The Sword and Laser discussion

SPOILERS

I got somewhere into Feast of Crows and just got depressed and stopped reading. It took me ten years of recommendations before I finally picked up Game of Thrones. And by that I mean off of my shelf where I'd put it after not liking the first chapter. So after friend number x+100 tells me I MUST read this book, I tried again. When Eddard was killed I was WTF pissed. It just went downhill from there.

I don't think there's anything wrong with killing off characters. After all he makes us like them, then kills them off. But I just got to the point where I didn't care for any of the characters anymore. The highly touted "feature" of "anyone can die!" made me not want to read anymore. I couldn't invest in any of the characters for fear they might die and the books became uninteresting to me.

Am I the only one?

I read A Game of Thrones for a group a couple of years ago and never picked up the second book. I liked what I read, but not enough to get dragged into that many ginormous volumes. (How cool is it that "ginormous" clears the Firefox spell-checker?) I really prefer stand-alone novels or series of no more than 3 volumes. I'll read longer series only if they're fluffy and quick reads.

I have to agree with the above. I, too, read the first book got invested in Eddard and was shocked at his death. Of the characters in the book, Eddard was the one I most enjoyed following and with his (poignant yet pointless) death found myself uninterested in following any of the others. Only the Imp held any fascination for me but not enough to justify continuing along.

I read A Game of Thrones a few years ago, but found it dreary and depressing. There were certain characters and other aspects that I liked, but they didn't seem to make up for the parts that I didn't enjoy as well. One of the few threads that carried me through the novel was Eddard and when he died, the series died for me.

However, with all the praise being thrown around lately, I can't help but think that I might give it another try at some point. We'll see...my "to-read" list is already pretty full.

I admire the hell out of the first book, but couldn't read any further. How many freaking characters can you cram into one 100,000 page epic? A lot, apparently. I need more characters to follow and identify with and less of what the maester/chamberlin/stable boy saw.

I read it several years ago (before a second book ever came out) and found it just kind of average.

If I remember it did suffer a little from the "50 characters in the first 50 pages" syndrome though.

I wish it had more magic. I think the first book only had magic on the last page. That was a good page though.

Tamahome wrote: "I wish it had more magic. I think the first book only had magic on the last page. That was a good page though."

Hehehehe

I was led to this as a 'Fantasy' and my first thought was "Were are the elves, orcs and dwarves" Tyrion didn't quite do it for me :)

That said still one of my favourite books

Doug wrote: "SPOILERS
...
After all he makes us like them, then kills them off.

I didn't have this problem, as I didn't particularly like Eddard. Also, I knew he was going to die for two reasons.

One, being serious, is that the book kind of told you it was going to happen. If someone does so many stupid things in a dangerous place, it's only a matter of time. To be honest, for his constant stupidity and utter selfishness, he sort of deserved to die.

Two, I heard Sean Bean had been cast in his role, and Bean never makes it to the end of anything without dying.

There are many other reasons why Game of Thrones didn't live up to the hype for me, but killing a main character wasn't one of them.

Luke wrote: "Doug wrote: Two, I heard Sean Bean had been cast in his role, and Bean never makes it to the end of anything without dying."

Troy. Him being cast as Odysseus, one of the few Greeks to make it back from the siege, kind of makes up for other character deaths.

Ix wrote: "Luke wrote: "Doug wrote: Two, I heard Sean Bean had been cast in his role, and Bean never makes it to the end of anything without dying."

Troy.

Well, I didn't make it to the end of Troy without giving up and doing something more entertaining. More entertaining like, you know, anything else but watching Troy.

Luke wrote: "I didn't have this problem, as I didn't particularly like Eddard. ... To be honest, for his constant stupidity and utter selfishness, he sort of deserved to die."

I'm curious why you thought he was so selfish? I got the impression he was trying to do right by his king.

Doug wrote: "I'm curious why you thought he was so selfish? I got the impression he was trying to do right by his king."

