European Royalty discussion

I finished The Autobiography of Henry VIII: With Notes by His Fool, Will Somers last night. Like everyone else, I loved it :)

There were a few characters that Margaret George portrayed differently than I've seen before. It made me think about those characterizations that I have taken for granted in the past.
I wondered if they are very widespread, or if they are partially my own creation.

So I thought I would ask a group of people that are educated about these figures - what are your impressions of Henry VIII, his wives and friends? Do you like them or not?

Here's my list - If you think I've left someone important off, feel free to add them :)
Henry VIII
Charles Brandon
Thomas Wolsey
Thomas More
Thomas Cromwell
Catherine of Aragon
Anne Boleyn
Jane Seymore
Anne of Cleves
Katherine Howard
Katherine Parr
Mary Tudor
Elizabeth Tudor
Edward Tudor/King Edward VI

Obviously I've been thinking about this, and I'm excited to answer - so I'll go first :)
It's hard to give a short impression of each of these people when I've read so much about them! I hadn't counted on that..

Henry VIII - Like :) - I think of him as an overall good king who happened to have an obsession with getting a male heir, which caused the vast majority of his problems. I think he was passionate, smart and logical, but that he was dangerously self important and that he could justify anything to himself. He was deeply conflicted about many things, and he was an expert at passing blame.
Charles Brandon - Like :) - Brandon was so charming in life that I think that's passed through history (and fiction!) to charm me today. I think I would have liked him in real life.
Thomas Wolsey - Ambivalent - I can't say I particularly like or dislike Wolsey. I think he served the king well, but that he served himself nearly as well. Nothing wrong with taking care of yourself, but Wolsey seems exceedingly greedy to me.
Thomas More - dislike :( - I don't like martyrs and I think More was angling for that job from the beginning. He seemed damn near as self-important as Henry was, he just justified his actions as God's will.
Thomas Cromwell - Like :) - Actually, I love Cromwell. He seems to have been a political genius, I love all his spying and finagling. I haven't read Wolf Hall yet, but I'm excited to :)
Catherine of Aragon - Like...but not THAT much. I think Catherine was a good Queen and a good mother, but maybe not the best wife. Her piety is a little tiresome to me, and I still think she should have taken Henry's offer to retire to a convent rather than die in misery. I think she could have negotiated for Mary to still be considered legitimate if she had done so.
Anne Boleyn - Like :) - I've bought into the idea of Anne being smart and ambitious and I like her that way. A woman that worked that hard for something is hard for me to dislike! I also think that Anne probably stayed the same after their marriage, and that Henry just tired of her after she gave it up. I can't believe the charges that she slept with all those other men - she was far too smart for that. IMO, she was certainly executed unfairly.
Jane Seymore - Ambivalent - Jane seems too mousy for me to form much of an opinion of her. Plus, it irks me that Henry considered her his "true wife" and was buried beside her simply because she managed to give birth to a son (especially since he tuned out to be so useless!)
Anne of Cleves - Like :) - I don't think Anne was ugly - I think she just displeased the king. I love the fact that she so readily agreed to be the kings sister - smart girl! I love that she was close to the princesses, also.
Katherine Howard - Ambivalent - I like Katherine because she was young and spirited and free. It's endearing to me that she thought she'd get away with being such a hussy. At the same time, I dislike her for being stupid enough to cheat on the king and to eventually wind up getting herself executed.
Katherine Parr - Like...mostly - I like her for being so queen like - she seemed to lend some respectability to the royalty. I like her for bringing the family together. I dislike her for allowing whatever happened between Thomas Seymore and Elizabeth to happen. Certainly it wasn't her fault, but I think she should have been a bit more vigilant than she was.
Mary Tudor - Pity - I feel so badly for Mary as a youth. What a horrible thing - to be loved and cherished and then...not. As a Queen I think she was awful, though still pitiable. She was so damaged! I can't hate her, but I don't like her, either.
Elizabeth Tudor - Like :) - again, profoundly damaged by her parents and her upbringing. Elizabeth was a wonderful queen, though.
Edward Tudor/King Edward VI - Ambivalent - It's tough to have much opinion of poor Edward. I'm interested to see if anyone here does.

BTW...wow, that took a long time!
Hoping at least one or two of you will play along...

Love this...

