SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

You, go Georgina! It is a shame so many authors give all authors a bad name by behaving so rudely. We might all get more benefit if everyone participated more and advertised less.

I belong to another group and it amazes me how authors come in and post their new releases that have nothing to do with the genre of the group. If a group clearly states that it is for this particular group only, it's rude and annoying when an author pops in promoting their book that isn't of that genre. This leads me to believe they're just popping it on every group they can.

It's true, they can sound and behave like used car salesmen and I wish they'd get it in their heads that it's a big turnoff.

Chaeya

that is so true =P

And that there is more to life than pitching books!

Chaeya wrote: "This leads me to believe they're just popping it on every group they can."

I've seen it, the simultaneous drop. My husband and I have a term for it, but I won't say it here (although it's very apt and quite funny).

Bridget wrote: "We might all get more benefit if everyone participated more and advertised less. "

Absolutely. And it's fun.

I'm busy writing my second installment. Today, I went to the Los Angeles Times Festival of Books and had a ball. I spoke with some indie bookstores who I politely asked the procedure in which to submit my book for them to possibly carry. It warmed my heart to see such support for indie authors and the number of people who came out to purchase their books. The rest of the time I spent standing in line to see an interview with Anne Rice and then standing in another long line to get her to sign her two books. I told her that I've been trying 30 years to meet her and she was joyed that I'd seen her the previous week at the RT Booklover's Convention and that I was successful not more than a week later.

I've been promoing here and there, but I'm writing far more and I really don't like begging people to read my books---they either want to or they don't, it's as simple as that. The important thing is that the readers are the true promoters, people listen to them far more than they listen to us writers.

Chaeya

Yes, we write, put it out there, and then I think, should go back to writing again. I don't drop my books, if people are interested they can find them.

Anne Rice, now that would have been a treat!

I definitely do mention my book (I just released my first one so that's book, singular, for now) but since it's SciFi, yeah, I only mention it in SciFi groups. Chaeya, sooooo true that some authors just don't even bother to stop and think of what they're doing. I'm in a couple of M/M Romance groups, forex, and it would never cross my mind to post about my SciFi book there. One of the M/M Romance authors has a spinoff group for his SciFi/gay fiction and I've considered posting there but it's HIS group. I don't feel right trying to snatch his fans out of his own group. I private-messaged a couple but only because we've spoken in discussions on his group previously. Even then, I felt sooo tacky hawking my wares and not writing for any other reason.

I like to mention I'm an author and how my book relates to other SciFi books when I join a discussion in a SciFi group and we're talking about books anyway. But other than using the ASSIGNED DISCUSSION FOLDER, I can't imagine why someone thinks it's okay to spam a group on Goodreads.

I had a happenstance last summer when I used to run a "Freebie Friday" under my "writing advice" name and someone kept spamming my threads, following on my notes about this week's free reads on my blog. They posted after mine everytime, verbatim, asking for people to send files to them at some email address and pitching some "free offer" of their own. It was annoying enough that OTHER members of the group reported them. I'd already reported them as a spammer so when the group noted on one of my threads that they had, too, I was immensely pleased. It was in one of those "free giveaways" groups. I mean, the whole group was nothign BUT sales pitches and yet there was STILL a nice way and a not nice way to do it ;-)

No one likes to be spammed or hit by a fly-by poster's sales pitch.

What's the group's policy on an author putting an ad for their book at the bottom of their post?

Personally, it turns me off, but obviously that doesn't mean that people shouldn't be allowed to choose to do it.

Agreed with Jeff.

I've stuck to the initial policy that Nick implemented, which is that if an author is actually engaging with the group, even if an ad (which I agree is distasteful) is tacked on, I leave things be, but if the tone of the post that is "engaging with the group" is merely a veiled excuse for the ad, I will delete the comment. Anything that is just an add is gone. And once in a while, when the lines are blurred, I will simply move the post to the goodreads authors folder. Of course, I don't always catch everything, as there are just too many threads in our group these days. But if you find an offending or offensive post, please point me in the right direction and I will take care of it.