On one side: the lives of thousands of people, his family, his soldiers, the soldiers of his enemies, the stability of the realm, the lives of all the people in the realm who are affected by war, etc, etc, etc.

On the other side: the honor of one man.

To save thousands of lives, I'd sell out in an instant. As in, as soon as I knew what was up, I'd do what needed to be done to stop the Lannisters. That Eddard DIDN'T was both very, very stupid, and very, very selfish.

There is the right thing in regards to your honor, and there is the right thing in regards to the lives of everybody you have ever had contact with, and thousands upon thousands of people you have never met. Sometimes your honor needs to take a hit... "for the greater good."

I go into a lot more detail on my own podcast review of this book. SFBRP #095 if you're interested.

Doug wrote: "I'm curious why you thought he was so selfish? I got the impression he was trying to do right by his king"

That's Ned's problem right there. His duty should've been to the kingdom, not the king. And he screwed the kingdom as surely as Cersei did.

And doing right by the king would've been taking Renly's offer and seizing power immediately after Robert's death.

I didn't make it to the end of "A Song of Fire and Ice". At the time (at least 2 years ago), I was not crazy about the characters and the story was not compelling enough to keep me going. There were too many characters. I agreed with many of Luke's points on his SFBRP podcast.

Maybe I will pick it up again but I avoid big commitments on the unfinished serials.

Eric wrote: "I didn't make it to the end of "A Song of Fire and Ice". At the time (at least 2 years ago), I was not crazy about the characters and the story was not compelling enough to keep me going. There wer..."

Shhh, this is the discussion group of Sword and Laser. Don't mention my podcast here!

I just finished Game of Thrones, because I wanted to read it before watching the HBO program. Now I'm so angry! I knew a major character was going to die, because I had heard it alluded to in an interview with GRRM, but it was just such a shock to find out it was the MAJOR character in whom I was most invested! Not him, not like that!

Now I feel conflicted because although I think an author has the right to create their own story, I also feel somewhat betrayed. Because what Eddard did in the end seemed out of character to me.

Now I get that GRRM is telling a story where "the monsters win."

Tina wrote: "Now I get that GRRM is telling a story where "the monsters win." "

Like the T-Shirt says, i don't think it's as simple as that...

I mean, there's real characters development [spoiler]Jaime Lannister stopping being an utter creep and turning into a 'good guy'. I think it's that some of the things that happen are almost too 'real' for a fantasy novel; not just some of the brutality, but the fact that there is no over-riding destiny, which is either implicit or explicit in most fantasy. Bad things happen to good people and innocents, people make stupid decisions and sometimes reap worse consequences than they deserve. Although I do expect a happy ending, of sorts, it would surprise me if it were untrammeled joy and light.

David Bar Kirtley says you have to read at least the 1st 3 books to see how good it is.

I never got to Feast for Crows, The timeline was just too disjointed for me.

I got saddened from clash of kings onwards, but i read the rest of the books anyways because as hopeless and bleak as it was getting, there were still some good characters alive way the hell out in the wilderness that could always come back and throw down the traitors and vile usurpers.

And Ned wasn't only doing right by his king. He was doing right by his sister, and his friend Jon Arryn.

If ned is your only reason of liking GOT, i can see the problem. I was most invested in Arya and jon, and they, along with bran and Denserys, go through MASSIVE plot arcs and character development.

Tyrion just goes on being Tyrion, which is great, but if any of those other 4 characters interest you, you really should continue.

I finished book 4 last year, and just bought book 1 a couple days ago, and am rereading it. I am quite shocked how little i like Denerys, who happens to become one of my favorite characters later. Suffice to say that all the horrors she has to face early on are there for a good reason.

To the OP, no you're not the only one. I gave up after book three. I felt that I had slogged my way through this mess long enough. I felt annoyed by the endless and vast and seemingly pointless quantities of description, the huge array of characters with plots that didn't seem to be going anywhere important, and more.

