Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion

"It begins as a stream that leaps laughing from the mountains and bounds down through the canyons, chuckling in wide rapids."

Teeth - The Epic Novel with Bite

Hi Julie,
ask your self, does your book say what you wanted to say in the way you wanted it to. If the answer is yes, then you have cracked it!
As for 'critics' only take notice of those who can tell you what is wrong, why and how to make it better. Even then it is still only their opinion.
Many critics are failed writers, to them my reply is 'you do it better then!'
Don't be afraid of honest comments from people who know what they are talking about, that is how to learn and become a better writer. My third book was published today, and I still regard myself as a beginner, getting better, yes, but still a great deal to learn. Hang in there girl! look forward to seeing you on the authors lists.
All the best, Paul Rix [oldgeezer:]

Julie, I was stoked about the upcoming release of my third book. Then I opened the newest book from Charlaine Harris and saw her backlist and ... wow. Blew me away.

Right there is my motivation. I want to have a backlist that long.

Don't let the self-esteem plague you. Make up your mind what your goal is, and go for it. Don't let the doubters get in your way; cut them out of your life.

And always, always. Follow your heart and tell YOUR story.

Hang in there. We all face the demons.

Yes, my book is exactly the book I want it to be.

I published it myself on Smashwords last March, although I'm not sure more than two people have read it since. I do have one nice review, from a website called "The Pagan and the Pen."

However, reading it aloud, I'm discovering errors right and left. (Almost all are comma/period substitution typos.) This is after repeated proofing. And I used to work as a proofreader! That does nothing good for my confidence...I was convinced it was finished.

One of the "other" things I do is to manage an art gallery. Each month I watch another artist pour their heart and soul out onto the floor and wait to see who will stomp on it. Most people are considerate, but the fear is still there. That's where I am right now. Waiting to see whether I'll be trampled.

Hi Julie,
Why should you be any different to the rest of us? I can't remember ever reading a book without a few typos, mainstream or indie. It is annoying and I have to say is an increasing happening, I have found 7 in my new book, all typos, mostly where I had hit the wrong key!! a typical result is 'do' instead of 'so', or vise versa. which of course is missed by the spell checker.
At least four people had checked it over, and I went through it countless time. The bad one I have just found is 'through' instead of 'throw'!!grrrrrh!
It happens, it shouldn't but it does, I suppose it is all to do with the pace of modern life, even when we think we are taking our time we are still in a hurry.
Oh you'll get trampled at some stage, we all do, the ego takes a beating but bounces back, you'll be fine, don't let it get to you. I'm off to a big book festival, 2 book signings this afternoon, so keep at it and good luck.
All the best Paul Rix [oldgeezer:]

Susan wrote: "Gary, I re-read it a few times. "I'm sensing an innate self-esteem issue with just giving us your first lines."

I understand (now) you were trying to be encouraging, but that's not how I read it t..."

I read it as saying that people should post more than the first line.

Thanks, Gary, for the clarification.

'Through' for 'throw?' Yeah, that's an ouch.

My novel sat in a drawer for 15 years, so I had to scan it when it came out. The scanner couldn't tell a comma from a period, and it seems these days neither can I. A friend spotted a couple 'arid' for 'and' errors. Same problem. But I'm finding many of them by reading my book aloud to a tape recorder, and, although I doubt it'll ever be perfect, it will be much better.

15 years? Yep. One rejection slip: 15 years in a drawer. Gotta resist that impulse. Get them out there any way I can before somebody tells me I can't.

Isn't it funny what fear can do to you? Fear of judgment, fear of failure, fear of people finding out that you really don't know what you're doing. It can be crippling, and for years I allowed it to do just that.

When my book went live I didn't sleep for days. I had my friends check the web, dreading that "you suck" review. Thinking it might help, I started to read the first official hard copy of Asteria, but after the first few chapters I grew nauseous, realizing that the grammatical mistakes that were missed were out there for the world to see. It wasn't until my best friend forced me to go onto Amazon and see that strangers actually liked it that I could breathe again.

Goodreads has given me the opportunity to communicate with authors going through the same thing. I realized that the people in the writing world aren't as pious and self-righteous as I had feared. They accepted me and for that I am grateful.

When I feel that niggling sense of panic, I remember that these are my characters. I know them in a way that no one else does, and I can tell their story in a way that no one else can.