Henry VIII - Not a fan. I just can't get over the callousness with which he treated his wives and daughters. I hate it when he's portrayed as a loving Grandpa type. He's my villain of the group.

Wolsey - I am a fan. Not sure why.

Cromwell - Did read Wolf Hall, and not a fan. I feel the same way about Cromwell as you do Wolsey. Amazing politician out for his own interests (but who wasn't)?

Brandon: For. He always comes across as likable, charming and fun-loving.

I'm for Anne Boleyn over Queen Catherine. The rest of the wives could go either way. Catherine of Aragon's stubbornness have always rubbed me the wrong way. And I am not entirely convinced she was a virgin at the time of her marriage.

Mary Tudor: Again pity. I can't remember who said it but I like the idea that she's the saddest girl in all of Christendom.

Elizabeth Tudor: I can't imagine not liking Queen Elizabeth. Hard life, but still an amazing reign.

Can I add:

Anne and Catherine's uncle The Duke of Norfolk: hate. What an evil opportunist.

Thomas Seymour: dislike. Both for Marrying Katherine Parr
after the death of Henry and the inappropriate relationship with Elizabeth.

I also feel really sorry for Mary Boleyn and Lady Jane Grey, they seem to always read pathetic to me.

I'm also curious as to what everyone thinks of Henry VIII's parents and brother.

Henry VIII - Mixed. I love young Henry. I love his and Catherine's early relationship. I'm not sure that I care for old Henry, although I love to read about him.

Charles Brandon - Don't really have an opinion. I like Mary (Henry's sister) a lot. I love that she married Charles without permission because she loved him. As for Charles, did he love Mary or just love a princess of England? I'm not sure.

Thomas Wolsey - I tend to dislike him when reading about him, although I'm not sure why. Maybe it's because I really like Anne, and the two of them didn't get along. I feel bad for how things ended for him though.

Thomas More - No real opinion. I'm not a huge fan of martyrs either, so I tend to get annoyed with More, but like with Wosley, I feel bad about how his relationship with Henry ended.

Thomas Cromwell - No real opinion

Catherine of Aragon - Mixed. Like with Henry, I like their early relationship. I feel sorry for how things turned out for her, but I think she was too stubborn for her and Mary's own good. I think she could have saved them both a ton of grief by going into a convent.

Anne Boleyn - Like. I've always liked Anne. I think she was smart. I don't think she was a slut by any means; in fact, she doesn't strike me as a physically passionate person at all (I agree with Mandy - I think she was doomed once she put out - I don't think she could measure up to Henry's fantasies and he got bored quickly). Like Elizabeth, I think she preferred the chase and the flirting to anything else. I think Henry pursued her and she made the best out of the situation. I think she learned a lesson based on how her sister was treated by Henry and Francois (sp?) in France, and she didn't want to be a mistress that could be cast off. Unfortunately, that probably would have been better for her because Henry wouldn't have had to kill her then.

Jane Seymore - Don't much care for. She comes across as mousy and a pawn of her brothers. I think Henry liked her because she was the opposite of Anne. She had the decency to have a son and die before Henry tired of her - I'm sure he was grateful for both!

Anne of Cleves - Like. She was another smart woman. I think she got the best deal by becoming Henry's "sister".

Katherine Howard - Kind of like, but she's just so stupid. How could you not learn a lesson based on what happened to your own cousin? I think if she could have reached Henry that day at Hampton Court that she may have survived. I believed he truly loved her. I get the feeling she had the passion that he was looking for in Anne.

Katherine Parr - Like. She was lucky that Henry didn't kill her, but it's sad how things turned out with Thomas Seymour.

Mary Tudor - Don't really like, but I don't think it's all her fault. I'm sure anyone going through what she went through would be pretty screwed up. It's sad how crazy she was about Philip, and it's sad how Henry treated her. It's sad how she felt the need to burn heretics.

Elizabeth Tudor - I like Elizabeth, but I'm not too interested in reading about her as the others for some reason. Another incredibly smart woman though (even from an early age).

Edward Tudor/King Edward VI - I like him, but he was as much as a religious fanatic as Mary was. I think my opinion is mostly based on his portraits (which is crazy, I know) - I've seen two of them in person and for some reason they really touched me. I feel sorry for him being sickly and dying so young, but I don't think he would have made a good monarch for England at that time. I think Elizabeth's religious tolerance was much better.