Granted, this was several years ago, before "A Feast for Crows", but so much like Jordan, Martin seemed intent on further complicating the story with new and needless characters ever hundred pages or so. At some point there's just so many stories going on that I'd rather sit and read than take a bloody history lesson.

So, GMMR, take as long as you bloody want, I could care less anymore. Likewise to the Wheel of Time. As we all know, there are no beginnings or endings on the Wheel, there are only sequels. Maybe, if Sanderson EVER finishes, I'll start over. But I doubt it.

In preemptive self-defense, it isn't the length of the novels. I just pored through Name of the Wind and Wise Man's Fear in about two weeks or so, and thoroughly enjoyed both.

In defense of Sanderson, he HAS put out 2 books since he took the job 3 years ago. And i feel pretty happy with how things are finishing up.

Early prognosis for the last one is early 2012, and judging by his twitter feed, he's pretty active so it seems probable for now.

Yeah, Sanderson has been churning out the books. He certainly isn't pulling the GRRM trick. I did make it to Path of Daggers, but I couldn't now tell you what it was about, I'm not sure that I even care anymore...

Hell, Fuzzx, if you enjoy them more power to you. I don't want to say you shouldn't, just that they're not really for me anymore, very much like SoI&F.

I'm about 1/3 of the way through the first Game of Thones book and I can already tell I will not be reading more of them. Too many characters, too drawn out and too dark for my taste. I have to admit I am not a big fantasy reader to begin with. I did enjoy The First Law series by Joe Abercrombie a great bit, but Game of Thrones is just not doing it for me. Ill finish the book and continue watching the TV show.

Well, George did a guinness world record for having the most characters in an audio book for A Game of Thrones with 224, which of course he beat it already with A Storm of Swords.

Tim wrote: "Hell, Fuzzx, if you enjoy them more power to you. I don't want to say you shouldn't, just that they're not really for me anymore, very much like SoI&F. "

heh, im passionate about the series, but i can't in good conscience say i really love it.

When the last book came out i bought it and read it cover to cover in one shot,(4pm to 10am the next day, if i recall, thanks the gods for wacky university schedules...) But i've learned to skip the paragraph long description of a persons clothes during every introduction plus the regular pauses to talk about what kind of tea they are drinking.

To bring this back on topic, i feel like you choose what you like and focus on that. I am looking forward to the Arya, Denerys and Jon sections of the story during my re-read, and will struggle through the Cat and Sansa sections as best i can, I currently don't feel like reading much because of the darkness i know lies ahead, but at the same time, i know the cool stuff as well and that keeps me going.

My enjoyment of the books went downhill fast after Clash of Kings, I'm never actually finished Feast for Crows (and based on the fact that I've been involved in many many spoilerish discussions of the series since without ever feeling spoiled on the bits I missed, that pretty much confirms that nothing interesting happens.

Interesting things are happening...just not regarding the characters we want to know about.
Plus, the return/rise of magic in the world is pretty interesting, even if you don't like certain people.

Upon re-reading all these posts, I think my biggest issue is that it feels like a reality TV show that's being aired as it's shot. The plot feels all over the place.

^ true to the book.

I decided long ago that I need to stop reading a series after a certain point until it is complete. I haven't read past book 6 of the Wheel of Time. I won't read that until I know that no more books will be released.

Song of Ice & Fire has become a similar situation. GRRM infuriates me for many reasons. He manages to hook me on a different character every time he kills one of my favorites. He also seems to be more involved in pretty much everything except finishing the series. I think he's bought into what the sycophants are telling him. Every time I read a report on something he's said, the thought "Arrogant, much?" runs through my mind.

I don't have HBO, so I don't have to (or get to) watch the series until it comes out on dvd...I will wait to buy the next book until it's out in paperback. I don't know when I'll actually read it. I may wait until he's managed to find the time to finish the series...which may be decades from now.

