Book Nook Cafe discussion
Group Read
>
Picking Cotton - June 2010
You may be interested in the fascinating series of articles that William Saletan is writing in Slate.com about the memory process, and how it can be manipulated and contaminated, or just plain wrong. This link is to one of the articles that is specifically about eyewitness identifications and testimony in criminal cases, but the whole series is interesting. It is not all published yet, coming out every few days. The series is really about Dr Elizabeth Loftus, an experimental psychologist who has been studying (and tampering with) memories for many years and is often called to be an expert witness in trials. http://www.slate.com/id/2251882
I find memory a fascinating topic. Thanks for the link. It was very interesting.I recall lawyers on Court TV saying that people always put a knock on circumstantial evidence. They want eyewitness testimony. They don't realize just how unreliable eyewitness testimony is.
I goofed Big Time. I went to the library without my list. Searching my memory is like seeking water in a sieve. I tried all sorts of variations but never came up with either title or authors. So, it'll be at least a week before i have the book in my hands. I'll refrain from reading the posts...or not. :-) We'll see. The topic is, indeed, fascinating.deborah
I just started. I read the prologue so far.
I don't have the book yet either. Hoping to get it this week.But my son is getting married on June 11 and I'm swamped, so don't know how much posting I'll do.
kate
Oh, Kate! How exciting. I hope we get photos again. Now both your children will be married. Will this couple live in your city? Enjoy the joy!deborah
Oh, I am excited about this wedding. Randy and Brandie live here in town and I see them all of the time. I'll have pictures on FaceBook, but I'll send out pics to those not on FB. This is going to be one fun wedding for many reasons. Keeping to topic though, I really do plan to start the book as soon as it comes. I'll also be taking a short vacation right after the wedding, but school is over this week so I will have extra time.
Kate
CHAPTER 2Wow. I think her boyfriend is a real a-hole after he asked her if she liked it.
I'm still reading The Promise: President Obama, Year One. I have Picking Cotton and will try to start today.
I don't think I can renew The Promise, so I'll have to read both at the same time.
PART 1: CHAPTERS 1-4This is the initial Jennifer part. I think the book is well written and paced. It doesn't get bogged down in procedural details. It spends a good amount of time on the 'miscommunication' between Jennifer and her loved ones. Man, it is hard for most of us to talk and empathize very well when it comes to traumatic events. Most everybody wants Jennifer to just get over it. She sure called out members of her family (and her boyfriend especially) for their lack of sympathy/empathy/recognition. That added more 'tell it like it is' to the book.
I have one complaint: I think the parts where she chose the assailant are given short attention. There is not much shared with us when and after the selection is made: She basically picks him(Cotton) because he brings back feelings of that night (and that is that). Surely, Jennifer had more interesting things (about the selection) going on in her mind that she could have shared with us in the book. To me this was a lost opportunity to add more 'tell it like it is' to the book.
Julie wrote: "I just started. I read the prologue so far."--------------------
I just read the prologue and it took me by surprise.
It looks to be a sad, yet gripping read. It sure caught my attention quickly.
Spoilers for chapter 1 & 2 JenniferThis isn't starting off on the right foot. Jennifer has to go back to the hospital a second time for another rape kit. Good grief !
Than no partition during the line up because they were in a "transitional" building.
I also don't get the part where guests of Paul are told to turn the movie off and they refuse. What kind of jerks are these? What kind of man is Paul that Jennifer isn't more important than a movie?
And Julie, I agree after reading chapter 2 Paul is a complete moron to ask her those things at the ice cream parlor !
It's almost incomprehensible to me that people could have been so callous and ignorant towards Jennifer.
Yes, it is sad that so many people started acting like she needed to "just get over it". But I guess that is not totally surpising to me. People often get engrossed in their own busy lives and other people's problems get minimized. Either that or they just don't know what to say and do. There was a similar theme in So Much for That which I read recently.
This is a really fast read. I am already in the middle of chapter 8 of the Ronald section.How Ronald kept sane I have no idea. Jail is bad enough when you do the crime, but when you are innocent, I don't know how you deal with it.
