The History Book Club discussion

Bentley wrote: "Arthur Fremantle:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_F..."

Got it now, thanks. :)

You are most welcome; just got busy and did not realize that I had not posted it when called away.

Rifles:

Enfield: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattern_...

1861 Springfield: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfi...

1863 Springfield: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfi...

There is one very good book that covers nearly every aspect you could think of in regards to Gettysburg. If your really keen and you want to learn more you could try this book:

by Mark Adkin
Publishers blurb:
"Gettysburg, fought over three days at the beginning of July 1863, is the subject of the third of Mark Adkin's magisterial 'Battle Companions' which have been universally acclaimed as comprehensive and definitive works, distinguished by their superb illustrations and selling in impressive quantities. The Waterloo Companion (2001, ISBN 978 1 85410 764 0) has so far sold 23,000 copies while The Trafalgar Companion (2005, ISBN 978 1 84513 018 3) has sold 16,500 to date. After a prologue describing the Union defeat at Chancellorsville and the death of the Confederates' greatest general, 'Stonewall' Jackson, the book begins with a chapter on the orders of battle showing, in diagrammatic form, unit strengths, commanders down to regimental and battery level, and casualties for all the units engaged. There then follow chapters on each of the arms - infantry, cavalry, artillery and other arms such as signals, medical and transport - followed by a chapter on the military and political command and control on both sides. The next chapter covers the campaign leading up to the battle followed by one on the battlefield itself. A single chapter is then devoted to each of the three days fighting, starting with a summary of the situation the rival generals faced at the start of the day and their plans and then describing in detail the phases of the day's fighting and its decisive 'highlights' such as the defence of Little Round Top on the second day and Pickett's Charge on the third, concluding with a section on the historical controversies' that have subsequently emerged. . The book is completed by a chapter on the battle's aftermath, an epilogue on the 50th anniversary celebrations in 1913 and appendices. Throughout, the main text is supplemented by 'boxes' featuring curious or little-known facts or the first-hand accounts of participants."

Thanks, Aussie Rick. That looks as great. I like that it has illustrations, cause you really need to see the terrain to understand much of what happened at Gettysburg.

Hi Elizabeth, I have a copy of the companion volume on Waterloo and it has great maps, lovely colourful illustrations. It’s a beautiful book to look at, just to flick through and read little titbits of information, a great reference book.

More Fremantle stuff:

His book written about his time observing in the Southern States:

by Arthur J.L. Fremantle

Amazing website: http://www.colfremantle.com/

Has pictures of the recent Fremantle family reunion, picture of a descendant of Fremantle and a descendant of Longstreet together at Gettysburg, virtual tours or re-enactments, just lots of stuff.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "There is one very good book that covers nearly every aspect you could think of in regards to Gettysburg. If your really keen and you want to learn more you could try this book:

[bookcover:The Ge..."

Unfortunately, not at our local library. I was hoping.

Here is a great site that gives short definitions of a lot of civil war terms:

http://www.civilwarhome.com/terms.htm

In case there is anyone like me who is having a hard time with the similar names, note that McLaws and Laws are two different men under Longstreet, McLaws in charge of a division, and Laws in charge of a brigade under Hood.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettysbu... for the Confederate side

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettysbu... for the Union side. Very helpful to keep track of who was in charge of which brigade/division/regiment/whatever

To continue a bit the discussion on Longstreet I started in message #16 in http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

After the war, Longstreet wrote a book, a memoir, about his experiences and opinions about the Civil War.

Here's the book: by James Longstreet

And here it is online: From Manassas To Appomattox

Historians have been critical of Longstreet for second-guessing Lee and basically blaming Lee for what happened at Gettysburg. According to the SparkNotes for Killer Angels, "The book gave Longstreet a negative reputation all through the early twentieth century."

However, the wikipedia article on Longstreet adds a little more light to the situation. Some people, such as Early, still revered Lee and didn't want to say anything negative about him, so they began publicly blaming Longstreet for the failure at Gettysburg. So Longstreet finally wrote his memoirs to defend himself.

