Victorians! discussion

For discussion - chapters 6-10.

I have to say one of the things I really like about Dorian is the way in which, in spite of his friendship with Lord Henry, and how much he delights in Henry's views, and his admiration for Henry, he still keeps very much his own mind about certain things.

I was worried at first that he would become "corrupted" by Lord Henry and become a sort of portage of him, and allow Lord Henry to sort of dictate to him.

But with is desire to marry Sibyl and his feelings for her, he stands up to Lord Henry and proves he is still capable of acting according to his own wishes.

Though I am not entirely sure of the marriage with Sibyl will ultimately prove to be a good idea. With the allusion to Juliet at the introduction of their relationship, one cannot help but feel as if things are setting up to go horribly wrong in the end.

And I think Dorian is a bit naive about Lord Henry. With his views being what they are, one cannot help but thinking that it would in fact be a bad idea for Dorian to introduce Henry to the beautiful women whom he loves.

I do not think Dorian is going to like what happens if Lord Henry does end up admiring Sibyl in the way that he does.

In these chapters I really started seeing Basil and Lord Henry as good and bad angels trying to sway Dorian to their respective ways of thinking. Like in Marlowe's Dr. Faustus or the old Tom and Jerry cartoons.

Caeliban - Mike wrote: "In these chapters I really started seeing Basil and Lord Henry as good and bad angels trying to sway Dorian to their respective ways of thinking. Like in Marlowe's Dr. Faustus or the old Tom and Je..."

Yes, I can see that. Dorian is trapped between Basil and Lord Henry. He is taken in with Lord Henry, and Lord Henry is more readily fascinating. Dorian finds his views attractive and appealing. He is drawn to the taboo of it.

Yet at the same time Dorian does not seem to so readily accept Lord Henry's ideas. He likes to take a bite of temptation, but he does not seem as if he truly wishes to be corrupted all together by Lord Henry.

When he sees the cruelty of his own actions reflected back to him in the way the portrait changed after he forsook Sybil Vane, he feels regret and questions the rightness and wrongness of what he has done, and begins to desire to become better than that and wants to reform himself.

I see these chapters as the, sort of, 'climax' to the novel. I think this is the point that truly shapes Dorian into the man that he is to become. It is absolutely heartbreaking to read what happens with Sybil.
Nonetheless, this book is simply exquisite. Wilde's finest.

PS Does anyone see Sybil's name as a type of pun in its self? It has always intrigued me.

Anthea wrote: "I see these chapters as the, sort of, 'climax' to the novel. I think this is the point that truly shapes Dorian into the man that he is to become. It is absolutely heartbreaking to read what happen..."

Yes it was quite tragic, but with the Juliet tie in, and the way in which art refelcts life/life refelcts art that plays out within the story, you could see it, or something simillar to it coming.

I think the reder knew from the start that the relationship was going to be doomed.

Though honestly I have to say at first I thought Lord Henry was going to become attracted to Sybil, in the way Dorian kept going on about how beautiful she was, and he was going to end up having an affair with her.

Anthea wrote: "Does anyone see Sybil's name as a type of pun in its self? It has always intrigued me."

What do you mean?

I think Anthea means that Wilde may have been making a connection with the ancient Greek meaning of Sybil, which is prophetess who foretold the future. The word sybilline also means having a secret or hidden meaning.

http://www.thaliatook.com/AMGG/sibyl....

I think it is very likely that Wilde meant to use this connection, because he was a classics scholar. DG is full of classsic allusions. Sybil's use of the words from Tennyson's Lady of Shalott are also significant because that Victorian poem is a tragic one. The Lady of Shalott was cursed and when she went to meet the handsome knight Sir Lancelot, with whom she had fallen in love, and died in the boat that was carrying her to Camelot.

http://charon.sfsu.edu/tennyson/tennl...

She reminded me of the Sybil that guided Aeneas through the underworld. The descriptions of the theatre's pit were hellish, she is represents his first mixings with the lower classes, and she is associated with the first evil reflected in his portrait.

I'm just wondering, if by "pun", Anthea was seeing something more?