Julie wrote: "Yes, it is sad that so many people started acting like she needed to "just get over it". But I guess that is not totally surpising to me. People often get engrossed in their own busy lives and othe..."--------------------
Chapter 3 spoiler
I was kind of shocked that her parents said "they would come when they could. Your father's go a lot of business meetings, my mother said on the phone. And you know I've got my classes..."
She also says her brothers did not come to the trial.
I just don't get how her family wouldn't be there for her in her moment of need.
****Commentary on whole book to follow ****This was a fast read. I finished it in three days.
The most amazing part of the story for me was how Mr. Cotton was able to not be bitter. His attitude towards life is inspirational.
Two quotes I liked from the book were-
P170 (hardcover ed)
"Guilt, fear, anger-they were all their own kinds of prison. You could be out in the world and still be doing time."
P252
"Forgiveness is tricky. People think you forgive someone, you excuse what he did. That's not what it is. It's about power and letting go."
As for Jennifer, she had to overcome two things. The attack and what happened to Cotton. She was lucky he was so forgiving or I don't know how she would have been able to forgive herself and move on with her life.
In my hardcover edition the title Picking Cotton is in black except for the second I in picking. It's in orange. Anyone know the significance of this?
According to this link
http://troyanthonydavis.org/
There is another hearing for Troy Anthony Davis is just a few weeks.
Good question about the cover. I don't think I consciously noticed the different color of the "I" enough to even think about it at all. I agree that this book is a fast read, but I haven't had much time to get to it so I am about halfway through now. And am currently angry at the fact that the jury wasn't given all the info (Poole). How can you arrive at the truth if you don't know all the information?
Serendipitously, on NPR was a program regarding the Slate article you provided for us.Here is a link to listen to the interview and also links on the subject.
http://beta.wnyc.org/shows/lopate/201...
False Memories
Thursday, June 03, 2010
More coverage Remember that time that President Obama shook hands with Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad? Or what about when Joe Lieberman voted to impeach President Clinton? If you're nodding your head yes, you've got a false memory--neither of these things ever happened, but there is a reason you believe they did.
Slate's national affairs correspondent Will Saletan and experimental psychologist Dr. Elizabeth Loftus will join us to explain the science behind memory falsification and its connection to almost every aspect of our lives--law, advertising, even weight loss therapies.
"The Memory Doctor" is Will Saletan's eight part series on the subject of false memory on Slate.com.
Test how true your political memory is by trying out Slate's photo survey
Guests:Dr. Elizabeth Loftus and Will Saletan
Read More:false memories memory politcs
Julie wrote: . And am currently angry at the fact that the jury wasn't given all the info (Poole). How can you arrive at the truth if you don't know all the information?."
-----------------
One has to wonder how much racism came into play.
Not my most favorite book. I agree with MadDog about not knowing how she "knew" to identify him. I can't imagine being faced just across a conference table from the lineup.Her boyfriend was a total jerk. I can't even go there.
Alias -- Given that it was a black man who did attack her and it wasn't one of those blame the black man things, I'm not into thinking that racism was an issue. However there are also studies that show that we are not good at identifying differences in people that are not of the same background as we are. This works for both sides, as well as Asians etc. So it might have just been unconscious. And again -- the shock of being just across the table. I think having identified him once it reinforced that she was looking for the person who she had picked out before.
Too many cases of misidentification like this and I find myself more interested in the issue than in each person's memoir.
I finished the book last night and liked it alot. There was some explanation in chapter 19 about how people pick the wrong suspect....picking the "next best one" if the right one isn't there (she DID want this guy caught really badly), reinforcement from what the prosecutor says etc. She did a good job with the photo so subconsciously picked the same guy again in person. And I have seen from other types of things that people can pretty easily convince themselves that things are true when they really want them to be. What I wanted to know more about is what made the other woman change her mind before the second trial. But I guess since she's not one of the writers they probably don't have that information.Alias, you picked out some good quotes. I like them too.
Bobbie57 wrote: Alias -- Given that it was a black man who did attack her and it wasn't one of those blame the black man things, I'm not into thinking that racism was an issue.."---------------------
I didn't mean on Jennifer's part, I meant on the courts part. The judge made some very odd rulings.