And there were other reasons some people (especially in the south) were critical of Longstreet. According to wikipedia, "Longstreet became a 'reconstructed rebel', embraced equal rights for blacks, unification of the nation, and reconstruction." For those unwilling to accept the outcome of the Civil War, he sounds like a prime target.

Now, however, perhaps because we are further away in time from the Civil War, "some historians began to see Longstreet in a more positive light—particularly in what they believed was his anticipation of modern warfare." (See the SparkNotes for Killer Angels.)

Hi Elizabeth, if you or any other readers of KA are looking for some additional information of Longstreet I could suggest a book by H.J. Eckenrode & Bryan Conrad as being a pretty decent starting point:

by H. J. Eckenrode
Publishers blurb:
In this work, first published in 1936, the authors follow Longstreet from his leading role in the military history of the Confederacy through his controversial postwar career and eventual status as an outcast in southern society.
Reviews:
“It will prove indispensable to students of the Civil War for the new points of view which it opens up.” - Times Literary Supplement

”It sets forth, in admirable detail and with scrupulous accuracy, the story of Longstreet's military career.” - Henry Steele Commager, New York Herald Tribune

”Should appeal to all students of the Civil War.” - Stephen Vincent BenŽt, Saturday Review

Thanks for the recommendation, Aussie Rick. I usually like to start with something solid and reliable that covers the subject matter. That looks like the right kind of starting point. You've read a little of everything, haven't you!

Hi Elizabeth, when it come to history & books, I can't help myself :) The book is a bit dated but I found it a good starting point, decent and easy to read.

I suppose if you are going to have an addiction, it might as well be such a nice one where you can share and help others like this.

I was just reading some of the articles about Old Abe, the bald eagle (female) that was the mascot of the 8th Wisconsin Volunteer Infantry Regiment in the American Civil War and is the screaming eagle mascot depicted on the insignia of the U.S. Army's 101st Airborne Division. Old Abe was also the trademark eagle on the globe of the Case tractor company.

Here are some photos of her:




"Old Abe", the mascot of the 8th Wisconsin Volunteer Infantry during the Civil War.




"Old Abe" and "Color Guard" of the 8th Regiment, Wisconsin Volunteer Infantry. At this time, Edward Homaston was eagle-bearer, so it is probable he is the man holding the stand. Armitage is third from the left.

One source claimed the men in this photo were from left to right:
Old Abe and the Color Guard at Vicksburg July 1863 from left to right Ed Homaston, Christopher Darius Gorman, Sgt Ambrose Armitage, (unknown), Myron Riggs and 3 more unknowns.

Old Abe is pictured on the patch of the 101st Airborne:

[image error]

The bald eagle was chosen June 20, 1782 as the emblem of the United States of American, because of its long life, great strength and majestic looks, and also because it was then believed to exist only on this continent.

And I thought this is very interesting:

The insignia of the U.S. Army's 101st Airborne Division is a depiction of Old Abe. The design is based on one of the Civil War traditions of the state of Wisconsin, which was the territory of the original 101st Division after World War I. The black shield recalls the Iron Brigade, the famous Civil War unit composed of western regiments (although not the 8th Wisconsin).

Some additional info:

About Old Abe in the Civil War:

Old Abe was captured in 1861 by Chief Sky near the Chippewa River, near the town of Jim Falls, in Chippewa County, Wisconsin. She was subsequently traded to local farmer, Daniel McCann, for a bushel of corn, who in turn sold her to the 8th Wisconsin's Company C for $2.50.

Company C named the eagle after President Abraham Lincoln, and designed a special perch on which they carried the bird into battle. Old Abe participated in the Second Battle of Corinth (in which the 8th Wisconsin lost half of its men) and the Siege of Vicksburg, among other battles.

In battle, Old Abe quickly became legendary, screaming and spreading her wings at the enemy. Confederate troops called her the "Yankee Buzzard" and made several attempts to capture her but never succeeded. Several times she lost feathers to bullets and saw her handlers get shot out from under her.

When passing by, Generals Ulysses S. Grant, William T. Sherman, and William Rosecrans were known to doff their hats to the eagle.