Her last name might mean something as well. As "a device which indicates the direction of the wind," Sybil indicates the first real evil we see in Dorian. His cruel rejection of her is the beginning of the unveiling of his character. The second definition is a "changeable or fickle person," which also could define Dorian in his relationship with poor Sybil.

Good points folks!:)

Looking at the suicide of Sybil Vane, I don't agree with Dorian (or Wilde), that he killed her. Sybil said that she had woken up from the fantasy of theatre as emotionally real. To my way of seeing, she traded that fantasy for one of Love. When Dorian, admittedly cruel, did not live up to that fantasy, Sybil had no other resources but dramatic ones, and so she killed herself. Her reality was pretty ugly, after all: poverty, unsavoury theatre manager, limited/no options for a poor woman to rise in that society. "Making it" on the stage would have been one way; marriage would have been about the only other.

ETA: Looking back on this, it seems to me that I'm missing a point in my presentation. Maybe it's the difference between 19thC and 21stC worldview. I did not at all expect Sybil to kill herself. I was surprised at her vulnerability and lack of resources. I think Dorian's unexpected entrance into her life, and his harsh exit, underscored the ugliness of Sybil's reality, which she had found a refuge from. Still, for Wilde to give Dorian the power of killing her by withdrawing his presence, seems too much to me. Seems like her death was only an excuse to get the picture morphing.

Peregrine wrote: "Looking at the suicide of Sybil Vane, I don't agree with Dorian (or Wilde), that he killed her. Sybil said that she had woken up from the fantasy of theatre as emotionally real. To my way of seeing..."

I agree with you here. Dorian's treatment of Sybil in that moment was thus far one of his most disagreeable within the book, and I really was angry with him for being so heartless to her when she had loved him so much.

But I am not one to place the blame of ones chosen actions upon another person. It can certainly be said that Dorian led Sybil to kill herself, but she was the one whom made the rash choice to take the action to do so.

She was an actress and so it was her given nature to rely upon theatrics and of course she was quite familiar with the fated role of Juliet. She transformed herself into Juliet in that moment.

Considering that she did not even known Dorian's name, and called him "Prince Charming" her very love for him was a kind of a fantasy in itself, as well Dorian knew Sybil only through the roles that she played upon the stage, so though Sybil may have been genuinely in love with her idea of Dorian, the love itself was not based in any realistic grounds.

On the issue of Sybil's death, though it was perhaps a heartbreaking moment, I have to tend to agree with Lord Henry about the nature of the artful tragedy of it. It was Sybil's last and greatest performance.

For even if Sybil and Dorian had gone on to marry each other, one could not forsee that they truly would have had a "happily ever after" ending. I do not think either one of them would be capable of loving the reality of who they truly were as individuals.

They were both in love only with ideals.

Silver wrote: They were both in love only with ideals.

Yes, I agree. Dorian scored a slash across Sybil's soul with his actions, just as surely as across his own, but I don't like the overpowering influence Wilde gave Dorian in this instance. Why not have Sybil reach some stability not based on unattainable ideals, and leave Dorian to suffer the lasting consequences of his actions on himself? Or is that too 21st century psychological?

Peregrine wrote: "Silver wrote: They were both in love only with ideals.

Yes, I agree. Dorian scored a slash across Sybil's soul with his actions, just as surely as across his own, but I don't like the overpowering..."

That is an interesting thought, though as you pointed out, it does not seem she would have had many other options open to her.

Dorian or her romance with Dorian ruined her acting career, once the veil was lifted, I do not think even after his abandonment of her, she could return again, and finding another "Prince Charming" does not seem very likely.

She was too dramatic I think to have simply found someone to settle with after her great love affair.

Maybe she could have gone off to join her brother in Australia and start a new life for herself.

Silver wrote: She was too dramatic I think to have simply found someone to settle with after her great love affair.

Well, she was only seventeen years old, an age known for being dramatic. Syill, I keep thinking of the woman who gave Scrooge back his ring in A Christmas Carol, and how she went on with a very different sort of life afterwards.

