREE. Yes, I spent $2000+ getting my book published, but I help other authors avoid my costly mistakes. I give discounts on my checklist & video tutorial to people who ask nicely too. :)

I have a few dozen notebooks kicking around the flat, in which I write fragments and scraps and things, sometimes full stories, before typing them up later. My current favourite is a leather-bound notebook I bought in Sorrento a few years ago, I had a particularly productive evening in the pub towards the end of last year and filled it with a few thousand words of zombie action.

Where and when is my best thinking time?

When I first awake I sit up in bed to start my meditation and this is when the ideas flood in. I keep a notebook by the bedside to jot them down.

I also find ideas coming to me as I'm falling asleep - and I know for sure that if I don't switch on the light and write them down they will be gone for good. :(

I've been thinking about this for a while, so here goes.

Do you ever have a problem separating yourselves from your characters?

What I mean by that is, I've read some books where I feel like the author has poured to much of his self / herself into their characters. The character sounds a little to much like the author is talking about their personal life. Which is fine if its a memoir or autobiography, but in fiction sometimes it seems a little bit too personal.

Heinlein is famous for this: all Heinlein heroes sound alike because they sound like him.

If your protagonist is very different from you then it is easier to avoid this. A male, an alien, a horse, something like that. I realize that's why my heroes are frequently guys. Gives me all the fun of looking for guy words or male ways of thinking.

Jo Ann ☃ wrote: "I've been thinking about this for a while, so here goes.

Do you ever have a problem separating yourselves from your characters?

What I mean by that is, I've read some books where I feel like the ..."

I think it's inevitable that an author draws on their own experiences for their books. Even when we read some research, it becomes part of our experience not that we've lived what we read of course, but that it was important enough for us to remember and then write about to become part of our overall mental store. It doesn't even have to come from formal research, but a story someone told you or a line in a film, the writer can take them and run with them. I have riffed several short stories just from a single word or conjunction of words I've come across in a novel by another writer.

Having said that, the writer has to work their material so that it rises from the personal & subjective (where readers may not have the context or access to all the references the writer takes for granted in their own life) and make it speak more universally to the readership. That is the art of writing.

I guess that at some level all our characters are ourselves. That said, I see many writers that tend to work out internal issues as sort of a catharsis.

I don't think I'm very comfortable with this sort of writing either as I don't always want to share that kind of journey with someone. And, I feel such writing usually lacks the 'universals' of literature that can keep me from connecting with those kind of characters.

Do I ever have a problem separating myself from my characters?

Not really.

In my latest book the MC is a sexy alpha male - a fantasy figure I created for myself. I then became jealous of the female character who stole his heart. (Perhaps she was the female character I would *like* to be LOL)

I would think it borders on the impossible for an author not to base characters on his/her own experiences.

I had a discussion in another group about the flip side of this: Can a sighted person write about blindness? Can a virgin write about sex? Can a straight author write about gays?

If an author doesn't know his subject it usually comes off pretty lame--especially to the reader that has experienced these things.

Jan wrote: "Do I ever have a problem separating myself from my characters?

Not really.

In my latest book the MC is a sexy alpha male - a fantasy figure I created for myself. I then became jealous of the fema..."

If you're fancying your characters then perhaps there isn't all that much separation from them after all! :-)

A writer cannot in the strictest sense write outside of themselves, since they can only create stuff from inside their own heads, therefore it has to be in there to begin with. However, this is not the same as only writing what they have directly experienced as I mentioned above. We make all sort of material our own even if we have never lived it ourselves.

To take it to the reduction ad absurdum, can men write women and vice versa? Of course they can, or the good ones can anyway

Okay, so let's take it to take it to the reduction ad absurdum - can a man truly write about the intimate experiences and thoughts of a woman - or just what we'd imagine or fanaticize we'd like her to be?

I'll leave that up to the multitude of females here on Goodreads...

Myself, I base all my female characters on women I've known intimately and so to an extent some of my personality and experience is pressed upon those characters because I have them in my head.

