Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion

Jo Ann ☃ wrote: "Do you ever have a problem separating yourselves from your characters?"

Not at all. I'm neither a freelance assassin nor a blind jazz musician nor a Rastafarian nor a heroin addict nor...

:)

Nenia wrote: "Oooh, I'd like to participate. Anyone got any questions for me? ;)"

Here is a question for you, Nenia. If there was one question about your characters that you did not want anyone to ask, what would it be?

I promise I won't ask the question. ('course, I can't promise that no one else will!)

Martyn V. wrote: "Jo Ann ☃ wrote: "Do you ever have a problem separating yourselves from your characters?"

Not at all. I'm neither a freelance assassin nor a blind jazz musician nor a Rastafarian nor a heroin addic..."

So, might you be a government assassin, deaf jazz musician, Christian cocaine addict then?

Thomas wrote: "Ed, for your question of whether a sighted person can write about blindness: I recently read Reprobate: A Katla Novel, and while there are parts of the book that I had reservations about, I found the blind man portrayed in a very believable way. When the book "shifts" to his perspective (it's always 3rd-person, but we no longer get visual cues in his sections), I feel the book come alive with sound and touch sensations. Oh, and I can confirm the author is not blind, haha. Though neither am I, come to think of it, so how can I be a fair judge?"

Many readers found my blind character believable, but--like Thomas--they weren't blind themselves. So that's why I was honored by this review from a visually impaired academic who specializes in media portrayals of blindness and this review from a blind reader who converted my epub to mp3 to 'read' the book.

I also have received private feedback from paraplegics about a double above the knee amputee in my books and the way he handles his wheelchair.

To me, it's not different from writing about a self-medicating heroin-addicted Chinese sniper.

:)

Gregor wrote: "So, might you be a government assassin, deaf jazz musician, Christian cocaine addict then?"

I actually haven't killed anyone. At least, I don't think he died. I'm not sure if that's all that preferable, though. There are worse things than dying.

Jan wrote: "Can you write about a character who has opposing principles to your own?"

I frequently write dialogue where two characters argue opposing principles, morals and/or ethics. I think it's the mark of a good writer if they can put themselves in the skin of someone totally unlike themselves and argue their points convincingly.

For instance, many writers of action/adventure novels are not exactly daredevil risk-takers themselves. And David Morrell, the creator of John Rambo, is a professor, not a disgruntled Vietnam vet. And I'm pretty sure Elmore Leonard wasn't as twisted as his criminal characters...

The human condition is to think of ourselves as unique individuals. Psychology and physiology for that matter demonstrates that we are mostly similar on the most important criteria- motivation, reactions, even moral beliefs. There are variations but these preferences are usually shared by others too- it's doubtful anyone could react in a way that no one has ever reacted. When you spend time with different cultures and subcultures you start to recognize the vast similarities. The real differences are in how we rationalize or justify the decisions and choices. A writer needs to make the actions make sense for their character. If it adds up the reader accepts it- if it doesn't the reader recognizes it. The real struggle is accepting that we may all look different or dress different or live in different places- but mostly we all have pretty similar dream, fears, desires, and broad goals.

Hmm. There are a couple questions that one must never ask my hero. How many people he has murdered is one to sedulously avoid. The other one is, what happened to him when he was in jail. Both these questions give him great psychological difficulty.

I have readers suggest my characters are actually me on a regular basis. I'm not sure why as there are only elements of my character in either and most of my readers don't know me very well, as I'm a recluse.

I always find that vaguely insulting. What, you think my imagination is that feeble?

John Steinbeck always used people he knew as the basis for his characters- so even if that's what an author does he or she is in excellent company

I have a question. If you had to choose between a book with Good Characters or a book with a Good Story Line, which would it be?

It should not be possible to split the two, any more than you could divide your right hand from your left. They are different, yes -- but they work in close concert. Character informs plot, and the plot is tailored to fit the characters.

If the characters are good enough, I will enjoy them doing anything, or nothing.

As for writing different types of characters that are allegedly NOT anything like me...alls I'll say here is that sometimes it scares me how easily I can slip into the character of my villains, which include (but are not limited to) a violent redneck, a sociopathic femme fatale, and a sadistic serial arsonist/murderer. I write this stuff and then sit back and think "what in the hell is wrong with me??"