Maybe she could have gone off to join her brother in Australia and start a new life for herself.

I see her brother as a great source of nonidealistic options. But then, Australia was months away by letter. It still seems to me that Wilde was somehow untrue in his treatment of Sybil in this story, that even though Dorian rejected her when her life was no longer all about fulfilling his desires, her death was all about him.

There is, I think, an unstated assumption that Sybil had been seduced by Dorian and in Victorian times this would mean that she was a 'ruined woman' who would have brought shame to her mother. As Hardy found with Tess, this was a very touchy topic to write about and this may be why Wilde's description of these events does not ring true.

MadgeUK wrote: "There is, I think, an unstated assumption that Sybil had been seduced by Dorian and in Victorian times this would mean that she was a 'ruined woman' who would have brought shame to her mother. As H..."


Though considering her own mother was a "ruined woman" as it is stated that Sybil herself was born of an affair that her mother had, and I did not think that working in the theater, was a very respected profession particularly for women at that time, it does not seem that Sybil's relations with Dorian could have really damaged her mother's reputation all that much.

MadgeUK wrote: "There is, I think, an unstated assumption that Sybil had been seduced by Dorian and in Victorian times this would mean that she was a 'ruined woman' who would have brought shame to her mother. As H..."

Oh, I get it. Thanks, Madge.

That is true Silver but even so I think it would have an effect - presumably the mother had dragged herself up from the gutter meanwhile. Can't remember, did the mother marry? That would make her respectable, even though she was pregnant.

I do not think that it mentioned that she ever married, but I would have to go back in check during that whole conversation with Sybil's brother.

These chapters are a bit melodramatic, aren't they?

Having said that, Dorian is shown in these chapters for what he is: beautiful on the outside, shallow on the inside. He was merely infatuated with Sybil and called it love. He grieved for a moment when she killed herself, but got over it very quickly.

Dorian chose to hide the picture that would have served as his conscience - to me, that was the most important event of these 5 chapters. I mean, a lot of folks (me included, at times) try to "hide" their conscience and do what they want to do, even if it's not morally or ethically right. It's an intriguing idea to have one's conscience reside totally outside oneself and be able to hide it away in an attic, never to be dealt with again! Dorian made the decision to put his conscience away forever . . .

MadgeUK wrote: "I think Anthea means that Wilde may have been making a connection with the ancient Greek meaning of Sybil, which is prophetess who foretold the future. The word sybilline also means having a secret..."

That is part of what I mean, but take a look at Sybil's full name: Sybil VANE. Isn't vanity, i.e. conceit, a principal theme throughout the novel? I think Wilde used Sybil's character as a symbol of the destructiveness and tragedy of conceit.

And in response to Silver's comment (message 13) about Dorian and Sybil's relationship, I have to disagree. I believe Wilde used Dorian and Sybil's relationship to display his opinions of 'Romeo and Juliet'. Where Romeo 'killed' Juliet, Dorian did Sybil. Obviously he didn't literally kill her, but Wilde obviously believe that he did (metaphorically speaking) and has used Dorian and Sybil's relationship to prove the destructiveness of love. And with that, to emphasise the fragility of love.

Yes, vain is conceit and vane is a weather vane which changes with the wind. Wilde could have meant either.

Good comment on the Romeo and Juliet connection. Pretty well every situation in the novel could be attributed to one classic or another. Wilde didn't read the Greats at Oxford for nothing!:)

In the Preface Wilde writes there is no moral or immoral book. But the picture of Dorian Gray is a moral judgment on his actions. He does an ugly, immoral thing by betraying the love a girl (for superficial reasons) and the picture changes to reflect the ugliness of his soul and the ugliness of his actions. At this point in the book I find him utterly repulsive -- his insensitivity to anything but his own feelings -- his twisted view of what happened at the theatre "He would not think any more of what she had made him go through, on that horrible night at the theatre." Any opinions as to why he makes the assertion in the Preface? (I realise it was also a reaction to the general condemnation of the story in the press.)

