Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion

I build the outline over the course of years then, when the project has reached critical mass, I write.

The last project I tried seat-of-pants was in the early 1990s. I got my characters up the proverbial tree, set fire to it, and realised I had no way to get them down again. It took until last year before I figured out how to get them down and I ended up re-writing the whole thing almost from scratch. One major character needed completely re-writing and another two needed significant revision: things that are much easier when you are not staring at 50,000 words.

I don't know if I needed another 20 years of craft or another 20 years of life experience, but the lesson is learned: I don't rush to write the whole story, but instead keep working on the outline over the course of months or years until I am confident I can finish the thing.

It'll be strange when it comes out in a few weeks. I really have been working on this book for decades. Or at least ignoring it for decades.

Doug wrote: "Hi, I'm Doug Oudin, author of 'Between Two Harbors, Reflections of a Catalina Island Harbormaster (a memoir), and 'Five Weeks to Jamaica', a novel.
Obviously, a memoir knows where it is going becau..."

One more thing, when writing my memoir, I had no idea how many words or typed pages it might take to create a book. I began typing, composing the story and describing the uniqueness of our island life. When I finished, I submitted the original manuscript for review and discovered that if printed as it was, the book would be over 750 pages! It was suggested I cut the manuscript in half. Painfully, because I liked most of the passages that I edited out, I cut the work to its final copy of 410 pages--a little long for a memoir--but I did not want to cut more. Looking back now, I realize that I could have probably done more cutting without compromising the story, but I'm happy with the result.

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The question:
Steven wrote: "ok I have some questions for any author or authors that want to answer it.
When starting a story, do you ever just start writing something not knowing where it's going to go?

The answer. I am absolutely a plotter for the most part but some deviation always works its way in. Everyone does a little something different and if you are having trouble putting down the first words, then maybe just starting writing and go with the flow works with you better. The first step is always the words!

Yes! all the time!
I rarely do any sort of an outline, it's all in my head and never on paper.
I know where the story starts and where it will end but I just sit down at the pc and the story comes to me as I write.

Colleen wrote: "The question:
Steven wrote: "ok I have some questions for any author or authors that want to answer it.
When starting a story, do you ever just start writing something not knowing where it's going ..."
All the time. I may not use the material, but I find, sometimes, by the very fact that I am writing, spurs my imagination.

I think, Steven, that the best way to proceed is whatever way works for you. There are as many methods as there are writers! If the words are getting put down on the page, then that's all that matters.

Anna wrote: "I think, Steven, that the best way to proceed is whatever way works for you. There are as many methods as there are writers! If the words are getting put down on the page, then that's all that matt..."

However, I wouldn't wait for the ideal time, or fret too much over the beginning. Just start the story. When you finished the story, you will know how it should begin, and you'll be ready to write that beginning.

Steven wrote: "ok I have some questions for any author or authors that want to answer it. When starting a story, do you ever just start writing something not knowing where it's going...?"

The kind of novels I write are nearly impossible to build on the fly -- I have multiple characters, usually in different places, doing different but related things, and all of them (or the surviving ones, at least) need to come together in one place at a particular time for the climax. There are just too many moving pieces. I usually have an extensive outline to make sure everything synchs.

I didn't do that for my WIP (for various reasons), and it drove me nuts. I eventually had to stop, outline the story, and work out the hole I'd dug for myself before I could continue. Never again will I try to shotgun a novel.

I'm like Lesley and Jack. The stories are in my head and need to get out. I start writing and the story comes. What's an outline:)

I usually have at least a half-formed idea in my (half-formed) brain before I start writing, but I rarely have any written form of outline.

I've tried a written outline a couple of times, but I become rigid and a slave to what I'd written. Having a mental outline seems much more fluid for me.

Lance wrote: "The kind of novels I write are nearly impossible to build on the fly -- I have multiple characters, usually in different places, doing different but related things, and all of them (or the surviving ones, at least) need to come together in one place at a particular time for the climax. There are just too many moving pieces. I usually have an extensive outline to make sure everything synchs."

Maybe nearly impossible, but I write my novels--which feature 3-5 storylines with their own cast of characters--without outlines. I usually know the direction I want to take and the possible ending, but in my latest work a new character introduced himself halfway through the book and changed the plot (for the better).

I'm praised for the intricate plots of my books, so I must be doing something right...

Any way you can do it and get it done is the right way. There is a spectrum, and it runs all the way from the outliners on one side to the pantsers on the other. Kipling assured us that there are nine-and-ninety ways of writing, and he was right.

Writing mysteries means I need to know that all the ends will tie up before I begin so I plan in detail before I start writing. Having said that, things still might change as I go along, when I might get different(hopefully, better) ideas of how the story will pan out. It's as though, however much I plan in advance, the actual act of writing is a part of my thought process. Then it's like a domino effect - change one thing and it impacts on everything else. So... I end up having to do loads of re-writes. Frustratingly, I don't seem to be able to write any other way!

