Victorians! discussion

This post is for those of us who have finished the book. Please note that there will be spoilers in this thread so try not to read until you are done.

I loved this book and finished it in about five days. It is incredibly readable, fun and thought provoking. I really had no idea I would enjoy it as much as I did. However, Lord Henry was really beginning to annoy me towards the end. It felt to me like he just enjoys hearing himself talk and much of what he says was beginning to feel meaningless, especially when juxtaposed with Dorian's experience. Lord Henry just likes to stir the pot and seemed incredibly shallow to me. He really missed what was truly going on with Dorian. Not a very good judge of character.

ive finished it-very quick read. mixed feelings. didnt enjoy it at first but now ive finished it and i have reskimmed through it im starting to be more charmed with it.

The book left me with several questions im still pondering. Was victorian morality too stifling and conflicting? did it inevitably encourage such rebellion? and How much did Oscar reveal of himself in dorian?

A book that leaves me thinking can only be good in my eyes.

I finished the book over a week ago, and I am still not sure how I feel about. I too have mixed emotions. Lord Henry had the best lines of the novel. I had such high hopes for Dorian when we first met him in the novel, but Lord Henry (who seemed to me like the devil on Dorian's shoulder) easily corrupted him. I thought the novel moved a little too slowly for me in some parts, but I did enjoy Lord Henry's appearances.

Has anyone read Andre Gide's _The Immoralist_ lately? Lord Henry's musings on experience(good or bad) for the sake of experience in the middle of chapter 3 (I think it was there) reminded me of some parts of Gide's book, but I think I have to reread it to really draw out the similarities. The introduction to my edition mentions that Wilde knew and dazzled the young Gide. The most fascinating point the intro makes (in the Signet Classics ed. btw, written by Gary Schmidgall)is that the novel is an anticipation of Existential philosophy with it's emphasis on individual experience and responsibility for fashioning one's self and moral responsibility for one's actions. So, Sartre: a Wilde fan?

Thanks for those insights Audrey. Sartre is certainly one of Wilde's heirs.

Gea wrote: "I loved this book and finished it in about five days. It is incredibly readable, fun and thought provoking. I really had no idea I would enjoy it as much as I did. However, Lord Henry was really..."

I think Dorian also felt his words were becoming meaningless. Lord Henry is not a good judge of character because he looked at life externally, disregarding feeling. Life was like a play to him and he enjoyed observing all the chaos involved.

Gea and Jamie, I'm with you re. Lord Henry. To sum it up, a bore and a boor.

I found the ending fascinating, and melodramatic as well. Dorian kills his picture, and it becomes as it was while he takes on all of the physical traits that he had avoided during his life. It appears the truth won out in the end - the truth of who and what Dorian Gray really was.

I did find parts of this book disturbing and I wonder - what would we all be like if we really could avoid the physical impact of aging, and life's experiences?

Kay wrote: "...what would we all be like if..."

Don't we see some of this in the extreme ways in which celebrities and others try to avoid ageing? Eventually their botox ops and the like make them appear like a 'killed' Dorian Gray picture. Growing old gracefully, without the aid of extreme cosmetics, seems something people are less and less willing to do:(.

I have to admit that I absolutely love this book... and Lord Henry! He seems to me to be experimenting on Dorian, seeing the limits of his influence on someone so malleable. I'm just as fond of Dorian, though... What fascinates me is the fact that he repeatedly had the opportunity to "repent", but was psychologically unable to face the things that he'd done while conscious of their cruelty, and immediately relapsed (think Amon Goeth, as portrayed in Schindler's List).

Also, has anyone else noticed that Dorian's name is a gay joke? Wilde invented the name "Dorian", I'd assume, based on the ancient race of kings, the Dorian race, whose distinguishing feature was their pride in their homosexuality...

Ali wrote: "I have to admit that I absolutely love this book... and Lord Henry! He seems to me to be experimenting on Dorian, seeing the limits of his influence on someone so malleable.

Good point Ali. It like Henry says things just to see what effect they have on Dorian. Do you think Henry himself led a hedonistic lifestyle and followed his own advce? we never really see how henry lives?

It's true, that Lord Henry seems to be able to still go about in polite society and doesn't have rumors following him. He definitely enjoys corrupting Dorian, but maybe it's for the pure psychological interest in watching it play out rather than his own enjoyment of corrupt pastimes? Does he say scandalous things mainly to see their effect and not really follow through himself? That seems to be Basil's assessment of his character, but Basil proves to be a poor judge. We only get one or two peeks inside Henry's head. Other than that, he seems to be there only to get Dorian's ball rolling. I think Sybil Vane was the same, more a device to bring Dorian out than an actual fleshed-out character. I think unlike someone like Henry James, Wilde's real interest lay less in character-study and more in the relationship between art and life, how they intersect and influence each other. The characters are more like archetypes, like in a fairy tale. Even Dorian is "Innocence Corrupted" rather than a character with real psychological depth like Isabel Archer (Portrait of a Lady), or a Hardy character.

Oh my, Ali, is that true about the name Dorian? If so, brilliant move on Wilde's part. From what I know of his actual life, Wilde was quite scandalous for the time. He did not do much to hide his homosexuality, at a time where people seemed to think any kind of sexuality a forbidden topic (as if it didn't occur if it wasn't discussed!).

Audrey, I think you make some great points. Wilde definitely seemed more into art imitating life, and vice versa, and using literature to mock society and publish satiric accounts of life. What is beauty? What is art? I can see Wilde enjoying dinner parties where those questions are the prime topic of conversation.

I just finished this book and I just have to say that I loved it, and thought the ending was brillaint!

This was my second time through the book; the ending was one part I remembered clearly. I had a very claustrophobic feeling all through my reading, imagining it as being caught in a musty old velvet bag which smelled of stale opium, roses, and dankness. I know that Wilde was living under intolerable pressure as a homosexual in a society deadly in its homophobia. It seems clear to me that Wilde also had strong Christian roots. I know from my experiences living in current society that the struggle in such situations can be mortal in itself. The cynicism of Lord Henry, the hidden nature of Dorian's sins (and the naming of them as sins), and Dorian's ultimate despair showed me a place of struggle that I find deadening to look at. There are exits now; I find limited to no usefulness in looking deeply, in fiction, at any rate, into what was then a doorless trap.