Bobbie57 wrote: "Too many cases of misidentification like this and I find myself more interested in the issue than in each person's memoir. .."-------------------
I think that angle adds to the book. It raises questions and makes the reader think and maybe change/question/think about ones views.
For example, does it make you question ones view on capital punishment? Jennifer, according to the internet, has now changed her views and now is a strong advocate against it.
Has the book changed your views on eyewitness testimony? Do you now thing a circumstantial case is just as strong or stronger than one were there is just an eye witness. (most people, believe that eye witness testimony is the gold standard. this is not the view many people in the criminal justice system or people who study it have. )
Were you surprised at how memory can be so easily altered? (see the Slate article link).
Alias Reader wrote: I didn't mean on Jennifer's part, I meant on the courts part. The judge made some very odd rulings."Yes, but Poole was black too. I don't get why they tried to ignore him as a suspect.
Alias noted: Than no partition during the line up because they were in a "transitional" building.I found this very disturbing. I don't think you could begin to assume you'd get a valid identification because of the "threat" factor. If I had been Jennifer, I'm not sure I could have done that.
And Julie, I agree after reading chapter 2 Paul is a complete moron to ask her those things at the ice cream parlor !
I have read that it is not unusual for significant others to react with the same type of questions. In a way they are also violated, and may not be able to think clearly. I think the quesitons were heartless and foretold what was to come, but I don't think Paul was unique in his insensitivity.
Kate
Alias Reader wrote: "Julie wrote: "Yes, it is sad that so many people started acting like she needed to "just get over it". But I guess that is not totally surpising to me. People often get engrossed in their own busy ..."I had a lot of trouble with the lack of support from Jennifer's family. There were probably other dysfunctions we do not learn about, because she seems fairly accepting of the reality of their reaction. This must be a family pattern.
Kate
Chapter 19 spoiler!There was some explanation in chapter 19 about how people pick the wrong suspect....picking the "next best one" if the right one isn't there (she DID want this guy caught really badly), reinforcement from what the prosecutor says etc. She did a good job with the photo so subconsciously picked the same guy again in person. And I have seen from other types of things that people can pretty easily convince themselves that things are true when they really want them to be.
This made perfect sense to me. I think details blur in our memories almost as soon as they happen, and the stress Jennifer was under was tremendous. That sounds like I'm excusing her mistake and I'm most certainly not. She was on a mission to find the guy and the pieces fell the wrong way for Ron Cotton. I can't even begin to imagine her later guilt and remorse.
kate
Alias Reader wrote: "Bobbie57 wrote: "Too many cases of misidentification like this and I find myself more interested in the issue than in each person's memoir. .."-------------------
I think that angle adds to the b..."
Sorry didn't mean to make light of this. But I have been against the death penalty for a long time and aware of these issues so it didn't bring anything new to the table for me.
And yes Jennifer, people do convince themselves that something is true if they want it to be. I agree. And I really wanted to know what caused the other woman to finally step up to the plate.
THROUGH CHapter 9 of Ronald's chapter.I've tried to avoid posts which are beyond this, so if i step on toes, apologies.
One thing which hasn't been mentioned but which immediately concerned me was about Paul, her fiance. He left the house while she was sleeping. I cannot believe he wasn't filled with some sort of remorse or guilt that this happened, even if it wasn't his fault. Perhaps she is protecting him & his private conversations with her or perhaps he never saw it this way. But i must admit, even though i might not tell my loved one, i would probably feel a sense of blame against him. Yes, it's irrational, as i presume he did all she would have done herself but i wish some words about this fact were shared.
About the misidentifying. I understand wanting more from her about this process. It seems as though she shared all she could by focusing on the fact she was in the room, no partition, with the "suspects". This is probably all i could/would feel, too. While i'd want to be careful, the fear of reprisal would be present in my mind. My point is, she may have shared all she could about the actual time in the room, all she can clearly recall. OR, i'm hoping, she'll go into more about it later.
