You'll love this one...!! A book club & more discussion

Hi all.

I started this book early which I wouldn't have done if I knew I was going to race through it but I just couldn't put it down.

I found it to be both sad and uplifting at the same time. I also found it to be very educational. I'll admit I never knew much about life in China before Mao or even the early years of the revolution.
But on reading this it is easy to see why the peasants would originally welcome the Communist Party afterall who wouldn't welcome a political party that promised to make everybody equal and end poverty and oppression.

Read this one before so will join in with the discussion :) this book was the first book I read about China and I loved it.

Like Jenny, this was one of the first books I read about China and like Karen, I've finished it. Actually, I think it's a good idea for the discussion leader to start early, but my reason was that although I enjoyed it when it was first published, I knew it was quite long. However, I'd forgotten how gripping it was. My review is here: http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/....

Finding this book fascinating! I'll never complain about my aching feet again! I find the names difficult to read but trying to pronounce them as best I can. Will come back when I've read more.

Cecily wrote: "Like Jenny, this was one of the first books I read about China and like Karen, I've finished it. Actually, I think it's a good idea for the discussion leader to start early, but my reason was that ..."

Cecily, how do you post your link to your GR review?

Shannon wrote: "how do you post your link to your GR review? "

1. Go to My Books.
2. Put the book title in the search box for your books.
3. In the list you get, click View (at the far right).
4. Copy the URL of the review page.
5. Paste the URL here.

Cecily wrote: "Shannon wrote: "how do you post your link to your GR review? "

1. Go to My Books.
2. Put the book title in the search box for your books.
3. In the list you get, click View (at the far right).
4. ..."

thanks

Has anyone else found the book's conflicted identity (a biography or a more general political history text book) annoying at times?

One side-effect is that while it feels very detailed, some hugely important events (the Long March being the most obvious) are barely mentioned because they didn't directly affect Jung Chang's family. Conversely, at times the quantity of political analysis starts to feel out of place in a family narrative.

Helloooo.... is anyone out there?

I agree. I know that the family were not directly affected by the Long March but as with the rest of the Chinese people it would have had an indirect affect on their lives and I think more should have been said about it.

Yes I have read that book and really learned a lot about the culture of China and the struggles that young woman had to go through to move from a worker's party ideals to ideals about freedom.

Reading the details of how the Communist party and especially Mao, persuaded, bamboozled, tortured, lied and kept control of such a huge country over decades, it is a spectacular (but awful) achievement.

It's easy to assume it wouldn't be possible on the same scale today. For all that China tries to control access to the media and net, it's a very leaky bucket. And then one thinks of North Korea...

So what are the lessons to be learned, both for budding dictators and citizens who want to prevent them gaining power?

I think for budding dictators one of the best lessons is to divide and conquor, make people believe that if they play by your rules then nothing bad will happen to their families and if you inform on anybody who complains about or is critical of you rule then they will be rewarded.

I'm not that familiar with Chinese social history but I find the oppression, particularly of women, fascinating - glad I grew up in a democracy.
One word I've used for years is 'kowtow' and now I know its significance! Really enjoying the read!

Cecily wrote: "Has anyone else found the book's conflicted identity (a biography or a more general political history text book) annoying at times?"

Quite the opposite actually. So many books on modern history are distant and hardly accessible, whereas Wild Swans manages to succeed in being both educational/informative and gripping with the real life story of woman in a time of transformation.

When I'd finished Wild Swans I read Red Star over China: The Classic Account of the Birth of Chinese Communism to try to engage with the sympathetic image of Mao and found it to be a similar juxtaposition of styles. Looking through the Chinese section of my local bookshop reveals something similar, there are hundreds of books on Communist China and the vast majority are first person accounts.

Is this down to the runaway success of Wild Swans, or does everyone have a story to tell about modern China?

Probably a combination of both. Afterall when something becomes a success every publisher thinks that they need to publish a similar book, add to that a population of one billion and there are going to be a lot of stories to be told

Emma wrote: "Is this down to the runaway success of Wild Swans, or does everyone have a story to tell about modern China?"

I'd agree with Karen that it's a bit of both. In fact I've seen criticism of Wild Swans on the basis that "anyone could have written it", which seems a bit mean because firstly not everyone has, secondly each family's story is slightly or very different, and finally, I think that overall, she's done a pretty good job.