It's never bothered me when an author has a link to their book after their signature. They do it on other forums I belong to. The main issue is when they're posting long advertisements about their books on threads that aren't promotional threads or if there is a discussion, they have use every available opportunity to pump their book. People are getting sick of it, including authors.

Chaeya

Jeff wrote: "What's the group's policy on an author putting an ad for their book at the bottom of their post?

Personally, it turns me off, but obviously that doesn't mean that people shouldn't be allowed to ..."

Okay, I have to say I hope I'm not being paranoid or self-absorbed to say it but I feel like this is specifically aimed at me, given as I JUST started putting the following as my sign in the bottom of all my posts on Goodreads today:

((begin quote for reference))
-Friday
@phoenicianbooks

Conditioned Response "A SciFi Thriller to Remember--if You Can!"
#1 Hottest SciFi | #1 Human Male [alien female] Mates | #4 Best Dystopian Originals

((end quote for reference))

I haven't been on this group "for years" but I've been here since last summer (July I think it was since that's when I began getting active on Goodreads) and I only just this weekend launched a book, so until this weekend, my only reference to any book was "I don't have anything published yet but soon!"

I've definitely enjoyed several of the less "strict" conversations on this group, some of the chat or talk genre chit-chats and I've been pushing LMB's new Vor book for 2-3 weeks now (sans the above sig text of course since again, I JUST launched 2 days ago; hence why I'm tooting my horn at already climbing Goodreads lists at lightning speed. It's kind of mind-blowing)

If I'm offending people here, please just say so, by name, specifically and explicitly and don't make allusions or generalizations. I cannot change my behavior based on allusions and generalizations.

Sid, you specifically engaged me in a conversation earlier this morning (two posts that carried my sig) and neither time mentioned it so I'm a little thrown that you come over here to this thread and say yeah, you agree it's offensive. Was it me or someone ELSE who offended you? I'm asking directly. Please answer directly.

I definitely am not trying to break rules and you'll notice my post upthread where I say how it offends ME when authors do fly-by sales posts or incessant sales pitches. I definitely prefer someone put a link in their sig to passively sell rather than incessantly sales-pitching in the middle of another covnersation. It's grating and annoying to constantly have a conversation veered off thread just for a sales pitch.

I'm a reader as much as I am an author. I'm a member of this group and although I'm less than a year-long member here, I kind of thought I was participatory (as much as time permits me to be on Goodreads at ALL, which is sometimes one hour in two weeks but I try; I LIKE it here, way better than Facebook and Twitter. Less noise!)

Shall I even put a sig here. Let's not and I'll say I did LOL.

(ETA: first post on this page 2 of the thread is me, saying I just joined the group a few months ago; this is one of my TWO identities on Goodreads. Yeah, I have another one, a whole other writing career in Romantic Suspense. I've taken to posting as Friday in this group since January when I created that ID so that's when this "me" officially "joined" this group but I've definitely been here since last summer posting as someone else and have occasionally even recently posted as both of "me" on LMB discussions about Ivan, His Booke. Just thought I should note I've got TWO identities here, for the sake of full disclosure and accuracy.)

You're right, it was prompted by yours, but I've seen others. Definitely did not mean to target you, though you did make me think to bring it up. This, not other threads on which you and others comment, seems to be the place to talk about it. Bringing it up elsewhere would just hijack that thread.

I'm not offended by it. I didn't call you out by name because I don't think that you have done anything that would justify it.

I'm just giving my impression of the practice for discussion which seems to be on-topic for this thread: It sometimes makes me wonder if the ad isn't the true purpose of the post, or at least if the presence of the ad doesn't lead the poster to post more than they otherwise would. I'm not saying this is the case for you, just explaining my earlier statement that "it turns me off."

As I mentioned before, this doesn't mean that you should or should not do it.

I think the presence of a lot of outright spam, the kind of thing which this group admirably aims to stop, really hurts other promotions that aren't so bad.

Probably if it weren't in the context of a ton of spam, and a lot of authors who do only contribute in order to push their books, small signatures including promotions probalby would not bother me.

I think, because it's not stated explicitly, and because this is one of the LEAST spammy groups on Goodreads despite having 6,342 members, we should have it spelled out in no uncertain terms (yea or nay) if links in a sig are okay or not okay.