Regina wrote: "If the characters are good enough, I will enjoy them doing anything, or nothing.

As for writing different types of characters that are allegedly NOT anything like me...alls I'll say here is that s..."
Isn't that the key, Regina? It's that ability to walk in someone else's shoes; not see how someone feels, but feel it, too, even if it's foreign to your nature, and then, of course, putting those feelings or sensual (as in the 5 senses)impressions on the page in a way the reader will feel it, too.

How do you find your characters? Do they show up full blown or do they have histories? Do you design a plot for them or do you have a plot they must fit into?

Regina wrote: As for writing different types of characters that are allegedly NOT anything like me...alls I'll say here is that sometimes it scares me how easily I can slip into the character of my villains, which include (but are not limited to) a violent redneck, a sociopathic femme fatale, and a sadistic serial arsonist/murderer. I write this stuff and then sit back and think "what in the hell is wrong with me??"

I've always found it much easier to write about evil than good, from characters to situations. Maybe it's a reflection of what makes the deepest impression on us.

Jacqueline wrote: "Regina wrote: "If the characters are good enough, I will enjoy them doing anything, or nothing.

As for writing different types of characters that are allegedly NOT anything like me...alls I'll say..."

For the first time I am actually in a position to answer this. The two (plot vs character) are so close that it's hard to tell. But for this next book I borrowed an entire suite of characters ready-made. So I can tell you that it is the plot that drives the thing. You need the story, the car, and then the characters sit in the seat and drive.

You don't need a whole complete plot, and in fact it's a good idea to leave space for your characters to be, you know, characteristic. But you need at least a kickoff, a beginning, a starting conflict. One sentence would do: If the Bennett girls do not marry they will starve. If the Ring is not destroyed Sauron will rule the world.

Jacqueline wrote: "Regina wrote: "If the characters are good enough, I will enjoy them doing anything, or nothing.

As for writing different types of characters that are allegedly NOT anything like me...alls I'll say..."

Yes! Exactly. I am very sensual and indulgent in my writing because I am that way in real life. I notice things like the way the air feels and the light falls and the house creaking. I don't sit there and write out all that description, but my characters do feel it and react to it. And I write very deeply in my character's heads, so that's important. Real people notice and react to their environments.

Writing like this, point of view is as important as characters and plot.

As for characters, yes, they all have histories, baggage, quirks, etc. I minored in theatre, and one thing I really took to heart is the idea that "every character has a motive." It might be "I have to throw the One Ring into the flames of Mount Doom." Or it might be "If I don't get a cup of coffee, my head's going to explode." Or even "My head itches." These might not even be things that drive the scene. But they are things that make a character real.

When I need a character, I kind of lay down the most basic framework of what I need. Then I leave it for a couple days. My subconscious goes to work and pretty soon I get a knock on the door of my consciousness. And then I almost have mental interviews with the characters to find out who they are.

Pretty certain it's a form of madness. I've been writing these same characters so long they almost literally write themselves.

I really do think writing is 25% writing and 75% staring off into space.

There's not much point reading (or writing) a book with characters I don't like. And by "like" I mean enjoy. Clearly, I don't "like" my sadistic firebug or my bigoted redneck. And I'm not sure plot can be separated from characters. Not if it's a great story, anyways, because the personal foibles of the characters are what makes the plot go. They're not so much driving the car as POWERING the car.

Jarrod wrote: "I have a question. If you had to choose between a book with Good Characters or a book with a Good Story Line, which would it be?"

Many times I've gone to see a movie because it has an interesting storyline and left feeling robbed because the characters were poorly written and/or developed. So I would absolutely choose good characters, because then the storyline pretty much writes itself.