In so many ways Ronald is more forthcoming, which is not to place blame at her feet. I just felt that he gives us a better sense of his--what?--victimhood? For me i better understand it. However, hers is such an intense violation that she may not be able to be that honest.
Of all the things he shared, the one which surprised me was that he had a kitten in prison. What?! I'm amazed.
I began this book four hours ago & cannot put it down. It calls to me, "Don't you want to know what happens next?" It wouldn't surprise me if i finish it tonight.
deborah
madrano wrote: I began this book four hours ago & cannot put it down. It calls to me, "Don't you want to know what happens next?" It wouldn't surprise me if i finish it tonight."
-------------
I felt the same way. Good selection !
madrano wrote: "THROUGH CHapter 9 of Ronald's chapter.One thing which hasn't been mentioned but which immediately concerned me was about Paul, her fiance. He left the house while she was sleeping. I cannot believe he wasn't filled with some sort of remorse or guilt that this happened, even if it wasn't his fault. Perhaps she is protecting him & his private conversations with her or perhaps he never saw it this way. But i must admit, even though i might not tell my loved one, i would probably feel a sense of blame against him. Yes, it's irrational, as i presume he did all she would have done herself but i wish some words about this fact were shared.."
-------------------
I don't know if he felt guilt. However, to ask her those questions shows a simple lack of understanding about rape. It is an act of violence. I was shocked she stayed with him after that.
I also found her families reaction odd. The brothers didn't come to court. And one never even called her when it happened. He was out of the country but he couldn't spend a few bucks to say a few words of comfort to his sister?
I won't get into the families reaction to events at the end of the book until a few more finish reading it, except to say it was shocking.
THROUGH THE END OF THE BOOKJulie wrote: "What I wanted to know more about is what made the other woman change her mind before the second trial. But I guess since she's not one of the writers they probably don't have that information. ..."
I think there are a couple of questions similar to the one above which are left unanswered. Did the police (Sullivan/Sully) persuade the second victim to name Cotton? What about his boss who claimed he was inappropriate with two of the workers, close in age to the victims? Was something fishy going on? I name Sully because Ronald Cotton states the man is one of the few who didn't apologize about their conduct & its result.
About the family of Jennifer Thompson, do we know for sure they even told the traveling brother? I ask because my mother's family was notorious for not wanting to "bother" someone who wasn't nearby when tragic events occurred.
As for the other family members, i don't know what to think. While i'd like to think i would know what to say & do (listen!), we never know until we are in the circumstance. I have no qualms about what i think of the boyfriend/fiance but her relatives are something else, in my mind. Please don't get me wrong, i was taken aback by their comments, too, i just wonder.
deborah
Deborah mentioned Of all the things he shared, the one which surprised me was that he had a kitten in prison. What?! I'm amazed.Yeah, small detail, but it fascinated me. I have to admit that my first thought was kitty litter, but Ron said he used newspaper. I guess that would work.
I read this book in two days. Konwing the outcome from the start didn't dull my interest. Good choice!
Kate
I agree, Kate, knowing the outcome didn't help me lose interest, either. And i'm the Queen of "Don't Spoil!" LOL!This morning i woke up with two thoughts. The first is the Ronald Cotton did something Jennifer Thompson could not do on her own, forgive. I suppose this is important in that it accents how his family supported him & got him to that place during his incarceration. And it may echo back to our musing about her family's reactions.
The second thought is about one line from the book which bothered me when i read it. I decided to let it mull, hoping i could figure it out. Almost on the last page of their story (not the part where they tell what happened to others from their story), they have just completed their public appearance at the march of support for Troy Davis. That night Jennifer tells Ronald,"...knowing he would understand: 'Thank God I picked you.' He smiled and said, 'I know what you mean.'"
What did she mean? By this i mean, i understand the obvious part, on one level, i. e., another person might not have forgiven her &/or that he was a good man for the cause they now supported, etc. However, there is a level to the comment & idea behind it which puzzles me. I'm not sure i wanted them to share that part, to be honest with you.
I suppose the implication is that no matter how horribly things go, there we are. And in this case, it has finally worked out to where they are now. Yet, i'm not comfortable with the statement.
