The Sword and Laser discussion

My first experience with zombies was probably Michael Jackson's "Thriller" or a particularly scarring Halloween episode of "The Hogan Family." Back then, my fear was based on being trapped by a mob, which has been a staple of zombie literature (i.e. novels, movies, comics, etc.) since at least "Night of the Living Dead."

Now, though (as was mentioned by someone in another thread), a lot of zombie fiction has taken a turn to focus more on society after the outbreak - in both "28 Days Later" and "The Waking Dead," the main character wakes up after the upheaval has largely passed. There's still that fear of the mob, but stories are more focused on the post-apocalyptic scenario.

What's your preference? Is this a natural progression? What do we want our zombie fiction to evolve into next?

I prefer the aftermath of the initial attack. Stories centered on the initial attack are usually chaotic and hard to follow. They're also very, um, action packed? The pacing is fast as well.

The aftermath stories are usually better paced, more character driven, using the event as more of the catalyst for the situations the characters are in, but it is not the focus of the story itself. Those usually turn out better in my opinion.

Yes, the aftermath stories are certainly more character driven.

Most zombie stories tend to have both, I guess, but I really missed that "origin story," as it were, in The Walking Dead, as one example. The whole reason I was excited to see the Dawn of the Dead remake was the scene in the trailer where the little girl attacks her parents, and they show that outside shot of an SUV careening into a trash can, or some such thing - the scene turns into a suburban nightmare. That's the part that's more terrifying to me - when everything normal breaks down. Maybe it's because that's what makes zombie stories unique - it's something unknown attacking you in your home, making that comforting place entirely foreign and unsafe. In stories where society's already broken down, the zombies may as well be coyotes, or even people on motorcycles wearing football shoulder pads; the human responses are the same. Maybe. The same could be said of my origin scenario, too, I suppose, so I don't know. Fuck it.

I think actually that a zombie post-apocalyptic scenario is much cleaner than your normal post-apocalyptic scenario. If it's a motorcycle gang attacking you, there are a lot more factors to consider. Killing them means attacking other humans. What if they're actually defending their territory and you didn't realize it? What if there are a bunch of biker babies at home they're protecting? Zombies are a clear-cut enemy. They're always evil and there's no moral quandary about killing them.

In WWZ the enemy was evil. There was no doubt in anyone's mind that you had to put them down. All the zombie apologists got eaten pretty early on. It made for a very black and white story.

Doug wrote: "I think actually that a zombie post-apocalyptic scenario is much cleaner than your normal post-apocalyptic scenario. If it's a motorcycle gang attacking you, there are a lot more factors to consid..."

Yes, though they always throw in that human drama within the camp. Survival instincts kick in and people turn into monsters themselves, so that it's not the outside monsters you have to deal with, but the ones inside.

Brooks didn't explore this angle much in WWZ, from what I remember, so it's true that his story was black and white. The bird's-eye view took us out of the trenches for the most part, as Tom mentioned in the podcast (when he said the reader was somewhat disconnected from the horror of events). I don't have the book in front of me, but I know there's a great passage in there from the soldier regarding the absolutes of the conflict.

SPOILERS for Dawn of the Dead (1978 not 2004) and the Walking Dead comic book series.

Doug wrote: "I think actually that a zombie post-apocalyptic scenario is much cleaner than your normal post-apocalyptic scenario. If it's a motorcycle gang attacking you, there are a lot more factors to consid..."

I disagree. In the most important works in the zombie "genre," i.e. George Romero's original trilogy, humans are a bigger threat than the zombies are. In particular, in the original Dawn of the Dead, the zombies are relatively easy to deal with, given prudent precaution, and are kept at bay until the intervention of . . . a biker gang.

A lot of works in the zombie genre have tried to make zombies alone the threat. I think this often fails. A notable exception is The Walking Dead comic series (at least up until issue #48 or so when they leave the prison, that's as far as I've read). A fundamental part of all good zombie literature and movies is the fact that humanity screws up really bad.

In WWZ, while zombies are a significant threat, the question of humanity winning the day centers around whether or not individuals and society will be able to make the correct and tough decisions necessary to organize resistance.

I like "Shaun of the Deads" version of a Zombie where you could keep a head of it with just a good stiff walk.

Ben wrote: "I disagree. In the most important works in the zombie "genre," i.e. George Romero's original trilogy, humans are a bigger threat than the zombies are. In particular, in the original Dawn of the Dead, the zombies are relatively easy to deal with, given prudent precaution, and are kept at bay until the intervention of . . . a biker gang."

I'm not a big horror fan, so I haven't seen/read any of your references.

What I was trying to get at wasn't that the remaining humans weren't an issue, but that the zombies themselves were black and white characters. There were no "good" zombies who just wanted to be left alone or fit in with society. They are always the bad guy.

I was actually surprised that there wasn't some country using them as a weapon in the aftermath to keep another country subjugated.

When I say it's a cleaner scenario, I guess I was thinking of the response. There's no moral questions about what to do. Look at a nuclear war scenario. Do you bomb them back? If so are you worse than them? Are you eradicating all that's left of human life? When you're fighting zombies, they are irredeemable threats that must be neutralized.