I think it is characters in conflict and how they will resove their issues is what keep most readers turning the pages.
Richard Brawer
www.silklegacy.com

Characters come first for me. I write romance, so the end is a given. (If there's no HEA, it's not a romance!) The fun is in getting there, the journey. To use Regina's car analogy, if I expect the reader to spend several hours riding in the car with me, my characters better make interesting travelling companions.
Main characters pop into my head and like annoying party guests, won't go away until I listen to their whole back story. By the time I write the first word of their continuing story, I know them better than I know my long-time husband, though like him, they can still surprise me.
The plot seems to evolve from whatever situation I begin the story with, but this is romance. How about other fiction genres such as mysteries or thrillers where (I assume) plotting and timelines would be more tightly controlled. I understand you still want engaging characters, but do you search for one who fits your plot or do you have a character in mind first.
Second books or series would then begin with an established character, but what about the first?

Hi Jacqueline,
I just tried my hand at a romance suspense novel. Here's the blurb: Love and faith are tested as Jason and Ariel are caught in a battle to expose smugglers selling weapons to terrorists.

Ariel is a Quaker and Jason is the head of the legal department of America's largetst weapons manufacturer. Ariel becomes directly involved in killings, kidnappings and chases to retrieve evidence of the smuggling from Jason. They cause her to question her faith and Jason has to convice her she has not abandoned her faith.

It has religion in it but that is not the focus of the novel. The point I am making is that how these characters resolve their differences is what makes this novel a page turner. It comes out this fall from Vinspire Publisher.

All my novels are like that where the characters actually are the story and the plot revolves around them instead of them revolving around the plot.

Richard Brawer
www.silklegacy.com

Richard wrote: "Hi Jacqueline,
I just tried my hand at a romance suspense novel. Here's the blurb: Love and faith are tested as Jason and Ariel are caught in a battle to expose smugglers selling weapons to terrori..."

Got it! Thanks. :)

I write sf and fantasy, unquestionably the freest of all the genres. (One of the nicest things you can say about an SF novel is, wow, nobody's done that before.)
All I can say is that plot and character are born very nearly at the same time, and you get nowhere without both, but before that is the Idea. The idea is the bit of the book you can get into one sentence. It's a sequel to GONE WITH THE WIND. It's about time-traveling rabbits. It's a combat between two magicians. It's about a Moon mission gone terribly wrong.
You need the idea first. Then the plot and characters in very close succession -- a story has to embody the idea, and the characters have to act it out.

Jarrod wrote: "I have a question. If you had to choose between a book with Good Characters or a book with a Good Story Line, which would it be?"

Good characters can make a trite story sublime.
Bad characters make a sublime story trite.

Martyn V. wrote: "Jarrod wrote: "I have a question. If you had to choose between a book with Good Characters or a book with a Good Story Line, which would it be?"

Good characters can make a trite story sublime.
Ba..."

Why would you ever have to choose between good characters or a good story line? Every story should have both.

Susan Bernhardt

I agree that the two are inseparable, but I have to admit that I have read some very good books where I remembered the plot, but didn’t remember the characters.

Rod

Jacqueline wrote: "Characters come first for me. I write romance, so the end is a given. (If there's no HEA, it's not a romance!) The fun is in getting there, the journey. To use Regina's car analogy, if I expect the..."

Generally, I have a broad premise first. In my case, "Adventure Romance story set at Pony Express station." I like pre-civil war American history. And I like good character stories. So this gives me an opportunity to come up with a fun, diverse group of characters.

So then I go, "Okay. I need to outfit my station with a crew. Based on what I know about who worked for the PE, what sorts of characters would work at my station?"

I don't think I consciously go out of my way to "build" particular characters. I start thinking about this long before I start writing, and it's almost as if I get an increasingly clear image of the characters as they form out of nothing. My subconsciousness does all the work. I "see" them. I might question why that particular character or other has any business being in this time and place. They can almost always give me a compelling reason.

Like I said, I'm sure I'm not entirely sane. I'm just glad the voices in my head are just telling me to write stories and nothing worse. :-DDDD

I suspect you know exactly what I mean. They DO show up like annoying party guests, and sometimes they refuse to shut up.

Regina wrote: "Generally, I have a broad premise first. In my case, "Adventure Romance story set at Pony Express station." I like pre-civil war American history. And I like good character stories. So this gives me an opportunity to come up with a fun, diverse group of characters."

