Terminalcoffee discussion

Interesting story on NPR this morning on college wait lists...

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/st...

I wonder, though, how much longer traditional four year colleges will remain the norm.

Also, I think there's a growing gap between those who can go to college and those who can't, financially, etc. as well as in terms of preparation. If you went to shitty high school college is going to be harder for you, you know?

What do you think? Will college be necessary in 20 years? Are the liberal arts as important as some think, or is a job training model the way to go? Or both? What do you think?

I never was on a college wait list, by the way. I went to shitty enough colleges that they were happy to get my tuition checks:)

I think that the way Tech schools have evolved that they are going to be important in the future.

I agree Barb, student teaching is way more useful than sitting in a class room. On the other hand I do want engineers to know how to do structural calculations before I drive over the bridge they designed. Most of accounting could easily be an apprenticeship, but tax law and application is a whole different animal.

I think it was originally to make a more well rounded individual. There are plenty of people that get hired in the work place in a field that isn't related to their major, but a BS/BA degree assures they have had some background in a variety of subjects.

No knowledge is useless, says the liberal arts college graduate.

I have a B.A. in Political Science and French (double major, just for fun), and while I don't actively use either of those degrees, I have a better understanding of the world thanks to them.

I think there are already different routes for different professions, Barb. Universities have different colleges, most of which are not liberal arts ones, I believe.

And there are Vocational Technical schools for getting specific skills, and that's a great way to go if you want to be a chef, for example.

BunWat wrote: "I also think that its valid to want to be educated just to be educated, not as a passport to a particular job..."

I wholly agree.
During the reign of the blessed Margaret Thatcher, "recreational" adult evening classes were abolished in favour only of those that brought formal qualifications, useful in gaining employment. This was never reversed and is a variety of philistinism.
I sometimes find myself in other countries, where people (in railway ticket offices, for example)speak several languages, where politicians gain credibility by participating in the arts, and I hang my head at the boorishness of my own nation. Here, in the UK,to admit to an enjoyment of opera (for example) is to be open to an accusation of boasting.
Education is of course important for its own sake.

Jackie "the Librarian" wrote: "No knowledge is useless, says the liberal arts college graduate.

I have a B.A. in Political Science and French (double major, just for fun), and while I don't actively use either of those degre..."

That's funny - I have a double major Poli Sci and Spanish. And I agree that they provide a nice base.

BunWat wrote: "I also think that its valid to want to be educated just to be educated, not as a passport to a particular job."

Exactly! When I went to college, I had no idea what my eventual occupation would be. My mom had told me for several years that the biggest thing I could learn at school would be "how to learn." I think my mom is pretty smart.

Of course, in today's political environment, the opinion that education can be good in its own right, rather than just being career training, classifies me as elitist.

I don't think the 4-year model is going away soon. I see a lot of articles pushing for a three-year bachelor's degree - it's about saving money and squaring off some of those useless rounded edges. Mostly it's about saving money. People can round their edges in many ways, I think is becoming part of the mainstream thought. And, while I agree with that, I also agree with the notion of cultural literacy and a common core of knowledge that makes you a better citizen. Most of that last part, in my opinion, comes almost exclusively from "soft" majors - liberal arts, humanities, etc.

Even the community college model is giving way to four-year degrees. our entire community college system in the State of Florida has in the past couple of years become the "State College System." They offer a few four-year degrees, siphon money from the state university system, and voila, a college is born. But, here at least, always on the 4-year model.

I love your post, Youndyc. Two terms you used are near and dear to me.

Cultural Literacy is the title of a book by E.D. Hirsch, Jr. that spells out exactly what that term means.

Hirsch's book was written in the late 1980s and, in the '90s, the

Barb wrote: "Let me re-phrase.
How much of a 3 or 4 year curriculum could be scrapped due to being irrelevant to the degree? It's all good and fine to round out your understanding of the world if that's what ..."

Barb, did you go through the Canadian system? Because I applied to both Canadian and American schools, and the whole process felt different for each. In Ontario it felt like more pressure to pick a program and direction early, and on choosing based on an academic program rather than the overall school experience. I don't regret running for the border to get a liberal arts education at all.

Phil, I'm familiar with Cultural Literacy - I read it in high school, but have not revisited it since. it's interesting to me what a lingering legacy that book has had. I'm interested in the Core Knowledge school concept - I'm not familiar with that at all.