This isn't my favorite series, but I have to say that it is generally very fun to read for me. Martin has a thrilling style to his writing even though the story is getting ridiculously convoluted without actually accomplishing much plotwise. The characters and places seem tangible and real somehow, however, and I continue to be interested in what will happen next despite thinking that it'll take a miracle to tie all of these loose threads up within Martin's lifetime at the current rate.

I really don't get all the hate on unfinished series. I love knowing there will be more to read in the future! These books are huge, which means: a) they obviously take a long time to write, and b) there's definitely going to be content you missed on your first read to pick up on a second or third pass if you're desperate for more of the same world. There are plenty of LoTR-esque trilogies out there, why is it such a sin for longer series to exist alongside them?

I think it's just frustration - waiting for the world and characters we've become so connected to to continue. But i've always been of the opinion that i'd prefer it to be good than fast.

I am not to in to it. Seems to me that GoT is another stab at world building that many authors have done. I don't say that to diminsih the accomplishment just that there is so much of this stuff out there it is hard for me to get into another big series....I think I have hit the wall for this stuff....I was reading GoT and then went to Ambercrombie's series and it was hard to differientiate the two in my mind as they seemed variations on a theme and not real distinct stories to me...

I don't think it's unreasonable to wait a couple of years for a longer book. More than that & the author needs to (a) write smaller books, or (b) sit down & write rather than flit about basking in his fame. (Did that sound bitter? Ah, well.) When an author has to put up a page on his or her website that specifically addresses when the next book in the series will be released, & WHEN IT DOES NOT GET UPDATED for over 2 years, that's excessive.

I believe an author has a responsibility to his audience. These are the people that fund his lifestyle. Melanie Rawn is starting to earn a reputation as an author who can't finish series (she has 2 trilogies out with only 2 books written in each, & is now starting another, with no apparent intention to return to finish what she started). How long are readers going to invest in her books?

Yes, GRRM is an engaging writer. If he had continued to produce a book in the series every couple of years, no one would have even questioned him. His attitude, in general & towards those that expect something from him, is less than professional, in my opinion.

It starts with frustration. If, however, an author shows a lack of appreciation for his readers when they express that frustration, it can turn into something more.

That seems like a very entitled attitude. Not to channel the "he's not your bitch" thing, but really, he's the one writing it, he's never asked you or me for anything aside from the price of the book. I'd much rather wait 5+ years between books than have this series go down the WoT route, with the quality slipping severely in the middle. And I love that he's so involved with the HBO series.

Could be that I just feel more generous than someone who's been in since the beginning since I only picked them up a couple of years ago. All the same, I've been perfectly happy filling my epic fantasy quota with Brandon Sanderson and Patrick Rothfuss while I wait.

to echo the above, i feel for the people that have been fans since the beginning. I only got involved when we all read the book last year.

As someone who got into the wheel of time almost 10 years ago now (oh man... i just realized how far back that really was! middle school (:0)

which is why i don't really mind the delays TOO much.

I probably am something of an elitist, at least as far as my books go. It's something I try to work on. On the other hand, I disagree that he's never asked me for anything aside from the price of the book. By leaving major issues unresolved, by not completing any of the stories, he asks me to wait in breathless anticipation for the next book. And the next, and so on.

Honestly, the problem for me here is not so much the wait as the lack of anything resembling responsibility. Readers today are very savvy. Rather than leave a page up saying "I'll let you know when something changes" for years, I wish he had done some sort of blog, updated every 6-9 months. Tell us at the beginning "I painted myself into a corner & now have to tiptoe my way out," or "I'm working on something special for this character & it's taking longer than I thought." I really don't think that would have been asking too much.

My issue with his attitude is that he seems almost flippant towards those who have been patiently waiting for the continuation of this series for half a decade now.

He's not my bitch. I'm just saying I'm not his, either.

I've gotten used to waiting with GRRM, and I'm okay with it. I just hope he can finish his story for us.

