The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

Welcome to the historical fiction discussion of Master and Commander by Patrick O'Brian.

This is the reading assignment for week five - (May 31st, 2010 to June 6th, 2010)

Chapter Five - pages 171 - 200

This is the second historical fiction group selected book.

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers if you are catching up.

This book was kicked off on May 3rd.

This discussion is being led by assisting moderator of historical fiction - Elizabeth S.

We always enjoy the participation of all group members. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

This thread opens up Monday, May 31st for discussion. This is a non spoiler thread.

Welcome,

~Bentley


TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

Patrick O'Brian

Chapter five begins with a view of day-to-day life aboard the Sophie. We read the log, hear about the men "sprawling abroad on the fo'c'sle and combing out their long hair" (page 172). They come upon a ship that did not answer hails. Stephen says at least one of the viewable bodies died from the plague, and Jack orders they sail away. They next see a strange sail and give chase. They are slowly overtaking, but night comes on. Jack must make a guess as to what the other ship will do. He decides to quietly put about for the night, and the men obey with confidence in their captain. Jack stays up all night, and is proven right in the morning. They take a French polacre as prize and send her to Mahon.

They next come on a ship that appears to be an exact copy of the Sophie. They are disappointed to discover it truly is a Danish ship, the Clomer, so not one for them to take. However, the Dutch tell them of a French ship just to the north, and the Sophie goes off in search. The French ship seems strangely unaware of the Sophie until it is too late. When Dillon goes aboard the Citoyen Durand, he discovers that the reason is because the ship is loaded with gunpowder, and the master's wife was on the ship giving birth at that moment. Jack sends Stephen over to help with the birthing, takes some of the gunpowder on board the Sophie. Dillon is sent to take the Citoyen Durand into Mahon. And finally Dillon and Stephen are able to have a quiet talk, remembering the days of hoping and working for Irish independence. We learn more about Stephen's reasons and devotion to pacifism, and Dillon's opinions of Jack.

Again I am enjoying the quirky humour of the book, like this exchange between Jack and Stephen during the storm at the start of the chapter.

"With the greatest of pleasure he saw that his forecast of her qualities as a sea-boat was fulfilled and, indeed, surpassed. 'She is remarkably dry.' he said to Stephen who, preferring to die in the open, had crept up on deck, had been made fast to a stanchion and who now stood, mute, sodden and appalled, behind him.
'Eh?'
'She - is - remarkably - dry.'
Stephen frowned inpatiently: this was no time for trifling."

I enjoyed the humor of the French Captain losing his will to fight because he had a ship load of powder. A wise choice.

Interesting final third of the chapter. It was a window into how a member of the crew viewed it's Captain as well as the always present tension of this era.

A ship load of powder and a delivering wife. What a lethal combination.

I agree with you, Rodney, that the view of how Dillon saw Jack was very interesting. It seemed that Dillon was mainly critical with Jack for being mercenary minded, for thinking foremostly of prize money. Stephen had an interesting look at it when he said, "I wonder, James, whether it is not too easy for a rich man to despise money -- to mistake the real motives" (page 199). In no way does James think himself rich, but Stephen does try to gently point out that James hasn't wanted for money the way others have. That gives him a certain confidence and security that he doesn't even recognize he has. Dillon thinks of Jack as money-loving, and certainly he is. But isn't he also seeking for that financial confidence and basic security that Dillon has always enjoyed?

What do you all think? How much is the search for wealth a matter of wanting the fancy extras in life, and how much is a fundamental desire for security?

We can answer this question both about Jack in particular and about people in general. I think most people seek wealth for both reasons, to some extent. However, the desire for security might be more masked and even unrecognized by the person themselves.

Aussie Rick, thanks for that humor bit. I liked it too. Two men talking from two very different perspectives.

One of my favorite humor pieces from this chapter is near the middle, where Jack is outlining his plans for the future. Jack says: "I don't despair of making our gunnery at least as dangerous to others as it is to ourselves" (page 184). What a good goal!

Elizabeth S wrote: "A ship load of powder and a delivering wife. What a lethal combination.