Still, I have to admit, people with their MFA's scare the hell out of me, and I'm intimidated by anyone with "editor" following their name.

Steven,

I'd like to take a stab at answering your questions. I write with a coauthor. We write science fiction and it took us awhile to get into a groove writing together. It was better for us to have a general outline of the story and also some basics about a chapter. But nothing is written in stone for us. Sometimes I get a scene or chapter back and it was totally different from how I envisioned the chapter to be. That's the cool part because there's nothing more exciting to have a character or a scene take off and become much more than you originally planned for.

We keep a spreadsheet of our storyline, characters, conflicts etc because we are often writing 3 story lines in one book. They must all converge at the right point or otherwise there's lots of edits and rewrites that need to happen to get everything aligned again.

Elizabeth, I've got an MFA and I'm hardly scary. I promise.

Susan wrote: "Elizabeth, I've got an MFA and I'm hardly scary. I promise."

Yeah, but you write about shape shifters and so that just makes you cool! :-)

No, I write about a rock band named ShapeShifter. That makes me even cooler. *grin*

That's what I get for perusing and not slowing down to really read ... Now I'm intrigued!

This is the perfect time to be intrigued, Elizabeth. I'm about to put the novel out. Lots of people who read the stories are all over me for the novel. Come join the Trevolution!

Hi Folks,
just a quickie, before I hit the sack and 'die' for twelve hours or so.
I survived the journey back from Winchester, about 180 miles.
Had a terrific time, sold plenty of copies of 'The Day the Ravens Died'. Had a chat with Terry Pratchett, great guy. Hi-light was meeting Carrie King, the Author of Joni-Pip, she came about a hundred miles just to meet little old me, complete with a copy which she signed just to me, Carrie is one of the nicest people I have met, she's lovely. I am so flattered, I'm looking forward to reading her book, I've heard a lot of good things about it.
My next hurdle is to deal with the launch of my new book on the 11th July at the Frome festival, that is even further away, lots of orders for it already.
The moral of all this is go for it!! get out there and meet your customers [the readers:] they can't buy your book if they don't know it exists! Have confidence in your work and make the genre clear, I also make sure anyone buying it gets a complements slip so they can get in touch and let me know if they liked it or not, and if not why.I ran out of book marks!
Conquor that fear Elizabeth, lets all enjoy your work, sensible comments from people who have been there and done it, is how we learn, and hopefully, at least in my case, improve.
Sleep calls, I'm averaging one typo every other word, and that is bad, even for me!!!
All the best Paul Rix [oldgeezer:]

Becoming an author has been an adventure that pushed me up against all my fears. It took me 20 years to write Tales of the Titmouse. The first writers conference I went to told me that I wasn't famous enough to publish a memoir, and that people were buying "funny" books to make them laugh, or something to educate them or.... I wanted to do a cross-over book (Christian and secular) a catagory that didn't exist at that time. My friends and family were worried about me digging up my past. I was so worried about my lack of education that I hired an editor before I finished writing it, and still had 2 more people polish it for me. To top it all off I had to talk to a DA to find out if I'd end up in jail if I published, and a literary attorney because of the famous people I mentioned and a infamous murder. Right as I finished jumping through these hoops; James Fry published A Million Little Pieces and set up a huge hurdle for all authors writing about the drug world, because he stretched the truth. Would I have published if I knew this back then? I'm not sure. But everytime I hear from someone whose been encouraged by my memories, I'm glad I didn't let any of these obstacles stop me. Now I can relax and write this novel that is in my mind. I've got all my empty notebooks at home and at work to sketch out the ideas, before I put it into the computer. Wondering if I like this first line, "I remember the day well, the day that would be my last day on earth."

Steven wrote: "ok I have some questions for any author or authors that want to answer it.
When starting a story, do you ever just start writing something not knowing where it's going to go? Do you always know h..."

Steven, I develop a story, plot, characters, etc., all in my head, beginning to end - no notes, no voice recording. The most challenging part is the time it takes to translate what's in my head to the keyboard, especially since I write chronologically.

Writing YA fantasy, the world is all mine so research isn't necessary. I do confine my world to certain parameters so nothing surprising or unexplained suddenly happens and leaves the reader scratching their heads saying "where did she get that? Or "she never set that up." I tried not to be predictable in the story line, but always stay with in believable parameters.