Alias, this may be part of the reason the cover "I" is a different color. The very word she used at the end, "picked" is in her comment. If so, i haven't figured it out, but i cannot help but wonder about the significance.
deborah
Alias Reader wrote: "I don't know if he felt guilt. However, to ask her those questions shows a simple lack of understanding about rape. It is an act of violence. I was shocked she stayed with him after that. "
I think she stayed with him because she didn't want to be alone. She was very needy.
kate/Edukate12 wrote: "Deborah mentioned Of all the things he shared, the one which surprised me was that he had a kitten in prison. What?! I'm amazed.Yeah, small detail, but it fascinated me. I have to admit that ..."
-------------------------
It made me think of the Bird Man of Alcatraz. Great movie if you haven't seen it.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055798/
madrano wrote: Alias, this may be part of the reason the cover "I" is a different color. The very word she used at the end, "picked" is in her comment. If so, i haven't figured it out, but i cannot help but wonder about the significance.."------------------------
That is the only thing I could come up with, too. Still and odd choice for the cover, imo.
Deb, I'm not clear why you felt uncomfortable about the "Thank God I picked you" statement. Why didn't you want that shared with the reader?
I found these questions online for the book.Spoiler Warning: These book club discussion questions on Picking Cotton reveal important details about the story. Finish the book before reading on.
--Were you surprised by how easily Ronald Cotton was convicted? How convincing do you think Jennifer's testimony was?
-- Were you surprised to learn that memories can actually be corrupted, such that Jennifer actually saw Ronald's face in her memory even after she knew he was not really the rapist?
-- How much of an issue, if any, do you think race played in Ronald's wrongful conviction?
-- Did Picking Cotton change any opinions you held about the criminal justice system?
-- Why do you think Ronald and Jennifer were able to become such good friends? Did that surprise you?
-- What sustained Ronald while he was in prison?
-- Did you think the book was well written?
http://bestsellers.about.com/od/bookc...
spoiler- Were you surprised to learn that memories can actually be corrupted, such that Jennifer actually saw Ronald's face in her memory even after she knew he was not really the rapist?
-------------------------------
I was surprised that this false memory persisted. I wondered about her only realizing at the end that Cotton was much taller than the man who attacked her.
After viewing the pictures did you think the two men looked the same? I didn't.
spoiler-- Why do you think Ronald and Jennifer were able to become such good friends? Did that surprise you?
-----------------------------
I think they both needed to forgive in order to move on. Much easier said than done. I think I would try to forgive, but if I am honest, I don't think if I was Ronald I could have become such good friends.
I keep a quote jnl. Here are a few that fit this book.
- Not forgiving is like a person taking poison, and waiting for the other person to die.
- For every minute you are angry you lose sixty seconds of Happiness....Ralph Waldo Emerson
-- Forgiving someone doesn't make them right, but it does make you free.... Joyce Meyer
I think Jennifer meant that if she had to have been mistaken thank heaven it was you I picked because someone else might not have been so forgiving. However if I were Ronald I'm not sure how I would react to that thought.I thought about the Birdman of Alcatraz also.
And I didn't think the two men looked alike at all. And I have looked and looked at their pictures.
Alias Reader wrote: After viewing the pictures did you think the two men looked the same? I didn't."They had some similarities but enough differences that they were easy to tell apart with the pictures next to each other. I did think Poole looked more like the sketch too. Speaking of those sketches, I can't imagine myself being able to describe someone well enough for anyone to make a sketch at all. Not even people I know really well. When I see people, I recognize them, but I can't picture them very well in my mind when they are not there. Last night I had to think hard about whether someone I know wears glasses!
One thing that struck me was Jennifer's description of her attacker's hair. She said [page 15 in my book:] that his hair was close-cropped. Yet in the line-up Ronald's hair looks longer to me. In fact it's almost the longest in the line-up. It would have had a short time to do some growing, but that much? As mentioned before, I think she needed a suspect so badly that she took the next best person.kate
What sustained Ronald while he was in prison?
He seemed to be a religious person and I think that gave him hope. Also his family believed in him and that gave him the courage to endure.
-- Did you think the book was well written?