Ed, for your question of whether a sighted person can write about blindness: I recently read Reprobate: A Katla Novel, and while there are parts of the book that I had reservations about, I found the blind man portrayed in a very believable way. When the book "shifts" to his perspective (it's always 3rd-person, but we no longer get visual cues in his sections), I feel the book come alive with sound and touch sensations. Oh, and I can confirm the author is not blind, haha. Though neither am I, come to think of it, so how can I be a fair judge?

Do I have a problem separating myself from my characters? Not particularly, because I have a wide cast of characters to reflect the diversity of average people. Certain characteristics of my personality appear in everyone, just as I might find something in common with anyone I talk to on the street. I think that if an author tries to write outside of their sphere of knowledge, though, the writing can quickly become cheap and flimsy. I'm not a physicist, so if I'm going to write a sci-fi novel with gravity fields and faster-than-light drives, I better do a ton of research to come across as passably knowledgeable.

Besides, who wants characters just like themselves? I'd get fed up with myself; my world would be full of young men who think they're more clever than they really are. And there are just too many things I couldn't include based only on my experiences, because I'm not an alcoholic, nor a drug lord, nor a homicide detective, nor a wealthy land owner, nor a mercenary, nor do I have special powers, nor...you get the picture. The world is too big and fascinating to be described through only my eyes.

Thomas wrote: "Ed, for your question of whether a sighted person can write about blindness: I recently read Reprobate: A Katla Novel, and while there are parts of the book that I had reservations ..."

Well put Thomas!

Steven wrote: "I guess that at some level all our characters are ourselves. That said, I see many writers that tend to work out internal issues as sort of a catharsis.

I don't think I'm very comfortable with thi..."

It kind of makes me a little uncomfortable as well, because when the author injects too much of their selves into their characters, I feel like we have crossed the line from just a story, and now were entering into the author's, as you said internal issues. I'm not sure if I want to know in an off-handed way all about your past alcoholic, sexual, or social problems. Sorry I read much better then I write, so I'm not trying to be rude.

Can you write about a character who has opposing principles to your own?

To a certain extent I can. But I did give up on a short story about neighbours whose disputes escalated to harming their neighbour's pets. I couldn't write about it without upsetting myself and eventually gave up.

Jo Ann ☃ wrote: "Steven wrote: "I guess that at some level all our characters are ourselves. That said, I see many writers that tend to work out internal issues as sort of a catharsis.

I don't think I'm very comfo..."

Philip Roth made a career writing about the sexual hang ups of a Jewish male. But he did interject these with great works such as American Pastoral & The Plot Against America

Its just that some authors have a way of weaving parts of their lives/personalities into their stories so naturally, and almost quietly you don't realize it. Then others are just so glaringly obvious that the story has become more about themselves. Anyway just my humble thoughts. Good day for reading were snowbound here again. :)

Jo Ann ☃ wrote: "I've been thinking about this for a while, so here goes.

Do you ever have a problem separating yourselves from your characters?
"

This used to be difficult for me, but I spent a lot of time doing literature role plays and it really stretches you to be someone else. You also have other players there to help sort out whether it's believable or not. You have to have a certain amount of empathy at times to accomplish writing outside of 'you'. While I think the best writing can be from those personal experiences, there are ways to create characters who aren't you. Research, reading other books, etc.

I think some of the best challenges I've had as a writer are when my character and I are vastly different. The writing may not come as naturally, but I spent more time getting into their head and getting to know them.

I must confess that I used some of my own experiences in my humorous novel about immigrants, so I think there was a bit of me in the main female character. I also stole a few experiences from immigrant friends.

I've written some books from the viewpoint of a female. But then I know a lot of females. Some things do seem ridiculous. I watched an episode of Roswell recently in which a young man hastily turned his back when a young woman started to disrobe in front of him. Not going to happen.