Wendy wrote: "Writing mysteries means I need to know that all the ends will tie up before I begin so I plan in detail before I start writing. Having said that, things still might change as I go along, when I mig..."
Your way of writing sounds exactly like mine, Wendy: the story always ends up growing and changing and, yes, lots of rewrites. It makes it slow but I guess we get there in the end!

Nearly all writers rewrite; this is not unusual in any way. What is rare is the writer who writes, and it is perfect in the first draft. If somebody does this, you can bet that it is not her first, or even her tenth book. It is something you learn to do. (Harlan Ellison once famously write a short story while sitting in a department store window. It was not his first story.)

I am not a prolific writer. It took me 14 months to produce what I felt was a completed, polished manuscript and an additional 2 months, working with and learning from those assigned to help convert the manuscript into a commercially viable book. It was a very interesting and worthwhile experience.

Kathy wrote: "Wendy wrote: "Writing mysteries means I need to know that all the ends will tie up before I begin so I plan in detail before I start writing. Having said that, things still might change as I go alo..."
So true, Kathy. It's a case of gritting your teeth and being ready for the long journey!

Christine wrote: "My name is Christine Hayton. I am a published author - feel free to check me out. I've been a member for about 3 years, have read over 700 books, have 400 + followers and voice my own honest opinio..."

I think that basically we have radically different world views at work here. Most authors see reviews or ratings as feedback and (if positive) validation of our work. Often the feedback can be as simple as "I didn't like it". No one should be obliged to explain why they didn't like a book, any more than why they like a brand of beer, or hamburger. Sometimes it is simply a matter of taste.

Mark on the other hand sees reviews and ratings purely from a marketing perspective. Negative ratings hurt sales. In his mind negative reviews are less bad because they can be countered or argued against. What he is not seeing is that you can never "win" that kind of argument any more than you can "win" a discussion over the existence of God (or gods). You may be able to counter every point in the negative review, but that will not make the reviewer or his/her friends change their minds.

In the end, I think what he wants is a system of positive only reviews.

that makes good sense...thanks for your article. I usually receive kind reviews for my books on Amazon and only once received a semi-negative one. Naturally, this is the one that I remember most. The reader enjoyed the book but criticised the inadequate proof reading ... I checked and rechecked and could only find one error in the 75,000 word ms...which was 'again' rather than 'against'! However, the whole thing did make me think and work harder. Fair enough and agree that anyone should be free to make comment. What I think completely unreasonable is that Amazon allow reviews to be shown even if the book (or any item) has not been purchased. Reviewers only have to be regular Amazon buyers and may not have read the book at all...is this rational??? The answer is in the word RE-view! Kate
[book:Provence StarlightProvence Love LegacyProvence FlamePerfume of ProvenceDreams of TuscanyKate Fitzroy|8148695]

Christine wrote: "I think that basically we have radically different world views at work here. Most authors see reviews or ratings as feedback and (if positive) validation of our work...."
I agree, Christine -- responding to a negative review as if you can invalidate it is unrealistic (and a waste of time).
I also agree that there is no accounting for taste, but I do find it helpful when a reviewer is specific about what she didn't like, so that I can decide if I need to consider changes.

Steven wrote: "ok I have some questions for any author or authors that want to answer it.
When starting a story, do you ever just start writing something not knowing where it's going to go? Do you always know ho..."

When I start I know where I want to go, but often don't know how I will get there. Because I'm always thinking ahead, ofttimes I'll get a new idea well before I'm at the point of writing about it. sometimes the idea comes after and i'll have to go back either squeeze it in between what has already been written or re-write past scenes.

Steven wrote: "ok I have some questions for any author or authors that want to answer it. When starting a story, do you ever just start writing something not knowing where it's going to go? Do you always know ho..."

I am a plotter and usually have a detailed outline, timeline and character profiles in place before I start writing. However I also keep an "ideas and pre-writes" directory with the work, and write great scenes as they come to me, save them and then slip them in later. I can also add scenes when editing.

I strongly believe if you have a great idea or scene running in your head - write it up and save it (before its gone). There are no rules that say we have to write things in order.

J.D. wrote: "Steven wrote: "ok I have some questions for any author or authors that want to answer it.
When starting a story, do you ever just start writing something not knowing where it's going to go? Do you..."

This is exactly how I write too. Some of my favourite scenes or concepts were surprises to me, discovered as I was writing.

If writing a novel that includes several prominent characters, multi-level sub-plots, and is fairly long (350 pages or more), notes and at least a rough outline and time line are essential reference tools. Without them, individual personalities, event sequence and focus may easily become blurred or even erratic.

I do write notes as I go along. I find I frequently reference them.

I totally agree. Once I got a review and the reviewer was talking about characters that weren't even in my book. :(

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Lesley wrote: "Yes! all the time!
I rarely do any sort of an outline, it's all in my head and never on paper.
I know where the story starts and where it will end but I just sit down at the pc and the story comes ..."

**This

I didn't know the end of my first book. And I still don't know how my second book is going to finish.