If OFFICIALLY okay to insert links into a sig, knowing us SF/F types as I do :) I think the sig length should be specified as "X" lines long or number of characters or number of links or something that puts a limit on it, so you don't get a list a half a screen long of links. I've seen those, too, a sign with 8 links to everything in the world.

I think I've seen it all. I've been online since DARPAnet days (1985 with my little fax/modem that I thought was *SO* fast at 1200 baud hahahaha)

I didn't enjoy being the brunt of this but I definitely am glad to have spawned the thought process and hope one of the Mods is reading this and will modify the Rulez appropriately. In a previous life, I became famous for saying "Stupid rules are meant to be changed, not broken." (Now let's see how good your Googling skills are, folks! Hint: I"m an actual, bonafide rocket scientist and this is just a pen name LOL). The lack of a rule on sigs in a SciFi group is stupid...or silly if not stupid. People use sigs everywhere and most places DO have rulez about the content of the sigs not exceeding readership's tolerance for sales pitches.

-Friday

Most forums, sigs are an automatic thing. So rules and regs regarding them are usually in place. Here on GR they have to be manually added by the poster to each post and so most don't even bother with them.

Personally I find them cumbersome, annoying and pointless. ymmv.

Because so many fora have different rules, not to mention different formatting (I'm on Baen's Bar and there I have to put [url=...] instead of a normal HTML anchor tag) I keep a text file open when I'm cruising sites and posting. I just copy paste and I'm done. It's pretty automatic for me - I actually have to keep STOPPING myself here (esp since I'm concurrently post on the Bar right now too LOL)

-Friday
@phoenicianbooks
(is my twitter okay? hahahaha, that was for you, Jeff!)

Georgina wrote: "Georgina Taylor (Meabel) | 55 comments Just have to say I know both of Friday's identities and she is NO spammer. In fact I always check out her posts when I come onto GR as they are guaranteed to be interesting (yes, and long). :) (Cheque in the mail please..hee hee)."

Awwww, thank you, Gina. I wuv you, too!

And yeah! I can't believe the list actions today. Did you see the latest? I just took #2 on the and OMFG that's HIGHER than Brave New World which is the book that spawned much of Conditioned Response. It's got me a little freaked out. I mean the world has to be ending for me to top Huxley. That's just wrong.

Also not quite right but stunning to see is I'm #28 out of 303 books on the Best Science Fiction by a Female Author list--that's up there with my IDOL, Lois McMaster Bujold (as I've established on other threads in this group, I am totally a Bujold Fangrrl, Lois's utterly loyal Minion, I even voted for HER books on this list!)

I think it's a good thing I return to the day job for two 14-hr shifts in the next 48 hours or I might spend another day watching the book rise to #1 on more lists and tweeting the results every hour (haha) Had a good first day of sales though so it was worth it. This business end of being an Indie Author is exhausting! Just keeping up with the Rulez everywhere is a challenge ((smirk)) Yeah, that was for you, too, Jeff!

-Friday
@phoenicianbooks

I'm not around on GR as much as I used to be, but I love the book recommendations I ultimately get from the clubs and my friends here. It annoys me that authors are butting into that with no respect to their future readers (well, probably not future readers since they'll make a mental note to avoid that author at all costs). I love GR as a reader, though I eventually would like to have a place here for my own books as well. That, though, shouldn't be the main focus. This is a site for reading, not for promoting and being selfish.

/end rant.

Good rant though :)

Georgina wrote: "Good rant though :)"

Thanks, haha. Seems a lot of people feel this way (judging by this thread). It's a shame writers aren't as attentive to that sometimes, though not always on purpose.

I think the thing is we writers who object to such behaviour are likely to read and respond to this thread. I don't know if the spammers would bother, they are too busy spamming :)

Good point. Never thought about that. Heh.

Georgina wrote: "I think the thing is we writers who object to such behaviour are likely to read and respond to this thread. I don't know if the spammers would bother, they are too busy spamming :)"

Very good point. Kind of make this thread seem useless now...

Experiment BL626 wrote: "Georgina wrote: "I think the thing is we writers who object to such behaviour are likely to read and respond to this thread. I don't know if the spammers would bother, they are too busy spamming :)..."