I have a character who is an assassin. But it would be boring if nothing went wrong. So, in the first novel she encounters an unusual witness and breaks one of her rules by not killing him. In the second novel, some bad guys attempt a hostile takeover of her legitimate company, which holds all her ill-gotten gains, but the criminals don't know that the woman they try to pressure is a skilled assassin. And in the third novel she takes a job that was intended to draw her out into the open, but the target, who was supposed to survive and finger her, dies. So they attempt to arrest her for killing her target, but they can't make it stick. When she's set free, she still has several more contracts to fulfill, but now there are several intelligence agencies breathing down her neck.

Those are the basic premises, which can succeed with believable characters, or fail with unbelievable ones.

Yes, I think introducing conflict (even if it's as simple as my "I need some coffee" example) early on hooks readers. Make them care about the characters, and then make them curious about how the conflict will shake out, creates a nice hook.

My main character is a mousy little housekeeper. She has personal conflicts (I don't like that my brother's job is dangerous, I am shy and these are all new people, some of my new coworkers are scary, etc) and larger, plot conflicts (I inherited a piece of land I've never seen, there are violent people targeting my new co workers, there is a conflict between the Natives and the Army affecting our safety and jobs, etc.)

If you don't have some sort of conflict, you have no story. You have to give these awesome characters something to do.

I also like writing about men because I get so fed up with being told that female characters are 'autobiographic' Grrrrr

Regina wrote: "I suspect you know exactly what I mean. They DO show up like annoying party guests, and sometimes they refuse to shut up."

Are you suggesting there are people without the voices? LOL

Rosalind: a lot of people think female characters are all pretty much interchangeable. Doesn't it drive you nuts? "The Woman" is a character class. You get The Cowboy, The Robber, The Con Artist, The Bad Guy, and The Woman.

Never mind that The Woman can be any of those things.

I watched a movie last week that was patently terrible. I knew it was patently terrible going into it, so it was no great shock. In it, The Woman was a saloon girl that existed for no other reason than to 1. Writhe prettily in The Bad Guy's clutches and wait to get rescued, and 2. Be awarded to The Hero as a reward for his having saved the day. Because, you know, that's how life works. Save the day, get your favorite female as a prize.

The other Woman was an undead "whore" (not my words). She was actually a much better character.

Like I said, it was a patently terrible movie.

Let idiots think what idiots will. Keep writing your good characters...whatever their gender...because Lord knows we need them.

Rodney: I'm glad I'm in good company. :-DD

Brenda wrote: You don't need a whole complete plot, and in fact it's a good idea to leave space for your characters to be, you know, characteristic. But you need at least a kickoff, a beginning, a starting conflict. One sentence would do: If the Bennett girls do not marry they will starve. If the Ring is not destroyed Sauron will rule the world.

A good beginning for any novel is: something bad happens. And then your job as author is to work out how that bad thing affects people, who's going to put it right, and how they're going to do it.

"I'm just glad the voices in my head are telling me to write stories and nothing worse." I'm gonna frame that and hang it on my wall. Maybe do it as a needlepoint sampler.

Chris wrote: "Brenda wrote: You don't need a whole complete plot, and in fact it's a good idea to leave space for your characters to be, you know, characteristic. But you need at least a kickoff, a beginning, a ..."

I was going to ask, does it have to be a bad thing or just something that happens, but then I looked at my own stories and it's usually (but not always) something bad! lol A divorce, a lost job, a car wreck, nothing cataclysmic and nothing that has to do with the eventual plot conflict, but certainly something that starts the ball rolling, something that induces change.

Regina wrote: "Rosalind: a lot of people think female characters are all pretty much interchangeable. Doesn't it drive you nuts? "The Woman" is a character class. You get The Cowboy, The Robber, The Con Artist, T..."

I dislike the fact that 'The Assassin' is often a man, and often a total psychopathic antagonist. Which is why Katla is neither.

Rebecca wrote: "I'm just glad the voices in my head are telling me to write stories and nothing worse."

I do whatever the voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

Rod

Rodney wrote: "Rebecca wrote: "I'm just glad the voices in my head are telling me to write stories and nothing worse."

I do whatever the voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

Rod"
You're a wise man, Rod!

No, it doesn't have to be a bad thing. But it has to be a BIG thing. Finding out that you have run out of dental floss, no -- because it doesn't lead to much of anything except picking up more the next time you go shopping.