I don't have a problem separating myself from my characters. Sure, some of my understanding of how the world works appears in the way my character might think. I don't write characters that are based on me, though, or even directly on real people I know. I put them in situations I either can't or hopefully won't ever go through. So nope, no problems here. :)

So I have alines, assassins, gays, straight, male, female, disabled, super-powered, I am in all of them and in none of them - none of them are me but they are in my head. They also have characteristics stolen form every person I have met or just seen on TV or read in a book. tiny characteristics seep through. My friends have asked if a character is based on them I say yes and no

Jan wrote: "Can you write about a character who has opposing principles to your own?..."

Depends on the principle and how passionate I am about it. I can't do characters that try to save everyone no matter what they've done. Those types of characters irritate me. If I try writing one, I'd end up disliking them and that may show in my story. If that person is supposed to be villain, then it doesn't matter if they have principles opposite mine. They're supposed to be unlikable.

Do I have problems separating myself from my characters? Not really. I put my characters through so much stuff that I don't want to be them. I do put parts of myself into my characters. Some trait I have, I usually make it a much bigger part of my characters. But, they aren't me. I don't base characters off of people I know.

I enjoy writing about men because they are Other. Fascinating, like aliens. How to plummet how they think? I work hard at it.

Stan wrote: "I've written some books from the viewpoint of a female. But then I know a lot of females. Some things do seem ridiculous. I watched an episode of Roswell recently in which a young man hastily tu..."

lol! Long ago a male friend and I spent a long weekend backpacking, then stopped at a swimming hole to clean up so we could get a decent meal in town before driving home. He explained to me later his dilemma: that he thought it might be rude to look, but that I might be offended if he didn't!

Contemplating the opposite sex is how I access the Alien. I used to get my husband to read ms with the specific brief to tag places where the guy did not sound like a guy, but now I think I have a handle on it.

Oooh, I'd like to participate. Anyone got any questions for me? ;)

Nenia wrote: "Oooh, I'd like to participate. Anyone got any questions for me? ;)"

Just jump in and answer any question that's floating around out there!

Mati wrote: "So I have a question to keep things going.

What do you do when you realize you have a plot flaw in your book? Do you immediately drop everything to sort it out? Outline? Organize coffee with a fr..."

I usually have an idea of where a chapter is going while I am on it, but if something happens that I didn't plan I will see how it can be worked into the following chapters. I definitely write some notes down first, every and all possibilities that can happen because of it.

You can imagine my reaction when I realized that one of my characters was in two different places at the same time. Hmmm...should I give him a split personality?

I typically work up a time line on an Excel worksheet to keep track of dates and characters. Otherwise when you get deep into a story you can't remember how many days elapsed between events. It also helps ensure characters are not in the two different places at the same time.

Yeah, I made and keep an 1860 daytimer.

I haven't lost track of a character, but in my early draft I did fumble a horse once.

Ed wrote: "I typically work up a time line on an Excel worksheet to keep track of dates and characters. Otherwise when you get deep into a story you can't remember how many days elapsed between events. It als..."

In draft stages I often sub-head chapters with the time and day of the contents, just to make sure I don't lose any days. This also makes it easier to be sure to include things like weekends :)

Rebecca wrote: "Ed wrote: "I typically work up a time line on an Excel worksheet to keep track of dates and characters. Otherwise when you get deep into a story you can't remember how many days elapsed between eve..."

That's a good idea

For the mysteries I write, a timeline is critical because I have to keep track of who knew what when. I don't lose track of characters, though. Before writing I do a psychological profile of the characters so I understand them and know why they think as they do.

Regina wrote: "Yeah, I made and keep an 1860 daytimer.

I haven't lost track of a character, but in my early draft I did fumble a horse once."

My favorite Goodreads post of all time. :)

I was going to say, is that legal in your state?
I have had good luck with a large whiteboard. Time lines can be drawn, plots diagrammed and connected with swoopy lines.

Brenda wrote: "I was going to say, is that legal in your state?
I have had good luck with a large whiteboard. Time lines can be drawn, plots diagrammed and connected with swoopy lines."

I only wish there were room in my office for one!