Nah. It's good for ranting still. :D

Elisa wrote: "Georgina wrote: "Good rant though :)"

Thanks, haha. Seems a lot of people feel this way (judging by this thread). It's a shame writers aren't as attentive to that sometimes, though not always on p..."

It's the primary reason I stopped even looking at the Amazon forums (and never bothered starting with the Kindleboards, Nookboards and other sales-centric sites. I want to discuss the books, themselves, whether mine or someone else's that I love and am excited about. (ETA: I completely diverted a thread last week or the week before just to gush about the fact Lois McMaster Bujold is releasing Ivan, His Booke (aka Captain Vorpatril's Alliance) and to really push people to pre-order it. I want to see her sales records on Vor books go up so she'll keep writing them. This could well be the last one *choke*

I gush about books I'm excited about and love to read and want others to read, too, because I think they'll love them. That's the POINT of Goodreads, you know? And I'm sorry, but I really DO love my own books. I've been writing since I was 9, am 51 and when I started looking "in the drawer" at 46 to consider finally publishing something, I actually got lost reading my own stuff for a few months. Not deciding. Just reading. I claimed I was deciding where to start but I was totally self-indulgent pleasure-reading ;-)

I can't count how many people in the last two or so years since I joined Goodreads (I have two pen names / IDs) I've told that's the reason I love Goodreads so much. I explain it's reader-centered and they don't even sell the books here, that when no money is trading hands, I think people talk about a thing differently than they do in, say, a store's checkout line. Fellow authors give that "scratches head, then what's the point if you're not selling books?" look. ((sigh)) and fellow readers ask for the site's address. It's not as though my gushing about my book isn't close enough to a sales pitch that people here on GR yesterday weren't calling me spammer! I even had one person actually mark my book as "decided not to read" on their "over the top promotion" shelf. Who even MAKES a shelf called "over the top promotion?? Ugh. Does your keyboard really not have a DELETE key because I've been using computers since 1985 and I have yet to find one that doesn't have a DELETE key not to mention a "next" (right arrow, page down, or ENTER) button.

I think I'm pissed at this reaction to my gushing because it's not half as pushy as these other authors who think they need to get people interested in checking out their work by beating them on the head with sales links. I think it's that diffference: I'm excited about my story and want to share the excitement. They're impatient to get sales and want to press harder to force them on.

I think if an author wants to gush about their story, and anyone is interested in hearing it, they should be allowed to do so, as they would be if gushing about say, Bujold as I was for Ivan, His Booke. The problem lies in showing up out of nowhere, saying nothing but "Buy my book!!" and then making it insult added to injury, just vanishing. I've even seen people ask "So what's the book about? " and they author's not even there anymore to answer! THAT is what I call SPAM, not my tooting my own horn about Goodreads lists. I think it's WAY kewel (and a little wrong) that my brand-new release just surpassed classics on lists. I did not do the voting nor doctor it. THAT is why I'm so excited by the voting results. I simply reported it, excitedly because it's exciting, and people kept voting.

I apologize for this diversion from the earlier conversation ut it's an important "debate" and needed to be said (on all sides). I'm neither ranting nor offended nor, I hope, pissing anyone else off with these additional remarks. I'm not trying to sound defensive and I hope I don't. I really don't feel defensive here, but I'm angry that spammy authors make it impossible for someone like me (or Georgina or a lot of other Goodreads authors I ran into yesterday) to even MENTION we actually HAVE a book let alone promote it--in the actual promotion folders! Oh yeah, I always read a new groups rules, look for the "authors, promote here" folder and restrict my pitch to that. I even asked yesterday in another group for Moderators to decide if my book is even appropriate to be pitched in the promo folder. I can't be further from a spammer but I am VERY excited about my book after 2 days of being on sale. This is my "break out novel." I've felt it as I've been editing it and I am seeing it as I start releasing it into the wild. I think I have a right to be excited about being on the verge of success after being (literally) a starving artist to get here. I work a hard, physical labor job just to get my time freed up to write and publish books. This book's release this weekend is kind of a pinnacle achievement for me.