Are we to believe that Wilde thought Dorian and Sybil were "in love" or did he think that Dorian superficially enjoyed the sensation of Sybil's artistry and had no regard for her as a person? Harry's attitude toward women, which is quickly forming Dorian's, is one of scorn and derision.
Can we seek the author's opinion in the words of Basil or Henry? Or has he concealed the artist as he states in the Preface?

If Sybil represents a sybil, why is she so devoid of wisdom? I think that Anthea's idea that her surname, Vane, indicates the destructiveness and tragedy of conceit is convincing.

In the preface, Wilde may be trying to emphasise that a book cannot be 'moral or immoral' because society's perception of morality often changes. Different people believe different things. In this instance, what we see as moral judgment is the changing of Dorian's portrait, however what Dorian perceives as the 'right thing', for him at least, is the way he leads his life and his reflection in the mirror as he stays young. Perhaps this is why the portrait grows old and repugnant; it is the judgement of society, however Dorian stays the same because of Harry's judgment as well as his own.

I was just reading chapter XI about his obsession with the book that Henry gave him. Some of that was really hard going and tedious, but my impression was that part of what Wilde is doing is mocking the appearance of good that society demands of you and the fact that Dorian was accepted on his "face value" except by those who had intimate contact with him (and were damaged by him). Because he gave fantastic parties and dinners he was accepted, despite the rumours. "Society, civilized society at least, is never very ready to believe anything to the detriment of those who are both rich and fascinating. It feels instinctively that manners are of more importance than morals, and in its opinion, the highest respectability is of much less value than the possession of a good chef." Civilised society's standards were on a par with the hedonistic Dorian and Henry, so long as any appearance of "evil" could be overlooked.

Although I am curious to see what happens in the end, it is getting a little tedious.

Good point Rochelle - do you think it is the same today?

Tedious? Really? This is one of my favorite novels. Simply brilliant.

Anthea wrote: "Tedious? Really? This is one of my favorite novels. Simply brilliant."

I am thus far really enjoying this book but I have to agree that one particular chapter XI is extremely tedious, and to me it felt not all that necessary. A majority of it was just like a laundry list of accessories and decorations. While such things were important to the aesthetic movement, I did not feel as if I needed to read about every piece of jewelry, furniture, tapestry.

Part of me was tempted to just skip that chapter because it did not even feel like it fit into the story. It was like taking a pause in the story to talk about interior decoration.

I thought chapter XI was interesting when Wilde was talking about what lengths Dorian went to keep his mind off all the things he had done. Dorian became obsessed with different material items to keep from going crazy. I also enjoyed the descriptions of the stuff he obtained although I can see how it could be a little tedious to read.

Rochelle wrote: "I was just reading chapter XI about his obsession with the book that Henry gave him. Some of that was really hard going and tedious, but my impression was that part of what Wilde is doing is mocki..."

Think of really famous people who do shabby things -- Pitt and Jolie for two -- they are still revered and practically deified. Eliot Spitzer is reentering the political fray. Sanford won't step down. Delay was on Dancing with the Stars. Hugh Hefner didn't have a magical portrait to keep him young, but he certainly has pull. The NYT still reveres the money makers on Wall Street (just look at the society pages) even though they are dragging down the entire global economy. (sorry about all the US-centric references, if I knew the Euro personalities I would use those!)

Are these the people who are really important and worthy of notice and admiration, and is this really an existential world? Does it not matter what one does, no matter how one meets ones responsibilities in a conscientious way? Is life meaningless? Are people what matter or is Art/money/power what matters? Should we just be hedonists with no regard for consequences to society? Goldman Sachs made plenty of money betting against Greece, that's good for them, but not for the rest of the globe.

Poor Wilde was in a very tough position that must have made him extremely bitter. His sexual orientation was condemned by society and he had to live a shadow life in fear. I think this skewed his thinking about society. (Well, also the fact that Victorian society was really hypocritical) If he had felt accepted by society in this one way, his outlook on life would have been completely different. I know that gays are discriminated against in all sort so ways still, but his present day counterpart could be someone like Elton John who is a fantastic artist and personality and openly gay.