That's right! Hang in there, Julie. You have lots and lots of talent and skill. Keep on writing.

Oops, this was an answer to Julie's post of a page back.

Thanks, Jeanne. I just got paper copies of my novel the other day (published via CreateSpace) and in a couple more days I'll have real copies of my illustrated booklet "My Little Book of the Soul."

That's another self-publishing venture, not fiction but not quite fact, and I haven't really figured out how to market it yet.

Julie,

Don't you love paper copies? So much more satisfying than reading on a screen. I know I spend too much on books, but it's worth it to me.

And to hold your own book in your hands...what a thrill! I adored seeing my story with the others in the Ménage-à-20 anthology and right now I'm waiting for the delivery of fifty copies of Unlocked.

Is "My Little Book of the Soul" a story based on real events? Inspiration? A collection of anecdotes? And when you say illustrated, do you mean the story is drawn?

Julie wrote: "'Through' for 'throw?' Yeah, that's an ouch.

My novel sat in a drawer for 15 years, so I had to scan it when it came out. The scanner couldn't tell a comma from a period, and it seems these days ..."
Dear Julie!
I TOO HAVE STRUGGLED FOR MY BOOKS'S GENRE NICHE.
The choices to check the genre box just don't fit. There should be 'a niche of it's own, so don't pass it over', genre box to check.

Typos!!!! My first edition had an extra 1/2 chapter not to mention since I learned to type in Junior High, I can never type a 't' with an 'h' in the correct order. (That is called motor memory.) I read that someone held a contest for their readers to actually find the typos. They marketed on it. Okay, not good professional form, but, we all have to live and learn. So, I am trying to just laugh about my mistakes, because I am only human. If the reader thinks your quality of story gets taken down a notch because of a few typos, then maybe they should try writing their own book. You accomplished a goal that 83% of Americans only dream about. You did it, Julie! Among, I am sure you have many, talents you are a published author. So celebrate!!! Best of luck and roll with the punches. Malika

Steven wrote: "ok I have some questions for any author or authors that want to answer it.
When starting a story, do you ever just start writing something not knowing where it's going to go? Do you always know h..."

Steven,

Sometimes I do start to write with out having idea where the story is going to go, it happens to a lot of us. I sometimes write bits and pieces of the story and just put it together. Some of us do little charts. The only chart I do is about the characters that way I will be able to keep in mind how each character looks/acts. As for research I just go online and look up what I need to know. I don't really have any special kind of system for that.

Atarah L. Poling

Julie wrote: "Okay, okay! I admit it! I'm utterly lacking in confidence. I'm terrified my book isn't good enough, that it won't stand up to critical eyes.

But what else can I do? I can't give up on myself, can I?"

Don't ever give up Julie, I know I feel that way at times. No confidence what so ever in my reading. Don't worry it will def. help when you get some compliments on stuff that you have written. Good luck.

Atarah L. Poling

I usually know where I want to take a story, but once I start writing, the characters tend to lead the way while I throw in obstacles. I always backtrack as I write. I will usually read the last few pages written, before I begin to write again. And often times, I'll backtrack a couple of chapters just to make sure I'm on track and I like the pacing. Everyone has their method that works best for them. Julie, you're right, never give up on yourself. Don't throw away your notes, just set them aside and start something new, that way your notes will be there when inspiration strikes.


First line to A Necessary Heir

"Bloody hell," Jackson cursed, looking about the cluttered room with a sense of exhaustion.

Steven wrote: "ok I have some questions for any author or authors that want to answer it.
When starting a story, do you ever just start writing something not knowing where it's going to go? Do you always know h..."

Steven, my first book was my true memoirs of when I was seven that I turned into a fictitious children’s story. I didn’t write it until I was 53, but over the years, whenever I told people the things I did, they'd laugh and cringe. If my mother heard me, she would give me a black look and tell me to stop embarrassing her because she knew it to be true. She'd asked me why I wanted people to know that I put mouldy dog poo in my mouth, thinking it was a cocoanut toffee, or that I collected used bubble-gum from the pavement and chewed it up to make a giant ball. Or that I accidently broke the bathroom wall in the girl’s bathroom at school and ran over the headmistress with my friend’s bicycle. (The headmistress was a nun.)