I shall be mostly offline the next 2 days, so not "flying by" LOL just working the coal mines aka day job (not really a coal mine though I am in No. Carolina/USA where coal mining is common wage work so you never know! haha) Actually I wonder if I could make a more decent living coal-mining...hmmm...goes off to current sucky day job with new idea.

-Friday
@phoenicianbooks

Georgina wrote: "I think the thing is we writers who object to such behaviour are likely to read and respond to this thread. I don't know if the spammers would bother, they are too busy spamming :)"

Spot on, Gina!

Georgina wrote: And the chance to talk to other writers about writing! Ahh, I've been totally isolated in that regard for so long. The whole GR book/writing thing is wonderful. Seriously, writing was a solitary and lonely occupation, now it's not. That's part of the gush :)

Writing is still very much a solitary activity for me. I keep trying to talk to people in real life about it but where I work and live, no one cares about books, let alone wants to hear about mine as though my book couldn't possibly be worth reading or they'd have heard about it on TV. Yeah, TV, their measure of "worth."

I keep reminding myself, Karma's a bi**h in boots--with spiky high heels (yes, Gina, you may requote me :-) I've been saying that a lot lately, in my other ID, on Twitter with all the plagiarism bruhaha going on over bloggers scraping sites.

I'm here on Goodreads for the love of the written word. Not the love of the Mighty Dollar (though I wouldn't mind if I could sell my books enough to quit the frakkin day job ;-)))

-Friday

Love it! Yes will be quoting you (how did you know I would? :))

Because I actually read and pay attention to what you say :P

You know what was worse? Before I had a book published and I'd say I'm a writer, people would ask me, automatically, as though this is all that matters, "Oh? What have you written? Maybe I've seen one of your books somewhere?" or less, veiled insult, just a direct contemptuous, "Are you published? with the implied Of course, you're not. expectation.

No one understood the concept of writing art for art's sake. I did that for over 30 years. I had lists of readers who wanted to read my stuff at every office job I worked. It only took one person reading something of mine and *bam* others would come and ask to be next on the list (this is back in the days of paper, when I had ONE manuscript on paper I could lend out) For me, it was enough to have that kind of localized fandom and interest, but for the world, only money speaks. At 46 I figured, if not now, when. (to quote the great Jewish Sage, Hillel ;-))

OK, I'm not about to publish a book, so I'm saying this from a neutral POV: I actually don't mind if an author makes comments that subtly point me in the direction of their books. I mean, I can't help having sympathy for indie authors; one has to start somewhere, and publishers don't always look for "good" lit, they look for what they think will sell.

So I think it's quite possible to find good lit amongst self-published authors; in fact, I've found at least 1 or 2 really good ones so far. (And you can't always tell if it's going to be good or not).

Plus the "big" publishers often push dreck. It's all in the marketing, I tell ya.

What I really hate though is when you belong to about 15 groups like I do, and suddenly your RSS feed gets swamped by some erotica author pushing their wares ad nauseam, onto a gazillion threads in almost every group in existence on GR.

Also, I think it's fine if an author mentions their book/s once or twice. It's when they get persistent that it becomes... unpleasant.

The dreaded cluster drop...

And thanks, Traveller for your support for indie writing. :) You may find these two links amusing. Famous rejection letters:
http://susiesmith13.tripod.com/id12.html
http://www.writersservices.com/mag/m_...

An example:

"Lolita by Vladimir Nabokov

‘... overwhelmingly nauseating, even to an enlightened Freudian … the whole thing is an unsure cross between hideous reality and improbable fantasy. It often becomes a wild neurotic daydream … I recommend that it be buried under a stone for a thousand years.’"

Richard wrote: "All the names should be taken off all the books on everyone's shelves immediately. Some of the titles need toning down as well. Disgusting publicity. In fact we should have no names on comments- so rude. No adverts for anything, anywhere. Bog of authors, you disgust me, trying to sell. Who the hell do you think you are?
Don't buy anything, ever, that is advertised- so common, so in one's face. BAN THEM, BAN THEM, BAN,Ban, yes BAN TALKING... "

ROTFLMAO and sooo glad I wasn't drinking as I read this!! OMG, thank you. I really, really needed that, Richard :)

Oh and may I suggest the #4 Best Dystopian Original (right after MY book, of course!) which has a title with numbers that correspond with a temperature (American, but of course!) and is about burning books?

