Victorians! discussion

MadgeUK wrote: "IMO Hardy's novels are more realistic than dark. He is describing the hard life of those times, especially as they relate to women."

Exactly. He was one of the few Victorian writers willing to write life as it really was. (Dickens was another, he portraying real life in the city, Hardy in the country.)

MadgeUK wrote: "...it is known that women/girls at 16 are capable of being more independent...'

That is because the women and girls of today have been given independence and are able to go out and about in the wo..."

When I made that comment I was not talking about girls today, I was talking about examples of girls in other Victorian novels we have read in which girls of Tess's age or close to it exhibited more indpendence than Tess has done.

Everyman wrote: "Silver wrote: "Ok there is just something I just have to say, becasue it has been bugging me ever since I read it.

I have heard a lot about this book before reading it, and everyone always talks ..."

That is quite compelling and I thank you for the interesting information you have provided onto this subject. It does offer a new way for me to view the situation and with this provided background information it does make the possibility of the incident being a rape a bit more plausible to me than it previously had been.

Everyman worte: He notes that Hardy himself was a bit conflicted. In the serialization of the novel, before it was published as a full book, he dropped the dance/woods scene entirely and had Tess subjected to a fake marriage....

Though I know I have been a bit "stubborn" in my opinions regarding Tess, and well I have had rather strong reactions towards her, as it is true her personality and character is quite different than the sort that I am usually more inclined to be drawn too.

I am rather enjoying the book and I do appreciate Hardy's unconventionality in his desire to portray an image of this woman/girl who is in fact still pure in spite of (and perhaps in some ways even because of) the fact that she was taken advantage of and the way in which he does challenge the conventional Victorian ideas of the "fallen woman"

I am glad that he did not decide to sort of cop out with the marriage scenario.

Thanks for that useful info Everyman. I think your extract also illustrates the difficulties which Hardy had with his publisher regarding his realistic portrayal of Tess becoming 'fallen', which I will refer to later on in the novel because it would constitute a spoiler at this stage.

Anatole Broyard commented in the NYT 'Though [Thomas Hardy:] was a modern, even revolutionary writer in his time, most of us read him now as a lyrical pastoralist. It may be a sign of the times that some of us take his books to bed, as if even his pessimistic vision was one that enabled us to sleep soundly.'

Extract from an online literary review (POSSIBLE SPOILER):

'Hardy added the subtitle, 'A Pure Woman Faithfully Presented', at the last moment. It has created problems for readers and critics ever since the novel's appearance. The title offends many on moral grounds, for whom Tess is a "ruined," immoral woman. Others are puzzled intellectually; what is Hardy's basis for calling her pure? Hardy defended the subtitle in an 1892 interview with Raymond Blathwayt:

"... I still maintain that her innate purity remained intact to the very last; though I frankly own that a certain outward purity left her on her last fall. I regarded her then as being in the hands of circumstances, not morally responsible, a mere corpse drifting with the current to her end."

The subtitle has been defended in various ways. For example, Hardy is showing that the traditional Christian view equating virtue and purity with virginity is wrong. Or Hardy is distinguishing between the act and the intention....Irving Howe offers a more subtle explanation:

"In her incomparable vibrancy and lovingness, she comes to represent a spiritualized transcendence of chastity. She dies three times, to live again:--first with Alec D'Urberville, then with Angel Clare, and lastly with Alec again. Absolute victim of her wretched circumstances, she is ultimately beyond their stain. She embodies a feeling for the inviolability of the person, as it brings the absolute of charity nearer to the warming Christian virtue of charity. Through a dialectic of negation, Tess reaches purity of spirit even as she fails to satisfy the standards of the world."

For F.B. Pinton, her purity derives from her victimization:

"... she is the victim of chance--of heredity, physical and temperamental; of the position she was born into, and all the other factors that impinge on her life. She could not be held responsible for them; she was, in Hardy's words, 'a pure woman'."

Sandybanks wrote: "I think Hardy writes Tess as a realistic character, instead of a romanticized or idealized one. She is a 16 year old farm girl with barely any education, who is pushed into a relationship with a so..."

And this I believe, is where her age does matter. Whether the reader sees it as rape, statuory rape, date rape, seduction or sexual harrament, her age is so very relevant.

Silver wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "...it is known that women/girls at 16 are capable of being more independent...'