In 1864, Old Abe returned to Wisconsin with several veterans who did not reenlist. Nevertheless, she remained famous and was invited to, among other events, the 1880 Grand Army of the Republic National Convention, and the 1876 Centennial Exposition in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

When not at public events, her caretaker kept her in the Wisconsin State Capitol.

The War Eagle had quite a record!

http://users.ap.net/~chenae/oldabe4.html

Old Abe the War Eagle:

http://users.ap.net/~chenae/oldabe7.html

The Old Abe Website (smile)

http://users.ap.net/~chenae/oldabe.html

Alden R. Carter

Frank Abial Flower

Kathy-Jo Wargin

(no cover available) Old Abe The War Eagle: A True Story Of The Civil War And Reconstruction by Richard Zeitlin

Joseph O. Barrett

About Wisconsin's involvement in the Civil War and about the Iron Brigade:

With the outbreak of the American Civil War, the northwestern state of Wisconsin raised 91,379 soldiers for the Union Army, organized into 53 infantry regiments, 4 cavalry regiments, a company of Berdan’s sharpshooters, 13 light artillery batteries and 1 unit of heavy artillery.

Most of the Wisconsin troops served in the Western Theater, although several regiments served in Eastern armies, including three regiments within the famed Iron Brigade.

3,794 were killed in action or mortally wounded, 8,022 died of disease, and 400 were killed in accidents. The total mortality was 12,216 men, about 13.4 percent of total enlistments.

Approximately 1 in 9 residents (regardless of age, sex or qualification for service) served in the army, and, in turn, half the eligible voters served.

Wisconsin was the only state to organize replacements for troops that had already been fielded, leading northern generals to prefer to have some regiments from the state if possible.

A number of Wisconsin regiments were distinguished, including three that served in the celebrated Iron Brigade— the 2nd Wisconsin, 6th Wisconsin, and 7th Wisconsin. All were noted for their hard fighting and dashing appearance, being among the only troops in the Army of the Potomac to wear Hardee hats and long frock coats. They suffered severely at the Battle of Gettysburg in July 1863.

The 8th Wisconsin, another hard-fighting regiment, was often accompanied into battle by its mascot, Old Abe, a bald eagle.

Bentley wrote: "About Wisconsin's involvement in the Civil War and about the Iron Brigade:

With the outbreak of the American Civil War, the northwestern state of Wisconsin raised 91,379 soldiers for the Union Arm..."

I don't know if this is literally true but, growing up in Wisconsin, I was told that many, if not most, of the enlistees were immigrants, particularly from Germany. Two reasons for this: it was a quick route to citizenship and the military tradition of the old country.

Off topic but interesting, when I visited the Custer Battlefield, I was somewhat surprised to learn that, once again, many members of the Seventh Cavalry were German immigrants.

That is all really interesting stuff, Bentley. I especially loved the history of the eagle as a mascot. There is always something interesting to learn about, isn't there!

Ed, I did not realize that you had grown up in Wisconsin. Gee, I do not know; but that might be the case.

I did find this on Wikipedia:

Civil War

Sentiment among German Americans was largely anti-slavery, especially among Forty-Eighters. Hundreds of thousands of German Americans volunteered to fight for the Union in the American Civil War (1861–1865). The Germans were the largest immigrant group to participate in the Civil War; over 176,000 U.S. soldiers were born in Germany. A popular Union commander among Germans, Major General Franz Sigel was the highest-ranking German officer in the Union Army, with many German immigrants claiming to enlist to "fight mit Sigel."

Although only one in four Germans fought in all-German regiments, they created the public image of the German soldier. Pennsylvania fielded five German regiments; New York eleven, and Ohio six.

This I also found on Wikipedia:

German-American army units

Approximately 516,000 (23.4% of all Union soldiers) were German Americans; about 216,000 of these were born in Germany. New York supplied the largest number of these native-born Germans with 36,000. Behind the Empire State came Missouri with 30,000 and Ohio with 20,000.