Being rescued from freezing to death on the Antarctic ice shelf because people from 200 years in the future are doing a proof-of-concept of a star drive (and, because of Einsteinian physics, if you can travel through time you can travel faster than light), now that's a kick-off that'll take you places.

Although it doesn't have to be BIG big like that. It could be just big for the character; the traditional meeting-the-person-you love would do fine.

Brenda, I am now feeling a terrific urge to write a story in which it all follows from the fact that the protagonist has run out of dental floss. . .

Wait! As he enters the all night drugstore to replenish his supply, a robbery is in progress, but these are no ordinary thieves....
You could start with dental floss. lol

Brenda wrote: "No, it doesn't have to be a bad thing. But it has to be a BIG thing. Finding out that you have run out of dental floss, no -- because it doesn't lead to much of anything except picking up more the ..."

I'm working on a stand-alone, which starts with an interlude of the protagonist gutshot in an alley and that interlude ends with:

Two in the morning.

Five hours till dawn.

A whole night to die in.

And muse over the events that got me in this predicament.

If only I hadn’t picked the pocket of the fat woman…

Rebecca wrote: Brenda, I am now feeling a terrific urge to write a story in which it all follows from the fact that the protagonist has run out of dental floss. . .

Damn, I wanted to do that.:)

Brenda wrote: No, it doesn't have to be a bad thing. But it has to be a BIG thing.

True, it doesn't have to be a bad thing, but I think that for most readers, a bad thing is more interesting than a good thing. Or is that just me? All of my novels start with a bad thing happening, which strangely I hadn't consciously noticed until I contributed to this thread.

It needn't be a big thing in a humorous novel (see dental floss), but it had better be in a serious one, or we're all going to feel cheated.

It also could be that a bad thing happened in the past, and now something has happened that reanimates it or brings it to our attention. Isildur lost the ring, and now Sauron has realised that a hobbit has it; the White Witch conquered Narnia, and now four children go through a wardrobe into Narnia; Mr and Mrs Bennett had too many children, all of them girls (tough break), and now a rich man has moved into Netherfield. In the novel I'm currently reading, Some Kind Of Fairy Tale, the bad thing happened 20 years ago - a girl of fifteen disappeared - and now she's come back.

All good stories begin with a catalyst event - not necessarily cataclysmic event. Think Dickens, 'I was born I am told' versus 'Marley was dead.' Although mine do tend toward 'the bad thing happened, now what?'

I write mystery/suspense and I know where I'm going before I start. I plot out major events and some minor ones. I know who did it before I start writing.

I like reading books that have wit, interesting characters AND good plots. I like reading books with smart characters solving the crime, not some dummy walking around bumping into things and solving the crime by accident.

Since I like interesting characters and good plots, I write both. I'm working on my second novel now and I'm following the same pattern.

The idea for the first book came to me while dealing with CPS in a relative's case. I began thinking that some parents are probably angry enough to kill these people! So, a story that had been roaming around in my head was born. But, a parent didn't do it!

Leaving space in your story is a good plan, I think. I tend to plan everything out blow by blow, but sometimes you just see this fun scene and you have to go with it. As long as you don't take a huge detour, I think that sort of thing goes a long way to making your characters memorable and endearing.

Richard wrote: "I think it is characters in conflict and how they will resove their issues is what keep most readers turning the pages.
Richard Brawer
www.silklegacy.com"

I agree. There should be some level of crisis that causes conflict in each chapter. In my genre, I think there is also some degree of the reader wanting a comfort level with the characters that they get to know as well.

Susan Bernhardt

A good event can be a great catalyst in a story, you just have to remember to reverse the timing. Where you would normaly see a recovery, you would put a degradation and vice versa. I.E. a person finds a great deal of money, but it's not what it seams.

Rod

E.G. wrote: "All good stories begin with a catalyst event - not necessarily cataclysmic event. Think Dickens, 'I was born I am told' versus 'Marley was dead.' Although mine do tend toward 'the bad thing happ..."

Interesting you use the word stories rather than novels. I agree, if the primary aim is to tell a good story, then a catalyst event is important. But if you're not writing a genre novel, then either the voice or the linguistic/metaphorical world of the novel is the key thing to suggest in the opening pages.