It's written by the same guy who wrote about Martians so much they got Rock Hudson to do a movie of his book! Hmm, now what was that one called? ::taps temple::

@Traveller, like Gina, I thank you for supporting Indie Authors just by having an open mind and understanding we really do need to tell people about our books if we want them get read! :) I'd love for you to read the sample of my book, since you like dark stories (mine is definitely a dystopian setting) and mysteries (mine is a SciFi Thriller that definitely reads more like a mystery but I am not remotely close to writing like Sir Arthur :-( One must have something to which to aspire, right? So that's my goal: learn to write mysteries like a master sleuth!

@Marjorie: My program is choc-n-block at the mo, but I'd be happy to have a look at your baby ...let's see... anytime in June should be fine!

..but I warn you, I've lost a friendship already because I didn't enjoy one of my friends novels, and he was miffed that I didn't praise it.

So I'm not the kind of person who will tell you I think it's wonderful if I don't really think so.

Sadly, this is part of the risk of being an artist/author, right? The hurt feelings if someone doesn't think you've created an awesome 'baby'!

(I know, because I used to paint, and though my stuff was generally liked, the popular ones were not always the ones that I liked best!)

Indeed, it's strange what makes certain of one's creations popular - sometimes it's beyond the understanding of the artist/author, and you feel that people simply aren't seeing what you wanted them to see in your pet creation...

Traveller said: "Sadly, this is part of the risk of being an artist/author, right? The hurt feelings if someone doesn't think you've created an awesome 'baby'!"

We have to learn to distance ourselves from our creations, either as writers or as artists, or we simply don't last the distance. (At least not with our ears, or sanity, intact).

Georgina wrote: "Traveller said: "Sadly, this is part of the risk of being an artist/author, right? The hurt feelings if someone doesn't think you've created an awesome 'baby'!"

We have to learn to distance oursel..."

Yeah, there should be support groups for people involved in creative pursuits, for when they summon the courage to "show" their creations to the world. It's amazing how thick-skinned some people can be, but mois, I have a tender little ego, I'm afraid...

Traveller wrote: "@Marjorie: My program is choc-n-block at the mo, but I'd be happy to have a look at your baby ...let's see... anytime in June should be fine!

That would be wonderful, actually! Since you're now saying you'd like to read the book, I'm going to risk being called a spammer again and give you the title and linkiness now. Please shelve Conditioned Response on your TBR shelf and/or read the free sample before you buy from Smashwords (you can save it to your Smashwords library, similar to a Goodreads "to read" shelf) or buy from Amazon Kindle (also available in all international Kindle Stores, just change the ".com" to your country's code).

It's priced higher at Kindle because Amazon charges me more and pays me less. I think I still make better royalties at Smashwords but they charge international customers VAT and taxes so it might come out the same in the end for non-US customers (I seem to know a lot of non-US readers). Here's a tip, since you're not going to read it for a while anyway, I plan to participate in the annual site-wide Summer/Winter Sale at Smashwords which is the entire month of July. I'll have it discounted at various rates, changing my discounts all month long.

..but I warn you, I've lost a friendship already because I didn't enjoy one of my friends novels, and he was miffed that I didn't praise it.

TBH, one of my own sisters found fault with this book (repeatedly, over the years) and as a result, Shayla, the lead character has changed dramatically from who she was in the original 1986 draft. I think honest feedback is the only way for a writer to grow as an author.

I also think any friendship which actually ends over an honest critique of a book or other artistic creation is not a really solid friendship to start with--and you and I just met here, yesterday, so we aren't friends yet :) Be as honest as you like!! :-D

So I'm not the kind of person who will tell you I think it's wonderful if I don't really think so.

Thank you. I don't want to lose my perfect 5-star rating, but if you don't like book 5 stars worth, please rate it lower. I wish they had a better resolution on the stars, actually. I always want to give half stars in between the 5 levels. I think some of the readers of this group and others were so offended by my one (just ONE) day of attempting to promote my book (day TWO of sales, also, I'd just released it!) that if they could, they would give it a one-star rating just to hurt its rating and rankings on the lists. Some people are just mean and nasty or spiteful. As I said elsethread, Karma's a bi**h in boots--with spiky high heels.