I agree with you, Rodney, that the view of how Dillon saw Jack was very interesting. It seemed that Dillon was mainly cr..."

Elizabeth S wrote: "A ship load of powder and a delivering wife. What a lethal combination.

I agree with you, Rodney, that the view of how Dillon saw Jack was very interesting. It seemed that Dillon was mainly cr..."

Money certainly is almost entirely a matter of security for me. I think a lot depends on your personality and life experiences.

Elizabeth S wrote: "A ship load of powder and a delivering wife. What a lethal combination.

I agree with you, Rodney, that the view of how Dillon saw Jack was very interesting. It seemed that Dillon was mainly cr..."

What does this say about Jack's character? While O'Brian shows sympathy for Jack's attitude; James is still defining the problem as being between greed and honor and glory. He is even questioning Jack's courage to a certain extent. We also suspect Jack is something of a philanderer based on some of his earlier behavior. How will O'Brian resolve this issue?

What do you all think? How much is the search for wealth a matter of wanting the fancy extras in life, and how much is a fundamental desire for security?

We can answer this question both about Jack in particular and about people in general. I think most people seek wealth for both reasons, to some extent. However, the desire for security might be more masked and even unrecognized by the person themselves.


In the case of Jack, I think this is the culmination of a lifetime of work and he would like to get a few paydays. In my opinion, a life lived in those quarters deserves a payday or two.

What Jack is going to have to balance is now a member of the crew has perceived him as treasure hungry to the possible determent of their safety. On thing a leader will have to combat is the perception of their crew not putting them first. I am very interested in how Jack will address that.

In general, I am a capitalist at heart. I do believe the pursuit of financial gain can lead to good things. Like a lot of things in life, excess can lead to destruction. Each individual has to know their limitations and define their own levels of success.

Rodney wrote: "What do you all think? How much is the search for wealth a matter of wanting the fancy extras in life, and how much is a fundamental desire for security?

We can answer this question both about Ja..."

The crew may think that getting prizes is the number one priority. A captain taking prizes may be perceived as doing the best to look out for their interests. For a sailor at sea during this period, death is never far away and personal safety is not a high expectation when there is the possibility of money!

No pension or retirement payments or plans but in those days, you lived and died on what you earned and a sailors pay was bugger all! I can fully understand the attraction to collecting prize money.

I thought Stephen's observation, that it is easier for those who are materially comfortable to be indifferent to making money, than those who are or have been poor, quite apt. And of course Stephen knows as well, or better than, Jack, what it is to be short of cash!

Most of the examples of Stephen-the-landlubber's lack of understanding of all things naval have been funny. But the incident in which Jack, as captain, orders the Sophie to sail away from the ship with plague victims, Stephen, as physician, was outraged. Not played for laughs, and the contrast with the other comic incidents made this more impressive.

You all have some great points. I agree that it is interesting to consider the prize-question in terms of what it tells us about Jack's character. One part of it is definitely mercenary, and that seems to be the part Dillon sees. But also it is a unifier for the crew. A captain to gets prizes is followed more whole-heartedly by his men. As Stephen says, someone who is financially secure has the luxury of seeking fights for the glory, without the necessity of also considering the monetary considerations.

As Aussie Rick said, sailor's pay was "bugger" in those days. Perhaps scorning prize money would be similar to a waiter/server scorning tips in our day. The basic pay of a waiter is usually minimal, on the expectation that they'll earn tips. It is definitely a system set-up to take advantage of natural greed and encourage the ships to take prizes. And often the taking of a prize also achieves glory for one's country. Dillon is perhaps focusing too much on the few times prizes and glory are at odds.

Erick wrote: "...We also suspect Jack is something of a philanderer based on some of his earlier behavior. How will O'Brian resolve this issue? "

Let's be sure to revisit this question as we get further into the book.

By the way, I think the statement, "We also suspect Jack is something of a philanderer" is a marvelous understatement worthy of the book itself. :)

What do you all think of using the ship's log to tell some of the story? About the first half of this chapter uses that device.

