Victorians! discussion

Im struggling to get into this book. Its not that the characters are loathsome but that as characters they all feel a bit flat. I think i would enjoy the banter between henry and dorian more there were occasionally more more mundane conversations in there too (i.e real conversations that humans actually have!!). Henry has some great lines in the book but i feel a bit like im being drowned in them!! does that make any sense to anyone!

Lushbug, I struggled with it when I read it last year. I think I only gave it 2 stars as I rushed it to get to the end. I intended to try again with the group but haven't found myself wanting to pick it up again yet.

I definitely found it slow going in the first couple chapters, but then I got completely caught up in it and sped through the rest (except for the catalog of Dorian's fancy textiles and jewelry, which I only kind of skimmed, eep!).

the story is moving along now and the pace has picked up but for me it lacks depth.it just seems so superficial...plus i want details!! its a book about debauchery etc yet its all just hinted at so i cant really hate dorian as i dont understand his sins fully. i know that oscar couldnt be too blatent because of the times he wrote in and perhaps its a better book for hinting and not showing...i dont know! just my musings!

You couldn't do much more than hint at debauchery in Victorian times Lushbug! There were 'yellow books' which were undercover and Victorians had books bound in beautiful leather on the outside with filth on the inside:O.

What do you mean you don't understand his sins?? Think of all the sins you have been told about and have read about - they don't change over the centuries:D. LOL.

Madge- Good points. just feel like so far im being told dorian is a really bad apple but i cant really see it myself in his actions-seems all talk no substance to me. perhaps it will become clearer to me as i read on

I think our problem with Dorian might be because the Victorians were very prudish and thought of many things as sins which we would not not bat an eyelid at:). Like homosexuality itself, or having sex outside of marriage, or even being an actress. The whole 'decadence' issue is different for us, as is the view of the decadence of things from the East, which we are very used to.

Can anyone think of other things in DG seen as 'sins' that we think nothing of today?

Madge, in answer to your post sins that arent sins by todays standards -I think the below are examples of sins that nowdays wouldn’t be considered such
1. Drug use-whilst class A’s are frowned upon we all know people who do it and its nowhere near as big a deal as it was then
2. Seducing young females and ruining their good reputations-whilst girls who sleep around can still get a bad name for themselves, sleeping with a guy before marriage wouldn’t have the same detrimental effect on your life it did then-unless you got pregnant!
3. Corruption of other males in to behaving as he does-drinking, gambling, homosexuality etc wouldn’t be seen in the same light

Things still likely to get you into trouble today!
Blackmail
Murder

I don't think drug use was such a big deal then as it is now Lushbug. There were opium dens in every large town and it was widely used for recreational purposes and as a medicine - even Queen Victoria used it. Nowadays it is an 'illegal substance' because we know more about its addictiave qualities.

the opiums dens were seen as seedy and a place no one respectable would go though? They were in the worst parts of towns and your wouldnt admit to going to one in polite society.

True, but they weren't illegal. They were like prostitution - that was seedy too but 'respectable' Victorian men were very much into using prostitutes - it was a form of birth control for their wives.

lol bet the wives loved that....they dont get pregnant but may end up with a nasty STD instead!

Yes, syphilis was rife then, as bad as AIDS now. Thousands endured paralysis, blindness and insanity from the infection before finally dying. Prostitution was not illegal and some estimates put the number of women on the streets of London alone at 80,000, or one for every 12 men. By the 1850s, about half the outpatients in the main London hospitals had STDs. By the turn of the century 1 in 10 men had syphilis. Fortunately penicillin was discovered in the 1930s although it didn't become widely available until after WWII. Many men were cured when they went into the army in 1939. Bad health amongst working people recruited into the military was discovered to be a major problem here at that time, which was one of the reasons there was a 'putsch' to create the National Health Service after the war.

http://www.channel4.com/history/micro...

And of course the Victorians thought that such diseases were God's punishment for sinful behaviour which is the theme underlying DG.

It is amazing to me how easily Harry seduces Dorian and sets him on a path of excess. ("mere words") Harry's life is led completely on the surface and what he shows to Dorian feels like a revelation, but Dorian is only learning to see the surface of himself and the world.

Stepping outside your social class was seen as a sin against God and your family. That is Dorian's first sin. Although we learn of his parent's marriage, we don't learn anything of his rearing -- are we to assume that he had a privileged education and usual religious instruction? (which apparently left him with little self knowledge). The other sin is the sin of not respecting experience and age. Harry and Basil worship Youth and Beauty. Dorian's desperation when he realised that his picture would always be younger than he, is like a woman who rushes off to the cosmetic surgeon at the first sign of a wrinkle! This worship of youth (by men, and of men) would have been rejected by society, wouldn't it??

The lush imagery of flowers, scent and colour are intoxicating. The bee flying in to the flower!!!!! How could the Victorians have missed are the homo-erotic imagery?? What was the culminating issue that brought out Wilde's orientation?

My most distracting problem with this book is getting the image of Rupert Everett as Harry out of my head. Does anyone else have this problem? I'm assuming that he will become even more satanic as the story progresses.

I guess if you knew nothing about homosexuality you could easily miss homo-erotic imagery.

The bee which 'crept into the stained trumpet of a Tyrian convolvulus' is full of imagery. Tyrian is a purple dye, used for royal robes, and very expensive. In the Victorian language of flowers a convolvulus means 'love in vain' and its common name is bindweed because it smothers other plants. It is also poisonous. It flowers once during the day and dies at night - some only flower at night.

Like the majority of homosexuals I suppose his orientation was innate and not 'brought about' by anything. However, although he had 'flirted' with homosexuality for many years at school and college, he was finally seduced by the young Canadian Robbie Ross and was afterwards introduced to homosexual society by Lord Alfred Douglas.

Madge, I misspoke, I wondered what caused Wilde to finally be prosecuted for his homosexuality? found this link which is interesting:

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/proje...

Its really quite tragic to read about the trial.

Jamie wrote: "I have been reading about the Aesthetic Movement since starting the book and feel its a good thing to research so you can see the mind frame of Wilde while reading Dorian Gray. Also knowing about W..."

Thank you Jamie, I really like this website! So handy.

Rochelle wrote: "Madge, I misspoke, I wondered what caused Wilde to finally be prosecuted for his homosexuality? found this link which is interesting:

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/proje......"

Yes it is a very tragic story, especially in view of more enlightened modern attitudes towards homosexuality/bisexuality. If he had lived now he could have had a happier, longer, more productive life.