fiction files redux discussion

I hope it's okay to plug a group I just created here. It's called Lost in Translation and it is here: http://www.goodreads.com/group/show/3...

I wanted a place for people who love translated works (which are criminally overlooked and underread) to discuss all things dealing with the topic of translation, foreign literatures, the publishing industry's attitudes towards translation, and recommendations etc. Please join if this sounds exciting to you.

. . .in the past ten years i haven't read many translations, and i feel very guilty and anglo-centric about it . . . in recent months i've been working on lulu with a handful of different translators in different languages . . . it's fascinating to see the different hurdles they face . . . i've noticed that my german translator has had the most queries, and i wonder if it's because she is so thorough, or because of the peculiarities of translating english to german . . .? i've been told that german is kind of an oddball language, hyper-specific, modifiers at the end of sentences, etc, etc . . .

German is an odd language. It sounds like metal going around in a washing machine, to my ears.

Indeed much can be lost in translation. I often find myself watching French movies and reading the subtitles and noticing how they change the context or mis-interpret all together. It's very fucking annoying sometimes. Translations can be good and bad. Sometimes I buy books, especially poetry, with the original and English translation next to it. Translating is fun, often a chore.

As a group we've read the Dead Russians, the Makioka Sisters and a few good short stories. I'm currently reading Stieg Larsons Millennium series.

Translated books? Noooo...

Short answer... I love world lit. I only understand English. So I have no choice.

Yeah, I always fantasized about taking langauge courses like Greek and Latin at community college but the tutitions are too much for me right now.

I possess a language deficiency. I've tried many. I've only mastered caveman talk and I'm still learning English.

The differences can be HUGE.

I'm currently reading some Lorca; and, every once in a awhile, moving from the English to the Spanish, and from the Spanish to the English, I am surprised by the license which a particular translator took.

Obviously, one CAN'T translate literally.

I'm currently "picking" at German. But, I need to commit more fully—time, etc.

This is a really cool thread.

Some of the translation novels are really great for just the story like 'Let the Right One In' or 'As God Commands.' It's good if you plan to read it for the story but not good if you want the language accurate.

That's not been my experience, Patrick. I guess it depends on what book you're talking about. Some of my favorite translated books are ones where the language reigns over the plot. Books like Invisible Cities, An Episode in the Life of a Landscape Painter, Madame Bovary, Swann's Way, Alphabet, Jakob von Gunten (I could go on, but I won't).

After discussing how the language is difficult to translate and how it might be different than the original source, it seems contradictionary to other posts to say that the books in which languages reigns over stories are themselves translated books. It probably depends on the most successful translation and your choice of novels does seem interesting. I guess I will have to check 'em out.

Something is ALWAYS lost in translation. It is inevitable. But just because something is lost between the two languages does NOT mean that the books in the new language are no longer valid, and that you can no longer appreciate the language. There are translations that take more liberty with meaning and others that take less liberty, but both instances are still translations! There are translations that try to preserve the sound of the words, the rhythm, the meaning or all of the above, and they all succeed or fail to different degrees. But they are still translated books. So I guess I don't understand your point, Patrick.

Interesting tidbit... Orhan Pamuk writes in his native language, Turkish. I was told by more than one person while in Turkey that the English translations of his books are better written.

Le Clezio, Kadare, Toer, Kawabata, Tolstoy... on and on... beautiful voices even with English translations.

But I think it does to an extent depend on the original language. I know that much is lost when reading English translations of Chinese and Japanese books... but some is also gained. It's a trade off. I'd rather read a translation of any 'world' book than not at all.

Jimmy wrote: "Something is ALWAYS lost in translation. It is inevitable. But just because something is lost between the two languages does NOT mean that the books in the new language are no longer valid, and t..."

Im not sure what it means for a book to be valid or not - but I would suggest that what of the actual writing (as opposed to message, themes, story etc) you cherish in a translated work comes more from the skill of the translator from that of the original author

I think you are partially correct... in that the translator has a huge role to play.

However, if the language has everything to do with the translator, and nothing to do with the original language... then it wouldn't make sense that Robert Walser's language is as compelling to me through several different translators (and there is something consistent about them too).

Of course, there are examples of really bad translators, but given a relatively good translator, and a reasonably-easy original text (Eugene Onegin would be an example of an unreasonably difficult one haha) the language of the original SHOULD come through at least 70 to 90%, in my estimation.

Part of the reason I started the group was to get feedback on what differences there were between translations of certain great authors... There is a whole section of my group dedicated to whether translation is possible at all...

But I would argue that it definitely is. It's kind of futile to have an all-or-nothing kind of mentality (i.e. if I can't have the original, I won't read it at all) because you're missing a lot. You would be surprised at how much of the language comes through some of these translations. I agree with Brian that certain languages work much better. I have also had a problem finding good Japanese and Chinese translations. They just sound "off" to my ears.

I'd say there are certain books or certain kinds of books that are easily translated while others are all but impossible - imagine the kind of mess someone might make of Ulysses or even worse, Finnegan's Wake

Joyce worked on French translations of Ulysses and FW. I imagine that was fucking hard. There's the brilliant anecdote told by Beckett who was one day taking dictation from Joyce during the writing of the Anna Livia Plurabelle section - which was the first to be translated en francais - when the doorbell rang. After the visitor left, Joyce got Beckett to read it all back to him. Half way through Beckett realised he'd been so engrossed in the work, he'd written 'knock at the door' into the text. He informed Joyce, who replied,'let it stand'.