This book is subtitled "Three Daughters of China" and I wonder why. It implies it's primarily about (and hence of more interest to) women, which I don't think is the case - but maybe that's because I'm a woman.

Obviously Jung Chang is female, and her mother and grandmother are significant figures, but her father is at least as important a character in the book (and to me, the most interesting) and whilst much of the story is domestic rather than battlefield, there is a fair amount of brutality, graphically described.

So, has anyone else got views on whether or not it is a very female-oriented book? It would be especially interesting to hear the views of any men reading it (Patrick)?

I'd agree I don't think it is a female-oriented book but that could be because I'm a woman. Obviously that would be the impression you would get from the subtitle but I think that is misleading as the male characters are just as important as so much of what happens to the women in this book is driven by and decided by men.

Jung Chang's father was a kind and loving man, yet his love for the party often took priority over love (and practical help) for his wife and family.

It was such an extraordinary time and place in history that I find it very hard to reconcile those facts, yet his family did. For all that JC mentions all the things her mother could never forgive him for, they endured terrible things to stay together.

Is that love, denial, a form or abuse and could you imagine putting up with it?

Cecily wrote: "Jung Chang's father was a kind and loving man, yet his love for the party often took priority over love (and practical help) for his wife and family.

It was such an extraordinary time and place i..."

While to our eyes it may seem like a form of abuse and that her mother was in denial clearly this relationship however you want to describe it worked for them afterall as you say they endured terrible things to stay together and I can't imagine doing that with somebody you don't love.

Cecily wrote: "It would be especially interesting to hear the views of any men reading it "

My partner read it 10 years or so ago, and said that they should do two covers for it, one for woman and one for men as men are turned off by the "Three Daughters" subtitle. As I recall, he said it sounded like a Greer style feminist book which it really isn't.

My Dad read it not so long ago too and loved it, but then he'll read the back of rice packets happily...

Karen wrote: "While to our eyes it may seem like a form of abuse and that her mother was in denial clearly this relationship however you want to describe it worked for them afterall as you say they endured terrible things to stay together and I can't imagine doing that with somebody you don't love."

I always got the impression that her father's insanity actually started before the Cultural Revolution, as I recall when he was courting Jung's mother he was very romantic. It seemed to me as he got promoted higher in the party his mind started to become unhinged.

I honestly think that were it not for Jung's grandmother the marriage would have collapsed at a much earlier date. He did seem to gather himself however when he was imprisioned, almost as if the pressure of his job was relieved and he could collect his thoughts.

His letter which began "Please accept my apologies which come a lifetime too late" has stuck with me for years.

Emma wrote: "I always got the impression that her father's insanity actually started before the Cultural Revolution, ..."

Aw shucks, now I'm going to have to reread it. LOL

Although the father putting the party before his family is not something I could accept (having been brought up in such a different culture and political system), I just saw that as a marker of his faith in the party, just as religious people sometimes put duty to God before duty to family. I didn't notice signs of madness before the cultural revolution, so next time I read it, I'll have to keep a look out.

Emma wrote: "were it not for Jung's grandmother the marriage would have collapsed at a much earlier ..."

That's an interesting point, and I think you're probably right. Although there were also wider societal pressures keeping them together, without the grandmother's practical help, the family probably would have fallen apart.

Finally, thanks for confirming my suspicion that men might be put off by the subtitle, but not by the actual content of the book.

I admit I didn't notice the signs of insanity before the cultural revolution and when I reread this i will be looking out for them.

Having been brought up to believe that family is all important I had a hard time with the father putting party before family although I know he wasn't the only one and it was considered a bad thing to think your family was more important than the party. That your loyalty should be to the party above all else.

Karen wrote: "Having been brought up to believe that family is all important..."

Although I agree, many do not, though such an attitude is more usually associated with religion than political parties. For example, I seem to recall that Jesus castigated a potential follower who put family duties first (burying his father).

I would imagine that if you don't grow up with that mindset then it is difficult to understand but it is also very easy to judge someone's actions when nobody is putting you in the same position. If we believed that passionately about a political or religious ideal then who is to say we wouldn't have made the same choices.

I think overall what I learned from reading this is to be grateful for the things that we tend to take for granted - freedom of speech,freedom of thought actually just freedom in general. Also I'm grateful that in living my life nobody is making me choose between family and state.

And most especially, freedom to live with your husband/wife/partner/children (assuming you want to!).

Freedom to live your life the way you want to and with whoever you want to, as long as you're not hurting anybody else.