That is because the women and girls of today have been given independence and are able to go out a..."

One could argue that those portrayed as being more "independent" at 16 and younger is a romanticized, unreleastic portrayal yet the portrayal such as that of Tess, far more realistic and the norm during that period.

MadgeUK wrote: Irving Howe offers a more subtle explanation:

"In her incomparable vibrancy and lovingness, she comes to represent a spiritualized transcendence of chastity. She dies three times, to live again:--first with Alec D'Urberville, then with Angel Clare, and lastly with Alec again. Absolute victim of her wretched circumstances, she is ultimately beyond their stain. She embodies a feeling for the inviolability of the person, as it brings the absolute of charity nearer to the warming Christian virtue of charity. Through a dialectic of negation, Tess reaches purity of spirit even as she fails to satisfy the standards of the world."

This conversation reminds me of the virtuous prostitutes in nineteenth century Russian novels. Why could Dostoevsky get away with his depictions, but not Hardy?

Juanita wrote: "Silver wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "...it is known that women/girls at 16 are capable of being more independent...'

That is because the women and girls of today have been given independence and are a..."


But does not the very fact that we have women authors and women artists who have come out of the Victorian age, prove that it was an actual possibility and did realistically happen, even if not a commonality?

Laurele wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: Irving Howe offers a more subtle explanation:

"In her incomparable vibrancy and lovingness, she comes to represent a spiritualized transcendence of chastity. She dies three times, t..."

I do not know that much about the history of Russia but perhaps it is becasue of the cultural dfference bwtween Russiah and England

Silver wrote: "Juanita wrote: "Silver wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "...it is known that women/girls at 16 are capable of being more independent...'

That is because the women and girls of today have been given indepe..."

I'm not an expert on women authors/artists of the 19th century, but from what I understand most of them came from the middle or upper classes. They were genteel, daughters of Oxbridge-educated landowners, business owners, parsons, barristers, and other professionals, even though they might not have that much money. They were pretty well educated for the standards of that age and had been exposed to progressive ideas. Some of them, supported by this kind of background, did become independent writers and artists.

Tess is an itinerant farm laborer with elementary education. Her family is not at the bottom rung of society, but they're not very much above the average rural villagers in terms of income and education. I would argue that it's considerably more difficult for someone like Tess to be independent and knowledgeable, although it's not wholly impossible. Someone of her background is always dependent on and subordinate to their social superiors.

Laurele wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: Irving Howe offers a more subtle explanation:

"In her incomparable vibrancy and lovingness, she comes to represent a spiritualized transcendence of chastity. She dies three times, t..."

Good point Laurele. Perhaps because Dosteovsky draws upon the biblical stories of Mary Magdalen, whom Jesus forgave, so that would be acceptable to any society steeped in christianity. But Hardy appears to compare Tess with Eve, who traditionally represents the fallen, unforgiven woman?

Someone has commented on the 'soap opera' aspects of the novel and I thought they might be interested in this extract from the Introduction to my Wordsworth edition:

'Tess first appeared in the Magazine The Graphic, in illustrated weekly instalments, appealing to a popular readership. Behind it lay Hardy's many years of experience in that mode of publication. The serial form imposes awkward conditions on the writer. A story capable of holding the interest of a large audience over a period of months must be lively, purposeful and relatively uncomplicated. It must begin briskly to command attention and Hardy was always a brilliant starter of a novel. Exciting or entertaining episodes must be evenly distributed, so that no one instalment will fall flat. Ideally each 'number' should end on a note of suspense, pointing the reader forward. Hardy was accustomed to these demands and knew how to meet them. It came naturally to him to deal in striking, self-contained, powerfully visualised episodes no more than a chapter in length. Probably most readers of Hardy recall his work in terms of such scenes. To think of Tess is to remember, for example, the death of Prince, the dance at Trantridge, the baptism of Sorrow....etc' (the rest might be a spoiler)....Not only does the narrative progress at an exhilarating pace, through a series of logical steps but Hardy has set up a thematic contrast that lies at the heart of his conception, and has illustrated his belief that important and even tragic events can derive from the most trivial of causes.'

MadgeUK wrote: "Laurele wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: Irving Howe offers a more subtle explanation:

"In her incomparable vibrancy and lovingness, she comes to represent a spiritualized transcendence of chastity. She die..."