Loved reading all your comments- and agreed with almost all of them. I think though , that Katherine of Aragon is getting a raw deal by being thought of in rather modern terms. She didn't just choose to be stubborn and diffcult, she truly and honestly, to her soul believed she was God's and Henry's anointed Queen and that marriage was an indissoluble sacrament. In addition she was, as you know , the daughter of two monarchs - one of them the formidable Isabella of Castile, so was brought up in the unshakable belief in the the rights of kings

In addition, she would have had no faith in Henry honouring Mary's right ( again God-given) to the crown once she was declared illegitimate. She believed him led astray by evil counsellors, and she would not have dared leave Mary alone without her.

I think she personally would have loved to go to a convent and be free of it all, but she could not have the luxury of such a choice, given her unshakeable committemnt to what she thought was right.

I think to the end of her days she believed Henry would see the light and all would well for Mary.

Could't agree more about Katherine Howard though . How much more stupid could you possibly be ......

I don't think Elizabeth 1st was 'damaged' , I think she learned very well from her terrifying childhood and charted the almost impossibly diffculty task of reigning alone, despite being besieged on all sides by counsellors wanting her to marry.
I think she was a very clever and astute woman and possibly the best monarch England ever had.

AND she had the totally over-romanticised Mary Queen of Scots plotting away like mad all the time trying to raise armies to overthrow her and have herself declared Queen and to have Catholicism and religious extremism restored etc.

Oh fun! I like reading what other people have to say. Sara, we should discuss Anne Boleyn sometime. Here are my responses:

Henry VIII -- I find him so frustrating! For the most part, I don't like him. He was so brutish, but at the same time, he was too easily controlled by those around him. I can forgive some of that when he was a very young king, but he was already in middle age by the time he signed Anne Boleyn’s death sentence. I really don’t have much sympathy for him as a person or a king.

Charles Brandon – I like him for the most part. He did plenty of questionable things, but who doesn’t? I’m looking forward to reading a book about his last wife, Catherine Willoughby, to get more insight.

Thomas Wolsey – What a snake! I find him interesting but certainly not sympathetic.

Thomas More – I feel very ambivalent about More. I think it’s because he’s a love-him-or-hate-him guy. Some historians think he was the second coming; others think he was cruel and horrible. I can’t make up my mind just yet.

Thomas Cromwell – I find him utterly fascinating. He was calculating and brilliant but obviously very cold and self-serving. Being on his bad side was a recipe for disaster. I almost find him sympathetic, but then I count up the number of people he had offed. Interesting guy, but morality wasn’t his strong suit.

Catherine of Aragon – She interests me, and I think was a very good person. I tend to doubt she was actually still a virgin when Arthur died, but she definitely did not deserve the end she received. I don’t blame her stubbornness. If someone told me I’d been having an incestuous relationship with my husband for 20 years, I’d be pretty stubborn.

Anne Boleyn – I love her! I’ve been poring over every Anne biography I can get my hands on lately. She was sharp, witty, clever, and strong. At the same time, she made plenty of mistakes and could be cruel. Her mouth got her in trouble and is likely what killed her. I like that she knew her position was precarious but did not let other people control her. I guess I find her quite relatable. She was unforgivingly herself and willing to do anything for what she believed in.

Jane Seymour – I don’t have a good enough feel for her. She is always portrayed as docile and sweet, but how true could that be when she was at least somewhat instrumental in the death of her predecessor? I wish we knew more about her. What I do know bores me a bit.

Anne of Cleves – I don’t think I’ve read enough about her. For the most part, I don’t find her interesting, but I am reserving judgment. She certainly got the best lot of all the queens.

Katherine Howard – Again, I need to read more about her, but I’m still neutral on her. She was clearly not very careful and didn’t make good choices. She was young, but Anne Boleyn was her cousin. She had to know better, which makes her infidelity all the more interesting. Was she in love or just reckless?

Katherine Parr – I like that she was strong, but why did she have to take up with Seymour after the king’s death? He was slime. I like her relationship with Mary and Elizabeth, though.

Mary Tudor – She did some terrible things as queen, but I really feel sympathy for her. What a horrible childhood! I wish she had emerged more independently minded. Her reign seemed pretty hideous.