Scores of individual regiments, such as the 9th Ohio, 74th Pennsylvania and the 9th Wisconsin Infantry, consisted entirely of German Americans. Major recruiting efforts aimed at German Americans were conducted in Cincinnati, St. Louis, and Milwaukee, among many other cities.

Commonly referred to as "Dutchmen" among other Union soldiers, German-American units in general earned a reputation for discipline and ruthlessness.

Many of the Germans who fought for the Union during the Civil War had been professional soldiers in Germany, and had since come to America, many to escape persecution. Europe was at peace, for the most part, in the early 1860s. Professional soldiers were out of work or stuck in the same rank for a long time. The American Civil War offered them a new venue.

A popular Union commander and native German, Major General Franz Sigel was the highest ranking German-American officer in the Union Army, with many Germans enlisting to "fight mit Sigel." Sigel was a political appointment of President Abraham Lincoln, who hoped that Sigel's immense popularity would help deliver the votes of the increasingly important German segment of the population.

He was a member of the Forty-Eighters, a political movement of the revolutions in German states that led to thousands of Germans immigrating to the United States. These included such future Civil War officers such as Maj. Gen. Carl Schurz, Brig. Gen. August Willich, Louis Blenker, Max Weber, and Alexander Schimmelfennig.
Schurz was part of the politico-social movement in America known as the Turners, who contributed to getting Lincoln elected as President. The Turners provided the bodyguard at Lincoln's inauguration on March 4, 1861, and also at Lincoln's funeral in April 1865.

Other prominent German-born generals included Godfrey Weitzel, Adolph von Steinwehr, Edward S. Salomon, Frederick C. Salomon, August Kautz and Peter Osterhaus. Hundreds of German-born officers both led regiments during the war, including Col. Gustav Tafel, Col. Paul A. Frank, Col. Friedrich Hecker, Col. Leopold von Gilsa, and Maj. Jurgen Wilson. Among the very best Union artillerists was German-born Capt. Hubert Dilger, who had been trained at the Karlsruhe Military Academy.

Veteran Prussian military officer Heros von Borcke slipped through the Union blockade into Charleston Harbor and eventually became one of Confederate Maj. Gen. J.E.B. Stuart's closest confidants and his Chief of Staff and Adjutant. In 1866, he became one of the few former Confederate officers to fight in the Austro-Prussian War.

I also found this:

http://www.civilwarhome.com/german.htm

This looks interesting too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_...

And this:

http://wesclark.com/jw/foreign_soldie...

Ed, it appears you are absolutely correct..I also think on one of the threads that Elizabeth also mentioned how Shaara was talking about the various languages and foreign tongues heard among the soldiers..odd I never knew the extent and numbers of these foreign soldiers. And the Germans were extremely loyal to their new country.


(no book cover available) - They Fought for the Union. by Francis Alfred Lord

Henry Steele Commager

Ed, thank you for that post.

Elizabeth S wrote: "That is all really interesting stuff, Bentley. I especially loved the history of the eagle as a mascot. There is always something interesting to learn about, isn't there!"

I never knew about the eagle or the connections to the 101st Airborne, etc. Then Ed posted and I found out about even more stuff I did not know. Fascinating really.

I think all this stuff about people from other countries, or recent immigrants, fighting in the Civil War is so interesting. Shaara just briefly mentions it, mostly in his Foreward. And there isn't much more on it in the book. I think that when studying history we may remember that we are a country of immigrants, but we forget how many 1st generation immigrants there were at various times. And that means people with different languages and accents.

Makes me want to go find a book on the history of the American accent.

Yes, I never realized that either. There were quite a few 1st generation immigrants and folks who came who literally started their experience in our country in the Civil War. Very strange..I was trying to imagine it today. It is like our saying today, "well you can come to America for freedom; but with one catch; you have to serve in Afghanistan or Iraq first!"

We referenced books written by other characters, but I don't think we have Chamberlain's book yet. He wrote The Passing of Armies: An Account Of The Final Campaign Of The Army Of The Potomac. According to wikipedia, it tells his story during the second half of the Civil War, i.e. from Gettysburg on. It was published a year after Chamberlain's death.

by Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pass...