According to Hardy's viewpoint, Tess is a naturally pure woman; she is only immoral according to the 'Christian' moral standards of the time. Dostoevesky's prostitutes were more acceptable because they were presented as repentant Magdalenes. On the contrary, Hardy didn't consider such repentance necessary for Tess, and even deliberately called Tess a pure woman. That must have angered the guardians of public morality because it was a blatant subversion of the prevailing notion of the fallen woman (which was based on their understanding of Christianity).

Sandybanks wrote: According to Hardy's viewpoint, Tess is a naturally pure woman; she is only immoral according to the 'Christian' moral standards of the time. Dostoevesky's prostitutes were more acceptable because they were presented as repentant Magdalenes. On the contrary, Hardy didn't consider such repentance necessary for Tess, and even deliberately called Tess a pure woman. That must have angered the guardians of public morality because it was a blatant subversion of the prevailing notion of the fallen woman (which was based on their understanding of Christianity).

That rings true, Sandybanks. Thanks. I get the distinct feeling that Hardy is setting things up and trying to manipulate us.

MadgeUK wrote: "Someone has commented on the 'soap opera' aspects of the novel and I thought they might be interested in this extract from the Introduction to my Wordsworth edition:

'Tess first appeared in the Ma..."

That was interesting thanks for that background information, and well I can see where the back and forth between Tess and Angel would have built up more suspense and kept things interesting if it was read in episodes like that, rather than reading it all at once.

Laurele wrote: "Sandybanks wrote: According to Hardy's viewpoint, Tess is a naturally pure woman; she is only immoral according to the 'Christian' moral standards of the time. Dostoevesky's prostitutes were more a..."

The book is surely ideological but I don't think that it's manipulative. All fiction that is designed to reflect the author's viewpoint is manipulative, in the sense that the parameters of the story are set up to provide a certain conclusion that supports that author's ideology. Tess is not more manipulative then, say, Les Miserables or War and Peace with their Christian-based ideology. I don't know what Hardy's religious belief was, but he sure didn't agree with the Christian establishment of his time. However, he is still pretty balanced in his criticism; even Angel Clare the Agnostic/Pagan still uses the prevailing double standards in judging Tess.

Tess's mother had not told her anything about sex. Tess is an "innocent" in every sense of the word.

Silver wrote: "Ok there is just something I just have to say, becasue it has been bugging me ever since I read it.

I have heard a lot about this book before reading it, and everyone always talks about Tess be..."

Hi, Silver:

I thought I would share a tidbit of information that will help you out:

Note that Tess often falls asleep just before a terrible incident (the family horse, the rape).

Hardy was probably likewise aware of the provision in English rape law that a sleeping woman was incapable of consenting to a sexual relationship. Hardy removed the reference to spirits after the first edition of the novel. The fact that Tess is asleep when Alec approaches her in the Chase, together with subsequent references to the use of force, suggests that the event in the Chase should be read as a case of rape just as actual Victorian cases were interpreted.

Source: Davis, William A. Jr. "The Rape of Tess: Hardy, English Law, and the Case for Sexual Assault." Nineteenth Century Literature 52.2 (Sept 1997): 221-31.

Patricia wrote: "Silver wrote: "Ok there is just something I just have to say, becasue it has been bugging me ever since I read it.

I have heard a lot about this book before reading it, and everyone always talk..."


That is quite interesting about the law regarding rape and also curious how she does fall asleep directly before both incidents. I did not really think about it before. Perhaps it is Hardy's way of trying to absolve Tess for any possible blame.

Though she feels guilty about the horse, and does display some negligence on her part of the accident happening, she cannot take full reasonability for the event, sense she was not conscious when it happened.

Silver wrote: "Patricia wrote: "Silver wrote: "Ok there is just something I just have to say, becasue it has been bugging me ever since I read it.

I have heard a lot about this book before reading it, and eve..."

Yes, Silver. Hardy wants to explore the plight of women in this novel. The reading public hated it because they saw her as a "fallen woman." But the clue to Hardy's purpose lies in the subtitle--Tess of the d'Urbervilles: A Pure Woman Faithfully Presented. Emphasis on "pure."

Thanks for that insight into the law surrounding rape in Victorian times Patricia. Makes a lot of sense.