When I told her I was turning my memories into a fictitious children’s story, she was mortified, but when I published that book, I gave her a copy for Christmas. When she read it, she laughed her head off and showed it to all her friends in the retirement village where she lives. They all loved it too, and bought copies of both of my published books. They've also ordered my next children’s book that is due out in a few weeks. Now, my mother is proud of my antics and is my best sales tool. Mind, when the sequel comes out, I’ll probably cop it from her again as I have many more memories.

Back to your question, Steven, In my first book, Star-Crossed Rascals, I added fiction to the last part of the story because in real life, I was banned from playing with my best friend, ever again. I didn't plan out how it was going to end, it just happened as I wrote. Even I didn't know the ending.

My other published book is a children’s fantasy I wrote after buying a weird-looking fairy doll in an opportunity shop. I didn’t plan out the story, I just wrote as I went along. Even I didn’t know what was to happen until the end. I had to created a character that wanted a wish, so I created Velvet Ball, a nine-year-old girl with alopecia so she could wish for her hair back. When I wrote the ending, I even surprised myself. Writing stories for me is quite entertaining as I never know where they will lead me until I actually write it. It’s like having someone sitting on my shoulder telling me what to write. Well, all except for the first half of my Rascal Series- they’re true.

Some writers just start writing and see where the circumstances and characters take them. E.L. Doctorow likened it to driving through the dark, following your headlights, never seeing very far yet able to reach a destination.

Others prefer to plan out the story completely, to know every element and incident. John Irving does it this way.

The right way is the way that works. I suggest all writers try it both ways several times and see which fits their intellect and temperament.

Glenn Cheney
cheneybooks.com

need advice from published authors:
My daughter has her book release, book release reception and first book signing next week. (she is 23) Is there anything specific that you would recommend that I do to mark the occasion? Anything special that your mother did or you wish she had done ?

Oh Karen - you are wonderful! And huge congrats to your daughter. What is the name of her book if you don't mind sharing?

My mother BOUGHT my book and recommended it to everyone she met. She runs a motel, so that is a lot of people : ) You'll be amazed at how many people say they can't wait to buy your book and then when it does come out - don't. So any sales will be a thrill for her. Having a good bottle of bubbly to mark the occasion (maybe even wait till after the signing) would be a lovely surprise with just the family. She will no doubt be exhausted after all that : ) Wow! 23! She has a wonderful future ahead of her.

First line of my Romantic Suspense, Stupid. So stupid.
Guardian of the Jewel

Congrats to your daughter Karen - I hope the book goes well for her. I host guest blogs, author interviews and giveaways for other authors on my blog as well as promoting my own stuff - so if your daughter would like to be interviewed or anything, just let me know and I'd be happy to fit her in. My contact email is on my blog:

http://www.nickijmarkus.com

LaVerne - your words are so true. I have a huge number of online, friends, penpals, family etc and so many said they'd get my books, but when I got my first ever sales figures last week it was pretty disappointing. Oh well...I'm only just starting out and things can only get better! ;)

Thanks for the advice. Nicki, I think she has to go through her publicist before doing interviews, but I will definitely ask her.
Thank you both for preparing me for the "down" side of it.

LaVerne, Because you asked, her book is The Reading Promise. I am trying not to be the mom promoting it type of mom; to remember that I am just the mom and here to support her. Kinda hard because I want to shout from the mountaintops if you know what I mean.

Oh Karen! How sweet you are. My mother passed away before she could read my book , so this touched me. I do write aobut her to honor her memory and how much she was a part of my life.
SO, I would say that just your presence is such a huge gift and memory for her. FLowers are nice too. My mother sent me flowers- delivered to my first hair salon- for a entire year! She's a nut.
Best of luck and success to your daughter , you must be so proud.
Reach for Peace,
Patti

I want to thank everyone for great advice. My daughter's book launch seemed to go well and I think the best "gift" was my just being there.
If I had it to do over, however I would call the bookstore and make sure they had enough copies! The store was sold out before she even began signing.

Karen wrote: "I want to thank everyone for great advice. My daughter's book launch seemed to go well and I think the best "gift" was my just being there.
If I had it to do over, however I would call the bookst..."

That's great news!!!

Karen wrote: "I want to thank everyone for great advice. My daughter's book launch seemed to go well and I think the best "gift" was my just being there.
If I had it to do over, however I would call the bookst..."