I read AGoT and ACoK (I like that last acronym) about 10 years ago. (The show is really my refresher for the plot.) It's been a while, but I seem to remember it took forever to get a proper paperback for ASoS (I couldn't afford the HC at the time), and then AFfC was of course 5 years in the making and 6 years following that ADwD is finally coming.

The waits have been numerous, but I always have such a huge list of amazing books yet to read that I tend not to care.

It seems that every book in Song of Ice & Fire has left me depressed and unsatisfied. GRRM is good at setting the hooks. There are interesting characters and central mysteries. But the likable characters either meet tragic and gruesome death or are reduced to a desperate and degenerate existence. I don't need every moment in a book to be happy or light but this series seem to take to opposite to an extreme. On top of this little is done to advance some of the mysteries that are introduced early in the story. I think the only reason I have kept reading up to this point was the hope that there would be a payoff for all the blood and tragedy. But so far there has not been and I have little faith at this point that there will be.

GRRM has stated that many of the lesser mysteries will be solved at this point, and things will move forward from there. ADWD is set in the same timeline as AFFC, but just different characters.

Given his notorious comments about lost and unsatisfying endings, i think the books will either end great or he'll die trying and just not finish it at all.

either way, we will be is a much better position to judge in 69 days(and counting!)

Glad to see I'm not the only one that isn't crazy about this series. I started AGoT, put it down after about 50 pages, and it took me over a year to pick it back up and finish it. By the end I thought it was starting to get a little more interesting, so I bought ACoK and still haven't started it. I don't know why I feel this way about the books, because I do seem to get more into it if I can get into the book a little ways, but the hype seems a little overblown?

I think I've read a bit too much epic fantasy over the last few years. The similarities of all the stories and the fact that the books are SOOOOOOO long has become a bit wearing.

OTOH, I really liked Bitter Seeds, Daemon/Freedom, Zero Hour, and Blindsight so maybe I just need more laser.

Books are like shoes. If you try one and it doesn't fit, stop reading it and try another. There's nothing unusual about not liking SOIAF. Not everybody loves Dune, or The Ender's Game series, or (gods help us) The Twilight series.

I really enjoy series as I love a deep, well thought out story with lots of background. This takes multiple books. However, I've grown very frustrated with waiting decades for stories to be told. Alternately, I realize that these things take time and the author is not my slave. The result is that I no longer even begin series till I know they are done. I only last summer read the mammoth Legend of the Seeker series. Yes, I know more are now coming, but the point is that what is coming is another "grouping" and I won't read those till they're done.

I only read GoT once the first 3 books were out and someone misinformed that it was done. My mistake not checking the oracle / internet for confirmation.

George Martin, take your time, do it right and let me know when you're done... also please don't pull a Robert Jordan on us, eh?

I'm off to grab the Shadowmarch series now that all 4 of those are out and done.

I read 2.5 of these books and just couldn't continue. It felt like pulling teeth to make it through a book. Not sure why that is, too many characters? I hated that I had to reference the glossary all the time to remember who the people were. I have read other books with similar glossaries but never had to reference them.

I'm now halfway through the 2nd book and I think I appreciate the first one more at this point. The 2nd one seems to add a richer dimension to the characters. I have gone through the grieving process over Ned. But I'm afraid I am starting to care too much about some of the other characters, like Arya. I think GRRM has me right where he wants me...

I'm not as big on Fantasy as I used to be and only started the series because of the HBO series. That being said I picked AGOT when Audible had it on sale for 1 credit last month and have since depleted my accumulated credits on the series.

What I like the most about the series is that in many ways it is not likable. So many books follow the same '...and they lived happily ever after' formula that that they all began to run together for me. While the books are long and Martin seems to enjoy dragging out the misery, what I think I'm going to dislike the most is the long (perceived) gap between A Dance with Dragons and the followup now that I'm into AFFC.