Sadly, this is part of the risk of being an artist/author, right? The hurt feelings if someone doesn't think you've created an awesome 'baby'!

(I know, because I used to paint, and though my stuff was generally liked, the popular ones were not always the ones that I liked best!)"

Another one of my sisters is a visual artist (painter) and I was a sculptor. I think the visual arts are an entirely different kind of experience. People judge visual art differently--and no one but the creator can actually edit visual art.

I do know the "my baby!" feeling to which you refer, however. I felt it about every new story I wrote from the time I started writing (age 9) until about 2005 (age 45). Writers who choose to publish and become Authors have a different responsibility than writing for the sheer joy of it. After I spent 40 years of writing "art for art's sake" (not for publication) I've discovered that writing for sale is very different experience, emotionally. I still feel the "my baby" feelings during the creation process (it's still an artistic process of creation, after all) but once I start polishing and editing and preparing it for sale to others, I don't feel the same "my baby" feelings.

Maybe I'm just so old now that I have matured past that -- or matured as an artist, anyway. I think it has a lot more to do with approaching it during the editing stages as a business activity, not an artistic one anymore. I change the child, and a different "me" works on it. I can't do both at once. I have to finish writing and go into editing mode--I become a ruthless murderer of "my darlings" in editing mode.

I still have some pet phrases and kernel ideas that are definitely in the "my baby" category, but I think when I quit a power corporate job in 2005 to learn how the publishing industry works and give being a full-time writer and author a try, I pretty much had to learn how to shed the parental attachment and controls over my "art." I had to learn how to edit. Finally.

Now, while I think Conditioned Response is worthy of the title "work of art," I also definitely spent the months since last July working with an editorial team of 8 people to make it a salable piece of commercial product. Basically, they helped me strip my child naked and re-clothe her in the gilded fabrics of the world economical market.

I have complete faith in my book. I also expect the book to find its way into the hands of people who either don't "get" it, don't like my distinctive style of storytelling (it's really a love or a hate; I doubt anyone will be blase about my style) or just can't stand my writer's "voice." There are also going to be those who just flat out didn't realize it was a Dystopian SciFi Thriller with a lot of sex and are offended by one or more of those aspects of it. Those people will rate it a 1 star saying it's a terrible "machine turned man" story. They will have missed the point. I shall thank them for spending their time reading it anyway.

:: braces for the future ::

Thanks, Traveller. I promise you I write books VERY differently than I write posts (I write books like my characters; I write posts like me :-))

-Friday
@phoenicianbooks

Quite the philosophical discussion on the meaning of art - for 5:30 in the morning!

Yeah, sure you did, Gina! :) Actually, I think visual art is more personal which is weird because ALL of my characters have at least one little piece of me in them and when I write, I literally stand up and act out a scene to get the logistics right in my head before I write it. I still feel like it's more personal to have some image or thing out there being judged by total strangers who may or may not "get" what I was trying to say. With books/words, it's a pretty good bet they'll get what I was trying to say; they just might not like the message so much ;-) Can't please 'em all!

@Traveller, I have a fragile ego but I don't tie to my books so as long as reviews are about the BOOK and not ME, personally, I'm okay to take in whatever people want to say. I prefer honesty, actually. I dislike having to read between the lines. My glasses are hard enough as it is! haha

-Friday
(I hurt everywhere but my nose after two 12-hr days at this sucky day job; even my hands hurt! I need a new job, one that doesn't threaten to hurt my precious typing tools.)

Nick wrote: "I am not trying to squelch authors from coming here and promoting themselves, but please do so in the correct place. I have went through about five pages in the Introduce Yourself post and removed ..."

I can't find the link, I guess. I posted the other day and don't see it so I must have posted wrong?