There's plenty that's lost in translation between thought and the first language already. But then, perhaps, there is something found as well.

I think it's pretty much the same with further translations.

Jonathan, how's Lulu's Russian translation coming along? ;P

In an interview, Borges said that he preferred the German language to French because, he claimed, one can never say anything serious in French.

Ooh-la-la. Take that, you frogs! I'm sure that Borges was familiar with the common French insult for people who misuse their precious language: "Vous parlez français comme une vache espagnole." (You speak French like a Spanish cow.)

I think Beckett is better in English translation. The original French versions often seem stilted and too formal. Edgar Allan Poe's work is a thing of beauty in French, especially when translated by a greater poetic genius like Baudelaire.

C. K. Scott Moncrieff became famous for his pioneering translation of Proust, yet occasionally he would create an odd blurring effect when confronted by a sexually charged passage. I recall one scene in the first volume when the narrator Marcel retreats to a secluded area so that he can enjoy a "solitary pleasure" ... and then he seems to be contemplating the slimy track left by a snail. The confused reader might believe that Marcel doesn't want anyone to know that he collects snails. But the original French simply means that the boy is masturbating and the snail-track is an elegant way to say that he ejaculated. Ooh-la-la.

Adrian wrote: "In an interview, Borges said that he preferred the German language to French because, he claimed, one can never say anything serious in French."

it's posts like these that make me love this place. that was a good post adrian. i'm mooing in delight.

I read in both Finnish and English. I have also done comparison between translations and originals and I think how much is lost depends on the translators abilities to think creatively. The ideal situation is communication with the original writer and the courage to think freely.

I've read some books in German and it does seem to simplify words a bit. Would be interesting to compare Lulu's original to the german one when it's out :D

I've read approximately 1 and 3/4 books that weren't in English (discounting very small children's books), simply because I am only fluent in English. It would be fun to compare those 1 and 3/4 (hopefully 2 soon) to the English translations, but I'm not going to buy another copy of a book I've already got.
If I had to write a top ten of my favourite books, probably at least half of them would be books that were originally written in another language. In good translations, you don't even notice.
You have to accept, of course, that you are not reading just the work of the author - the translator is a second author, for sure. I think good translators are good writers, not just good linguists. It's one thing to understand the original French (or whatever) sentence perfectly, and quite another to render it properly into English. I imagine being a translator is a little like being a literary chameleon or an impressionist, unless you always translate the same author of course. To get a feel for someone else's style and convincingly imitate it in another language, without literally copying, must be pretty hard.
I can't imagine translating from your native language to a second language. Does anyone know if this has been done successfully?

Brian wrote: "Adrian wrote: "In an interview, Borges said that he preferred the German language to French because, he claimed, one can never say anything serious in French."

it's posts like these that make me l..."

. . .here, here, adrian you're a treasure . . .

Pavel wrote: "There's plenty that's lost in translation between thought and the first language already. But then, perhaps, there is something found as well.

I think it's pretty much the same with further trans..."

. . . pavel, no russian translation for lulu yet . . . west of here is likely, though . . . it occurs to me that west of here may translate better, as it is a novel of events and connections, while lulu is a voice novel, which i feel offers more challenges . . . that said, hrabal's english translations usually sing, and he was all about voice . . .

I've always been a huge fan of French and Russian writers. Frank Wynne who translated Platform and Barbara Bray who did The Malady of Death and Adriana Hunter who did 9.99 are notably good French to English translators.

I read a lot of books in translation. Arturo Perez-Reverte and Umberto Eco are two of my favorite authors and on the rare occaision I'm not satisfied with one of their offerings I always wonder whether the problem may be with the translation.

My rusty Latin serves me well enough when I head back into Catullus & Ovid, but I am at the mercy of translators for all other languages.

For a long while now, I've been meaning to attempt The Romance of the Three Kingdoms, but I've yet to come accross an English translation that didn't have a ton of criticism leveled against it. Does anyone know of a good translation for it?

I always try to read the original version by the author himself, since I can't know all languages, sure I read the English or French translation. Considering I have a rather large knowledge of languages, I can imagine there are a lot of people who read the book in translation, namely the only language they understand or understand best ...

Adrian wrote: "C. K. Scott Moncrieff became famous for his pioneering translation of Proust, yet occasionally he would create an odd blurring effect when confronted by a sexually charged passage. I recall one scene in the first volume when the narrator Marcel retreats to a secluded area so that he can enjoy a "solitary pleasure" ... and then he seems to be contemplating the slimy track left by a snail. The confused reader might believe that Marcel doesn't want anyone to know that he collects snails. But the original French simply means that the boy is masturbating and the snail-track is an elegant way to say that he ejaculated. Ooh-la-la."

i want to think that maybe patricia highsmith read that and it accounts for her weird snail thing.

Interesting article about the problems of translation (from the point of view of a translator):

http://www.translationdirectory.com/a...