I think it gives us a great picture of ship life. We learn about floggings, and what they are for, without having to "experience" one with the crew. I think if we were taken through a flogging, we would feel some natural horror of it because we would see it through the eyes of our century. But reading about it through the log helps us see it the way the men of the times saw it--part of life.

Also, the nautical details of the log help us remember that sailing a ship isn't just commanding your men to "go that way." You have to actually know your sails and wind directions and such. And the log nicely ties together a number of otherwise disparate events.

As Owen pointed out a couple of weeks ago, there is some great poetry in this book.

One I noticed in this chapter is on page 173: The Sophie "climbed the creaming slope of a wave, slipped its roaring top neatly under her bows and travelled smoothly down into the hollow."

It gives one a sense of the elegance of how a ship travels with the sea, and helps us see the Sophie through the eyes of those who love such sea life.

I never think of a ship sailing elegantly, it sounds nice but the reality is me still being sea-sick! But you are right Elizabeth, that quote reads so well and offers the reader an image of a ship in full sail, climbing the waves and sliding graceful down again (uh-oh, feeling sick again).

I'm a little late to the party this week. I enjoyed this chapter immensely, perhaps my favorite chapter so far. There was a lot of action, from the first great storm, to the chasing of multiple ships, to the spirited discussions on political philosophy. Good stuff, and O'Brian handles it all masterfully.

Elizabeth, I really enjoyed the ship's log story telling device. It was a great way to condense major events into small digestible chunks. I also really like how the final log entry gave a bit of insight into the mind of a captain and how you and I might not be able to read between the lines like another captain would: "...a happiness that another commander might have discerned from the log-entry, although it was not specifically mentioned here...".

Also, I agree whole-heartedly on the poetic prose O'Brian uses often. The scene with the storm was masterfully written.

I don't have too much more to add to the topic of wealth that hasn't already been covered, but I do want to say I'm not quite as cynical of Jack as James is, though I think there may be a bit of truth to what he is saying. Even if so, money will make for a happier crew, and a happy crew is a loyal, hard-working crew! I do sense a confrontation between Jack and James at some point in the book.

Finally, plenty of serious stuff in this chapter, but my favorite bit of fun was the scene where Jack interrupted the social gathering of James, Stephen, and the purser (forget his name). Once again this was skillfully written, and quite humorous:

"Here, rather to his surprise, he found Dillon ... playing chess with Stephen, while the purser read them pieces from the Gentleman's Magazine, with comments." (I take it this magazine would be quite different from what we today would consider a "gentleman's" magazine?)

[skip a sentence:]

"They made him welcome - hurried about with glasses of wine, sweet biscuits, the most recent Navy List - but he was an intruder: he had upset their quiet sociability, dried up the purser's literary criticism and interrupted the chess as effectually as an Olympian thunderbolt."

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I never think of a ship sailing elegantly, it sounds nice but the reality is me still being sea-sick! But you are right Elizabeth, that quote reads so well and offers the reader an image of a ship ..."

Exactly why I was impressed with the poetic nature of the sentences. Usually just thinking about that up...and down...and up... gets me green. But when I read those words, I could see it a little from the standpoint of someone who doesn't go green and retch, someone who lives and loves that life. It is part of what I like about books in general. I like being able to see things from other perspectives, even if it is very far from what I am or ever will be!

To add to something Don said in his last comment... I think this chapter begins to spend more time on the loneliness of command. The topic has been touched on earlier, but is revisited in several places this week. One big point is the scene Don described, where Jack comes upon his "officers" hanging out together, and basically disrupts their relaxation merely with his presence. It says on pages 180-181, "he was an intruder: he had upset their quiet sociability."

It isn't always a negative, however. On pages 178-179, Jack feels a need to think without interruption, and is able to get that easily since he is the captain. "The blessed inviolability of a captain (so ludicrous at times, such a temptation to silly pomp) wrapped him about, and his mind could run free."

Great point Elizabeth. Before, Jack was one of the guys, now he is the guy. That takes a while to sort itself out. In some cases, leaders never do sort it out and they become ineffective.

I like how you said it, Rodney: "Before, Jack was one of the guys, now he is the guy."