Oh, such a dilemma! On the one hand there are new authors (myself included) who are trying to promote their books . . and on the other hand is the Moderator's position of trying to stop over-pushy authors giving offence (and probably wrecking their own sales figures) by pushing too hard! On the whole, I have to support the moderators - but its hard, guys, really hard!
Thanks ever so for the opportunities you have provided - I will try to stick to the rules!
Alan

Dante,

I don't know if you're trying to be snarky (it's not funny if you were) or if you really were unable to find the link. It's right in the group HOME PAGE description (paragraph #2) and Nick actually made it clickable. Kind of hard to miss. Here it is again (for you and anyone else coming upon this thread thinking Nick's being "oh so unfair" or difficult.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/group_folder/524?group_id=1865

Everytime one Indie Author behaves in a rude, obnoxious way, it makes it all that much harder for the rest of us. If you think "So what? Not my problem. I got my books sold. think again.

Behaving like an arse in the group your potential fans set up to talk about their favorite books is NOT how to sell anyone on any book--especially not yours. It's how you get a bad reputation for being rude. Please stop.

Pitch your book (where it belongs) and please stop ruining the positive atmosphere of this and other, related groups on this genre for the rest of us! Thank you! (those last 2 words are in the dictionary, in case you you haven't seen them before now - and yes, that was being snarky but sadly true in far too many instances!)

-Friday
@phoenicianbooks

Back in April, 2012 Jeff wrote: "I think the presence of a lot of outright spam, the kind of thing which this group admirably aims to stop, really hurts other promotions that aren't so bad.

Probably if it weren't in the context of a ton of spam, and a lot of authors who do only contribute in order to push their books, small signatures including promotions probalby would not bother me. "

Just a case in point here. Jeff, you and I corresponded in email after this and I thank you again for saying you didn't think it was so bad. Sid (Snail in Danger) OTOH thought it was so offensive as to do the rude, pissed-off thing (one of the few recourses left a reader short of reporting a person for spam): shelved my book as "over-the-top-promotion" for the entire Goodreads world to see.

I did not spam, I didn't even post pitches. I simply posed links in a signature everywhere I was visiting/posting on my first day after launching my book. I was very excited to have launched and my posts were definitely exuberant--but were on topics NOT my book. My .sig was my only promo and THAT gleaned me a "over the top promotion" label by a pissed off Goodreads member. Not to mention that that person will never read my book now, no one who sees that shelf will either. Granted there are 9 million members here, but a shelf is forever (or as long as Sid is on the site)

Lesson learned? It was my first and ONLY encounter with a Goodreads user being pissed off enough to badmouth me in public that way. I was selected to be a group read by another group a few days later, I got shelved by a few dozen people in May (before I had to stop hanging on Goodreads to start preparing for today's move) Obviously something I was doing was working--not offending others. But Sid's rudely-named shelf is still there reminding me how pissed off some people can get everytime I go to my own book page. Learn from my mistake. You can get a lot worse. You can get deleted or reported for SPAM. Second only to Twitter, most of my sales come from Goodreads.

-Friday
@phoenicianbooks

Promote your book here, don't promote your book here. It's all so confusing.

The aim is to stop us spamming people to death! It's really pretty easy to follow, and personally I'm very glad the guidelines are in place. :)

I am with you, Georgina.

It's cool and it makes sense. I've been pretty mum in the forums, but I'll be making a lot of noise soon. I have a website that I'd like people to come to soon. I've worked really hard on it, and it's nice to get people's attention, but I (and I think everybody) hates people who are all like, "Check out my book. It's so different and new, blah, blah, blah," and that's all they're here for. Not to make new friends or learn about new books, but to sell their own. It's kind of embarrassing.

Thanks, Nick, for the rules enforcement.

I'm with Georgina on this one. As a new author, it turns my stomach to see poorly managed promotion. There is a time and a place for it and this group has both.

Now I can get into some serious Kevin J. Anderson SciFi fan talk.

J

Your message to authors is great, except you neglected to mention where they SHOULD post those self promotions.

Nick wrote: "I am not trying to squelch authors from coming here and promoting themselves, but please do so in the correct place. I have went through about five pages in the Introduce Yourself post and removed ..."

Dave wrote: "Your message to authors is great, except you neglected to mention where they SHOULD post those self promotions."

You're responding to a post from 2 1/2 years ago by someone who isn't here anymore.

The group has a very obvious Goodreads Author's Books section where authors may post a thread about their books.