Elizabeth Tudor – My love for her mother makes me wish I was more interested in Elizabeth I. I intend to read more about her before I decide. I respect her, but I’ve yet to find a lot of personality there.

Edward Tudor/King Edward VI – He was just a boy when he died, so I don’t really know much about him. He was a puppet king for the most part. He should not have signed Mary and Elizabeth out of the succession, but it’s hard to fault a dying teenager too much for giving in to pressure.

Sara - Good call, wondering how people feel about Henry VIII's parents and brother.
I, personally, was VERY interested in Henry VII and Elizabeth Woodville...until I read a couple of books about them. They both came off as incredibly boring.
As far as Arthur goes...
I often wonder what type of king he would have been. History would have been far different, that's for sure! He seems to have been the antithesis of Henry, and he was trained to be king...
The little we know about him, I like. I think he would have been a good leader.

Sara W - I was surprised to read that you like Anne over Catherine! I really figured you for a Catherine of Aragon fan.
I love your assessment of Katherine Howard (in my head I always call her "little kitty howard" - how strange is that!?)
Anyway, I think you're probably right, she was sort of like Anne 2.0 - with the passion Henry was looking for and none of the lip!

Barbara - you don't think Elizabeth I was damaged? How could she not be? Her father had her mother beheaded. She lived in alternating luxury and poverty, depending on how Henry thought of her at the moment - never knowing when things would change. Then she had to suffer through Mary's reign, including a long imprisonment and lots of health problems...
All those things just scream "damaged" to me!

Brigid - I felt the same about Elizabeth until Misfit recommended Legacy. It made me like her more than any other book has. You should give it a try :)

Mandy said " Barbara - you don't think Elizabeth I was damaged? How could she not be? Her father had her mother beheaded. She lived in alternating luxury and poverty, depending on how Henry thought of her at the moment - never knowing when things would change. Then she had to suffer through Mary's reign, including a long imprisonment and lots of health problems...
All those things just scream "damaged" to me"

I think that is too modern a take on it all Mandy. I didn't say she hadn't suffered , of course she did, but 'damaged' is a 20th century individualist notion and not, I think, as relevant to Tudor times and certainly not to a monarch of Liz 1's ilk.

It all refers to an era and place and general ambience we can barely imagine . This is, after all, a time when people took their kids to public hangings and watched animals being tortured for fun. I'm not even judging that in terms of good or bad either , (tho' God knows I'm glad not to be living in it!) Rather I'm saying that it was time when the indvidual was a less important unit than now, and that people lived in far more fatalistic way, accepting the ( to us) most amazingly awful things as God's will or because of their place in society etc

Ha ha, Mandy, yeah, I certainly rave about Plaidy's Catherine of Aragon book enough to make it seem that I prefer her to Anne! I've always loved Anne, even though I don't really know why. That's why Anne's picture is the picture for this group - I'm just constantly drawn to her. I'm sure I have more books about her than any other royal. Part of me wants to prefer Catherine because she was so good, and I think I'd like to be the type of person who values that over everything else, but I just can't. :) Maybe when I'm older and have been married for 20 years I'll feel differently and start to prefer Catherine since I'd be able to relate to her and her struggles more.

I agree with Brigid as to Elizabeth - for how interested I am in Anne, I wish I was more interested in Elizabeth. I'll have to check out Legacy.

Barbara,
I agree with much of what you said - certainly Elizabeth grew up in a time when people did (what we would consider to be) crazy, terrible things.
And my use of the word "damaged" - in fact, even the idea that she was damaged - is definitely a modern thought.
I just don't think that changes the truth of it.

Every major even in our lives changes us. It teaches us something, effects how we react to the world. It's the basic process of learning and growth, cause and effect.
Simple things like "if I touch the hot stove it will burn me"
and...
complex things like "marriage is a danger to women" or "a monarch should not trust too many people"

I don't believe you can live through all that Elizabeth did and NOT be effected by it. Watching her father reign, being alternately loved and hated by him, HAD to have effected her in some way.
I maintain that the effect was damaging.

Even if Elizabeth believed that all those things that happened to her were "Gods Will" - which I'm sure that she did - they still effected her.