Sold out! How fantastic!! Bet you are one proud Mum : )

Hi J.O. When you find the answer to your question, do you mind sharing? *grin* I think this is the hardest thing for a new author - getting your work in front of them. I've been told numerous times the best kind of promotion is to get busy and get more books out there and the rest will take care of itself. The new authors I've taken a chance on lately are ones published by my publisher, or fellow Kiwi writers. For me, I need to feel a kinship with them to spend the money on their work. Hope this helps?? : )

Steven wrote: "ok I have some questions for any author or authors that want to answer it.
When starting a story, do you ever just start writing something not knowing where it's going to go? Do you always know h..."

I confess I am not a writer but because I own a sel-publishing web site, I get to meet a lot. What I notice them say are two things. Sometimes people have something they want to talk about, like drug addiction or the loss of a parent, so they build a story with that in mind. The other way is that they start with one small idea like a rainbow and let it build. You always have to mold it no matter what kind of writing you do. Thats the part people don't like to do because they think it takes away creativity and in a way it does but it's the only way to truly finish a story or novel.

Julie wrote: "Okay, okay! I admit it! I'm utterly lacking in confidence. I'm terrified my book isn't good enough, that it won't stand up to critical eyes.

But what else can I do? I can't give up on myself, can I?"

Your right you can't give up. Every writer suffers from low self confidence. You have to get to a place where you deiced you would rather try and fail then not try at all. If you go, go big.

James wrote: "The opening line of my novel, No Place to Die, is "Dinner was almost ready when Beverly Thompson was snatched from her garage on a beautiful Wednesday evening early in February.""

I like the line but I felt like there was to much going on for the first line. You need to ease people in so that they can get a good mental picture first. Remember, you know where your story is going but your reader doesn't. You could be in a studio in Detroit or hanging from the tooth of a a ten foot monster on mars.

Editio Team wrote: "Julie wrote: "Okay, okay! I admit it! I'm utterly lacking in confidence. I'm terrified my book isn't good enough, that it won't stand up to critical eyes.

But what else can I do? I can't give up o..."

For a supposed self-publishing consultancy, I see several grammar and spelling errors. What's with that??

Larry wrote: "Editio Team wrote: "Julie wrote: "Okay, okay! I admit it! I'm utterly lacking in confidence. I'm terrified my book isn't good enough, that it won't stand up to critical eyes.

But what else can I d..."

Clearly that is not my job at the Company. Just giving my thoughts to people I think might appreciate it.

Editio Team wrote: "Larry wrote: "Editio Team wrote: "Julie wrote: "Okay, okay! I admit it! I'm utterly lacking in confidence. I'm terrified my book isn't good enough, that it won't stand up to critical eyes.

But wha..."

Ahh, clarity is exactly the point. It's also lacking on your company website. Unlike most businesses that seek to build a personal rapport with prospective clients, your website says: "About & Staff
Legacy publishers have a team of people backing every author they handle, everything from editors, agents, publicists you name it. It’s time you had a team of experts behind you as well. That’s were we come in, we have a panel of experts in the field of self-publishing who contribute there insider tips and opinions on a daily, if not hourly basis. We will bring you everything from editors, PR , analysts, artist, designer, you name it."

Frankly, this sounds like a one-man band. Prove me wrong and name the people filling all those jobs: editors, agents, publicists,, analysts, plus an artist and designer. I admire people who have entrepreneurial spirit, but not those who seek to deceive prospective customers.

"Steven wrote: "ok I have some questions for any author or authors that want to answer it.
When starting a story, do you ever just start writing something not knowing where it's going to go?

I have found that when I start outlining, things go badly. So I don't preplan the whole novel - but I do generally know point A and point Z and that one brilliant scene at point Q. What I do is I don't allow myself to write point Q 'til I GET to point Q, because then I won't write the rest of the book! But it's like having the corner pieces for a puzzle, and then everything else is a discovery.

"Steven wrote: "ok I have some questions for any author or authors that want to answer it. When starting a story, do you ever just start writing something not knowing where it's going to go?

I usually have a general hook/idea that has spurred a story on. So to start off, I take that hook and loosely plot out a number of chapters-- maybe 6-8 at a time. Then I start writing, forcing myself to not overthink what I've written. (Otherwise, I will sit and edit the heck out of myself and not get anywhere at all.)

Once I have a few chapters done, then I go back and lightly edit for flow, character arcs, tone, humor quality, etc. (I've been writing humor sci-fi). Then I plot out another batch of chapters-- and by that time, I'm usually into the story enough I know where it can go and where it will end.