I prefer to just write and let the story write itself. (I do like bullet points, for where that chapter is going, or ideas for story lines. They rarely get used though :-) )

Regards

Mike

I always know the beginning, a few plot points, and the ending when I first settle down to write. However, all of these usually alter along the journey.

Someone recently suggested to me that fantasy must be as close to the established 'fantasy norms' as possible, for risk of losing the suspension of belief. How much do my fellow fiction authors try to bear this in mind?

Tomas wrote: "Someone recently suggested to me that fantasy must be as close to the established 'fantasy norms' as possible, for risk of losing the suspension of disbelief. How much do my fellow fiction authors ..."

Well, if that was the case, then we wouldn't have LOTR!

Regards

Mike

Tomas wrote: "Someone recently suggested to me that fantasy must be as close to the established 'fantasy norms' as possible, for risk of losing the suspension of disbelief. How much do my fellow fiction authors ..."

The most vital element in any fantasy or SF novel is consistency. If the Dilithium crystal works one way in a scene, it should work the same way in every other scene. An author breaking his or her own world's rules is the biggest enemy of suspension of belief.

The opening line from my humorous novel
Conversations with Larry Xenomorph:

If you've never spent a quiet evening in a padded cell, you haven't missed much. It’s really quite boring.

I wrote my first novel and just published a month ago. It took me almost three years to write and rewrite, as well as all the other steps. Beta readers, critique partners, professional editors and so on. the book is 558 pages and I did not outline. I had a story in my head for a long time, and coming from an acting background, I developed the characters, well, while I daydreamed. When I finally decided to put it on paper, I knew the basic story, and the outcome, but how I would get there and all the details in between came to me as I wrote and brought the characters to life. As I wrote, I did keep track of dates and events to keep timelines straight. I also needed to be able to have something to look at quickly for reference. But a full outline i think would not have worked for me. and i find I am using the same method for the second book.

Love to answer any question...

Wade wrote: "Love to answer any question..."

Me as well

Do authors want to hear about the typos we find when reading ARC or released books?

I usually highlight the egregious or repeated errors in my kindle, but is it already too late if the book is out there?

I'd be willing to send them to an author, but don't want to seem picky. lol I did have one author, and one of my favorites, in fact, who gladly accepted them for the next edition.

Some people get annoyed by it, but I appreciate any opportunity to polish a spot I missed.

There are always going to be some typos in any book. It is good to point them out to the author if they are significant. I personally do not ever point them out as they take me into the arena of critiquing rather than enjoying the read. I remember textbooks from my Dental school days that I paid $250.00 for, (In the 1980's), and they had typos, not to mention a handful of entries that were patently erroneous. This was after large panels of so called brilliant minds reviewed and edited them. Typos can never ruin a good story nor good information. In converse a bad book or story that is void of any typos or mistakes in the text will still not be a good read.

I don't mind even a little bit. Its no big deal to change them in an e-book. I recall one review where I had some people wandering around following the sun to go west. It was wintertime and I had them walking more north than south until a reader pointed it out.
I've had readers call me out for artifacts where I've changed a phrase and didn't delete all of the old one, leaving a sentence that doesn't work. My view is, if they are calling out the errors, that means they are buying the book.

In some conversions to e-book formats, the conversion creates typos. I don't know how many books, including my own, that had rectangles with a question mark inside where a hyphen should be. That seems to have been resolved in the newer conversion software.

My editor and I fight all the time over the use of the Oxford comma in a list. She says no and I say they can take my comma when they pry it from my cold, dead hands.

Ken wrote: "I don't mind even a little bit. Its no big deal to change them inI say they can take my comma when they pry it from my cold, dead hands...."

Let's eat Grandma. I rest my case.

I have no problem if someone spotted a typo or something that didn't match up in the same section. We're human and things can get overlooked even with editing. I've experienced that before. So the answer is yes, no problem with a reader contacting me about issues in the book.

I think it's great to have an extra set of eyes finding errors in my book. I don't find it offensive one bit.
Although I've read it literally 100 times, and I had an editor read it multiple times as well, I still find errors. There comes a time when you've read your story so many times that it becomes impossible to notice everything.
When someone tells me of a mistake, I just note the changes and upload a new version for my readers. Ta-da! :)

Susan wrote: "I think it's great to have an extra set of eyes finding errors in my book. I don't find it offensive one bit.
Although I've read it literally 100 times, and I had an editor read it multiple times a..."

Know exactly what you mean Susan/CJ, it's always appreciated to have something pointed out as you go 'word blind' having read it so many times.

I let my publisher know of it.

I always let the author know. If they are indie they can fix it and if they are trad pub they can ask--but it's often not up to them if it can get fixed. If my editor and proofreader miss things and an alert reader finds those pesky thoughs for throughs and absent "a"s, I am very grateful. The editor can go "word blind," too. We tend to see what we expect to see, not what's really there.

Let's all read and write reviews pointing out the typos. If you haven't read "Trainspotting" before...bet you can't