Sara,
I also liked The Secret Diary of Anne Boleyn. Not so much while I was reading it, but it's one I remember.
At the time the inaccuracy and the liberties of it made me nuts! But, now when I think of it I feel like it gave a fun insight to how Elizabeth MIGHT have felt about some things. It has as much Anne as it does Elizabeth in it, so might enjoy it because of that, too :)

Mandy, I also really liked The Secret Diary of Anne Boleyn!! For some reason the inaccuracies didn't bother me as much as they can in some other books.

Ok, here's my take:

Henry VIII: I feel very often when talking to Tudor aficionados and fanatics that I am the only advocate of Henry. Very often Henry gets blamed for things that he didn't orchestrate (Anne Boleyn's execution for example). I also believe that he suffered from some sort of brain injury after his jousting fall and that could have contributed to some of the personality change that occurred in him. I actually like Henry. He brought about some of the best changes for England (like the Navy for example). I think too often his failures with his wives are more looked at then his accomplishments. That being said, I don't agree with everything that he did and do realize that he could be a cruel person at times.

Charles Brandon: Ah... I've always had a historical crush on Brandon. He seems to have been a pretty cool guy for the most part. And I like his nose in his portrait with Mary :)

Thomas Wolsey: I personally don't like him. I think he could be a snake. But then again, he was just looking out for himself. He didn't endear himself to anyone really though. He knew how to make enemies.

Thomas More: I agree with everything stated above. Martyrs bother me and I feel like he was going against Henry because he wanted to become a martyr.

Thomas Cromwell: A very shrewd, incredibly smart man. I think he was possibly evil. He had his fingers in everything. And he was possibly the main instigator of the plot against Anne.

Katherine of Aragon: I go back and forth on her. I agree that her piousness gets tiresome! But I feel really bad for what she went through.

Anne: I go back and forth with her too. I think she was incredibly intelligent. I love reading about women like her. I think she is my favorite wife just because of how controversial she is to myself!!

Jane Seymour: I get so easily annoyed by her. I feel a lot like Anne in this respect!!

Anne of Cleves: I want to know more about her. I think I like her based off of my limited knowledge.

Katheryn Howard: O boy. I really like reading about her. I feel so bad for her and yet at the same time what the heck was she thinking??? Mandy I call her "little Kitty Howard" in my head a lot too!!! Weird, huh??

Catherine Parr: I think I like her. I don't like what she did with Thomas Seymour (as seems to be the general consensus throughout huh?).

Mary Tudor: I feel bad for little Mary, but I can't sympathize with her when she becomes queen. I've tried to see things how she might have and I just can't. I think it might be because I'm not very religious and she was.

Elizabeth: I don't know as much about her reign as I would like. I think that she was "damaged" also. But then again, so was Mary. The two had pretty similar childhoods (with the exception of Elizabeth's mother getting executed and Mary's not).

Edward: His portraits tug at my heartstrings (good cliche huh? LOL). I think it could be because of how young he was when he died and how few things he was allowed to do in his short life.

Edward leads me to Lady Jane Grey, who I feel should be included. She was an amazing young lady. If she could have lived longer who knows what she could have accomplished!!! Alison Weir's book Innocent Traitor was one of the most intense books I've ever read, mostly because of the last couple of chapters. As petty as it seems, I feel like I can't forgive Mary for executing her. But what other choice did she have?? And it was five hundred years ago so my forgiveness of Mary matters little. I just feel that she should have been left in the Tower for a time (although Elizabeth didn't really like or trust her sisters did she?).

I am reading the latest book about the Tudors.
I thought I knew most of the Tudor facts -who,what,when,where,what........

But I was very surprised to discover Henry's older sister Margaret had her second marriage annulled so she could marry again for the third time. Margaret's annulment apparently happened very easily.

Margaret Tudor's annulment happened a few years before Henry decided to divorce Catherine.
The part that surprised me the most was Henry's reaction to his sister's remarriage. He was extremely angry at her, because he considered marriage a sacrament and not something that could be undone.

Besides his hypocrisy regarding marriage;
I can now understand a little better his frustration when he was unable to get an annulment for his own marriage.

Hi guys! I'm new to English Historical Ficition. When I first go into college I was intrested in African American Historical Romances by Beverly Jenkins.
So far my Impressions of Henery VIII has been that he is selfish and bratty and put his own wants and needs above those of his people and Wives. My opinion may be based on more fiction than fact because it mostly comes from the tv show Tudors. Also the Boylen girls I dont think I should call them what I really think ill just say so far I dont like them.