When it's all done, then I will do many, many rounds of edits for quality.

This process keeps me interested and retains those great little surprises that authors enjoy when plots take unexpected turns or characters seem to change their minds. I once plotted a whole book out in great detail and found I knew everything already, so it lost its zip.

But this process has kept things fresh and fun. Because, let's face it-- when you're eventually going to critically examine what you've written a bazillion times, you need fresh and fun. :)

"Steven wrote: "ok I have some questions for any author or authors that want to answer it.
When starting a story, do you ever just start writing something not knowing where it's going to go?

Absolutely!

A story is like a child -- you are the child's parent, who directs and takes care of the kid, but the child still has a mind of their own. You may want to pull them one way, but they want to go the other way, and will tug on you until you listen to them.

A story does the same. You may start off knowing what you want to do, and then the story will change itself, or you may start with no idea, and the story will lead you along. All in all, in my experience, the best stories are the ones that I only know a little about, or have no idea of where they will go.

I know the opening, and sometimes the end. What happens in between, I rely on the characters to influence me. Sometimes they win, sometimes I win. It can be a cooperative effort or a full-fledged food fight. I find it works out best when I get them into an impossible fix and then watch them fight it out.

"Steven wrote: "ok I have some questions for any author or authors that want to answer it.
When starting a story, do you ever just start writing something not knowing where it's going to go?

I use outlines pretty extensively, though I change the outline frequently as I explore the narrative. My pattern is: write, outline, write, rework the outline... My goal is to waste as little time as possible without hindering the creative process. The more I know about my story's future, the more nuanced the scenes are during the early drafts. For my first novel, I used a stream of consciousness process that led to a lot of rewrites and cuts. A lot.

Eric wrote: ""Steven wrote: "ok I have some questions for any author or authors that want to answer it.
When starting a story, do you ever just start writing something not knowing where it's going to go?

I use..."
I usually start with characters and an idea of the story I want to tell about them, nothing like an outline. My first draft is pretty short, but complete as far as the people and their actions. Then I flesh out descriptions, details, and any research I need to do. Frequently I end up having to back up and put in more story at the beginning to clarify things that I know in my head but readers won't.

Steven wrote: "ok I have some questions for any author or authors that want to answer it.
When starting a story, do you ever just start writing something not knowing where it's going to go? Do you always know h..."

Outline. I'm writing a series, and the first three books are written, so there are a lot of irons (plots) in the fire (previous books). Also, I outline two books at a time, so I can get really dense foreshadowing. I start with a framework of where my characters need to travel to further the big picture plot elements, and then I allow the story—as it develops—govern how many chapters they'll end up spending in each location.
So, at first, I just have a sentence or two for each chapter (I tend to write around twenty chapters per book). Then I play around with them until I've got a paragraph or so per chapter. At this point, lots of things change. This is when the real excitement begins for me. After a couple weeks of fiddling, I'll increase it to a full page for each chapter. Bits of dialogue will surface, I start filling placeholder character names with real ones.
When I start bouncing off the walls about how pleased I am with it, I then flesh every chapter out to a two page treatment. I may even draft a few key scenes if I'm afraid I might forget them. (This means some chapter treatments will get as long as four or five pages.)
So, by the time I start, I've got maybe a hundred pages of material in total (both books). At that point I draft the first book. And it's such a joy and relief to finally be writing it. I look forward EVERY day to sitting down and writing. When the draft is finally finished, I go back to the beginning, look at the work, and think: this is terrible. I mean really awful. I then put it aside for four to six months while I work on drafting the next book or editing the previous.
Only after those four to six months can I face starting the first edit, which is always the worst. And, after about twenty-five passes during twelve months fierce editing, I have a book that I think doesn't suck. Yay! Then I do the happy author dance, send it to my illustrator, and get to work on editing or drafting one of the other books in series.

Pete wrote: "I know the opening, and sometimes the end. What happens in between, I rely on the characters to influence me. Sometimes they win, sometimes I win. It can be a cooperative effort or a full-fledged f..."

Tell me do you write it down or let them battle in your head first? I sort my chapters in my head, this morning I worked out my twist to end the book with a bang! I just hope I can remember it all tomorrow!

Richard,

I like your system! I find my outlines are minimal in the beginning as well, then slowly expanding.