In my high school, we had an english program loosely based on that old Great Books idea.

I wasn't trying to be dismissive at all. I'm sorry if it sounded that way.

I just remember getting herded into the cafeteria with all the other graduating students and told to fill out the form and check off three universities I was interested in, and how it felt like a horrible way to make a big decision.

Phil wrote: "I love your post, Youndyc. Two terms you used are near and dear to me.

Cultural Literacy is the title of a book by E.D. Hirsch, Jr. that spells out exactly what that term means.

Hirsch's book wa..."

I'm not a Core Knowledge fan, but to each his own. If it's workin' for you, great, Phil. One of the advantages of charter school is the inherent choice for families. I think I remember you said your kids went to a charter so maybe you don't see the public schools around you as viable. Core Knowledge is much too limited of a approach, from my eyes, but good educators can massage Hirsch's mistakes (e.g. focusing mostly on dead white folks and inert facts) to put together a good school. Teachers are more important than curriculum.

RandomAnthony wrote: "Teachers are more important than curriculum."
I agree wholeheartedly. I also think there are skills that are far more important than most of the facts conveyed. Like learning to write well. I have friends who never had to write an essay in high school, and they struggled tremendously through college.

Why? Successful is successful no matter the level of education.

Barb wrote: "...based on the general vibe of this topic, I'm pretty sure that there will be at least a few (most likely un-expressed) negative opinions aimed in my direction after revealing that little tid-bit of information."

Not from me.

I was a hiring manager in my last job, and had to deal with other managers who wanted to make a CS degree a prerequisite for a job. I had to remind them that some of our best employees were those either without a degree, or with one in a different area.

I agreed that a degree showed that someone was willing/able to see something through to completion, but I tried to convince them to leave room for those who had taken an alternate path.

There were people in unrelated jobs who demonstrated every day the traits that I was looking for in a hire. They were driven to excel at what they did, they had a fantastic work ethic, and they were clear thinkers. Having a degree (more specifically a technical one) was not an issue for me. Give me a smart, dedicated person and I can teach them technology. Those other qualities? Not so easily taught.

Two of our best employees were pulled from other careers. One had been a shoe salesperson, the other a secretary.

After I left, it took the remaining managers only six months to insert the degree requirement in the policy (sigh).

Can I just use a squirt gun instead of a sharp stick?

Barb wrote: "Jim wrote: "Can I just use a squirt gun instead of a sharp stick?"

As long as the water doesn't come from Sally's office ... or Gus's drain."

Deal.

Barb - what kind of company is it? I think it sounds like a dream job!

I know in England colleges are also geared to a profession. After the equivalent of the American high school, students have to choose their field of study.

Personally I loved my liberal arts studies, and appreciated the prerequisites because they expanded my mind before settling down for a major. In my case, I wanted to go into bio-chemistry, but thanks to the science requirements, learned that I didn't have the right temperament to succeed in that field.

The rare days when I work from home I have to work ten times harder than I do in the office to justify having been allowed to work from home.

BunWat wrote: "I think about how Colorado mining towns in the 1800's had opera houses and my goodness how that art form has fallen from being totally popular culture..."
Absolutely. It seems opera was popular in 19th century England among all social classes. In my native country, in the mining towns of Yorkshire, colliery brass bands would often send a representative to the opera house in Leeds to write down the latest tunes as they were being sung on the stage. Thus they could be transcribed and rearranged for brass instruments. (Mozart famously did the same at the Vatican,)
My belief is that round 1900-1920, there was a moral panic among the intelligentsia that the working classes were getting to understand and appreciate the art of their betters. So poetry, music, theatre etc were made deliberately difficult and inaccessible to stop this undesirable development. This, combined with the devastation of the Great War and mass unemployment rather knocked on the head the working class interest in art.
We now reap the harvest.

I think we also reap the harvest in the reductions in school budgets for music and art. It's hard to understand either without context, or without any sort of enthusiasm instilled at an early age.

BunWat wrote: "I agree with this, also I think that it wasn't just the intelligensia, but also social climbers and the newly rich who wanted to distance themselves from the working class and associate themselves with the aristocracy. I know for example that women of the Astor and Rockefeller clans deliberately sought to discourage the hoi polloi from attending the Metropolitan Opera, lobbying to raise ticket prices, confine people who weren't members of "society" to attending only certain days of the week, etc.
"

Interesting since they are now so desperate to appeal to a larger audience.