Yes, I liked the format. I liked how Jennifer and Ron each got their own chapters to speak and then come together later in joint chapters. By doing that we got their voice and story clearly without any interference or hindrance.
Here is a transcript of the 60 Min. interview with Jennifer & Ronald.http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/0...
"It took the jury just 40 minutes to reach a verdict: guilty on all counts."Did any of you find this jarring? I was on jury duty for a simple car accident and we took more than twice that.
60 MIN interview:"Now that DNA has exonerated more than 230 men in mostly sex crimes and murder cases, criminologists have been able to go back and study what went wrong in those investigations.
What they've honed in on is faulty eyewitness testimony: over 75 percent of these innocent men were convicted in part because an eyewitness fingered the wrong person. "
60 MINWells says that's no good. "Recognition memory is actually quite rapid. So we find in our studies, for example, that if somebody's taking longer than ten, 15 seconds, it's quite likely that they're doing something other than just using reliable recognition memory."
"So you're saying if she really recognized a guy, it would have been almost instantaneous?" Stahl asked.
"Quite quick, yes," Wells said.
He says a better way to have done the line up would have been to show Thompson photos or people one at a time, so that she would compare each one directly to her memory, rather than to one another
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I wonder if this change has been made in all states. I hope so.
edit: later in the article it says this--
"But law professor Rich Rosen says that in the vast majority of places, there's been no reform, and that needs to change. "This is something that police officers can and should be in favor of," he told Stahl.
SPOILER60 MIN
But none of these errors explains perhaps the most puzzling part of this story: how it is that Jennifer Thompson could see Bobby Poole in the courtroom and not realize her mistake?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Any thoughts on this. Maybe once she named Cotton her mind wouldn't let her "see" Poole. It would create cognitive dissonance. I don't know if that is what psychiatrists say. But it sounds reasonable to me.
Link explaining cognitive dissonance
http://www.beyondintractability.org/e...
Book Nook Cafe
Books mentioned in this topic
The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat and Other Clinical Tales (other topics)So Much for That (other topics)
The Promise: President Obama, Year One (other topics)
Picking Cotton: Our Memoir of Injustice and Redemption (other topics)
Author: Jennifer Thompson-Cannino
About the Author - Amazon-
JENNIFER THOMPSON-CANNINO lives in North Carolina with her family. RONALD COTTON also lives with his wife and daughter North Carolina. ERIN TORNEO is a Los Angeles-based writer. She was a 2007 New York Foundation for the Arts Nonfiction Fellow. The authors received the 2008 Soros Justice Media Fellowship for this title.
Genre: Memoir
When:
Discussion will begin on June 1, 2010. We will discuss the book for one month. However, the thread will remain open so you can continue the discussion after June.
Where:
Please discuss the book in this thread.
Spoiler Etiquette:
The book is divided into 3 parts and 19 chapters
Please put the Part (1-3) you are discussing at the top of your post and the chapter # so others can avoid spoilers.
If when posting you are giving a major plot element away, Please use:
- The Part # and Chapter at the top of your post
- Type: Spoiler Alert Warning
- Provide a Spoiler Space of about 5-10 lines.
Book detail:
Pages: 287 hardcover
Paperback: 320 pages
Publisher: St. Martin's Press
First edition 2009
Synopsis: ** Contains plot elements**
Product Description- from Amazon
Jennifer Thompson was raped at knifepoint by a man who broke into her apartment while she slept. She was able to escape, and eventually positively identified Ronald Cotton as her attacker. Ronald insisted that she was mistaken-- but Jennifer's positive identification was the compelling evidence that put him behind bars. After eleven years, Ronald was allowed to take a DNA test that proved his innocence. He was released, after serving more than a decade in prison for a crime he never committed. Two years later, Jennifer and Ronald met face to face-- and forged an unlikely friendship that changed both of their lives.
In their own words, Jennifer and Ronald unfold the harrowing details of their tragedy, and challenge our ideas of memory and judgment while demonstrating the profound nature of human grace and the healing power of forgiveness.
Amazon link:
http://www.amazon.com/Picking-Cotton-...