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Archived Group Reads 2009-10 > "Far From the Madding Crowd" Part 4: Chapters XXX-XXXVIII

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message 1: by Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (last edited Aug 03, 2010 09:43PM) (new)

Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (captain_sir_roddy) This is the thread that has been created for the discussion of Part 4 (Week 4) of Thomas Hardy's "Far From the Madding Crowd." Be aware that you may encounter SPOILERS in this discussion thread if you are still reading in the preceding section(s).


message 2: by Grace Tjan (last edited Aug 20, 2010 10:08PM) (new)

Grace Tjan I know that we are not supposed to reach this part until next week or so, but I couldn't help going on with the story --- I just have to know what's going to happen.

I'm enjoying this part of the story very much, as Hardy takes us on a roller-coaster ride (at least that's how it feels like to me). He first shows us how Gabriel came upon Bathsheba riding to Bath alone in the middle of the night to see Troy, and then we are left in a limbo, until Cain Ball comes back from town with some news about them. The scene is hilarious and made me lol (totally unexpected in a Hardy novel!). But Cain's information is still inconclusive. The next scene is Boldwood's meeting with Troy, in which he tries to bribe Troy, first to marry Fanny, and then Bathsheba. Troy plays along and then suddenly drops the biggest bombshell of all: he and Bathsheba are already married! He proceeds to claim his new station as the man of the house by initiating a drunken revel. Then suddenly a mighty storm appears (the most marvelous description of a lightning storm that I've ever read!) and Gabriel and Bathsheba have to fight to save the ricks against it. I thought that Hardy sets up the scenes brilliantly, mixing suspense, humor and action with a deft hand while still giving us emotional resonance.

I can't stop reading and will probably finish this book in the next few days.


message 3: by Grace Tjan (new)

Grace Tjan "Dazzled by brass and scarlet --- O Bathsheba --- this is woman's folly indeed!"

The key to Bathsheba's tragic relationship with Troy; being sexually inexperienced, she confuses lust with love. At least, that's how I see it.


message 4: by MadgeUK (new)

MadgeUK Good point Sandybanks and a great summary! BTW Tomalin writes that Hardy actually wrote that storm scene during a big storm.


message 5: by Grace Tjan (new)

Grace Tjan MadgeUK wrote: "Good point Sandybanks and a great summary! BTW Tomalin writes that Hardy actually wrote that storm scene during a big storm."

Oh, that's why it feels so immediate. No one writes about nature like Hardy, it seems.

Love all the links and info that you're giving us, Madge, especially those with pictures of Hardy country. Keep them coming!


message 6: by MadgeUK (last edited Aug 21, 2010 04:29AM) (new)

MadgeUK Thanks Sandybanks. I am putting most of them on the Background info thread now. Hardy country is still some of the best relatively unpolluted agricultural land we have in England and money from the tourist traffic that his books bring helps to preserve both land and buildings.


message 7: by Marialyce (new)

Marialyce I happened to watch the movie and Hollywood's portrayal could not come close to Hardy's description. You did a wonderful summation Sandbanks of the next section. I understand your feelings towards wanting to continue. I did and ultimately finished the book.

There are very few women who are not impressed by the look of a man in uniform. Which of us does not look at a soldier in dress uniform? I think Hardy realized that women in general are ever so capable of casting a fine eye in that direction and Bathsheba was no exception. As people in the era, were so inexperienced in the courtship ritual (and Bathsheba was one of them) they seemed to fling themselves headlong into serious territory relationship wise. Although it is not clear how long Fanny and Troy were an item, one gets the impression that things proceeded quite quickly here as well. This must have been a sign of the times as well as their environment.


message 8: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 2507 comments Kathy wrote: "I had read a few of Hardy's novels when I was young, but I didn't really 'get' them and put Hardy down as a bit long-winded. I found all his long descriptions a distraction because I thought he wasn't getting to the point (i.e. moving the plot on). Now, I can see that all the detail actually IS the point and that you can't really get the plot without paying attention to the details, which so subtly amplify the overall narrative."

Very well said. Hardy is one of the few, and I think the best, of the English novelists to make the rural country and its inhabitants the central figures of his work. Trollope does a bit of it, but mostly he writes of the clergy and the aristocracy (with an emphasis on the minor aristocracy, the squires and such). Austen writes almost exclusively of the genteel, mostly monied classes. George Eliot does have some rural elements, in the Mill on the Floss for example, but her countryside is only a backdrop; her emphasis is on her characters largely separate from their physical environments.

But Hardy's characters are in and of the soil. They are so tied up with the earth around them -- right down to Tess grubbing up turnips on Flintcomb-Ash farm -- that without the close descriptions of their rural environment and lives they would hardly exist as people.


message 9: by MadgeUK (new)

MadgeUK I agree Everyman, Hardy is the master of descriptive, poetic phrases and paragraphs about the countryside and country people. Perhaps when we are young, Kathy, we want to 'cut to the chase' and see those descriptions as getting in the way of the action but as we get older we have the patience to savour them. You can open any page of Hardy and find poetry - I do not think that can be said of many novelists.


message 10: by Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (last edited Aug 21, 2010 01:19PM) (new)

Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (captain_sir_roddy) MadgeUK wrote: "I agree Everyman, Hardy is the master of descriptive, poetic phrases and paragraphs about the countryside and country people. Perhaps when we are young, Kathy, we want to 'cut to the chase' and se..."

Madge, you said, "You can open any page of Hardy and find poetry - I do not think that can be said of many novelists." That is so true--Not many at all.

I am an amateur fine-art landscape photographer, a geologist by education, and have lived and traveled much of my life in the great American west; now you may all better understand my affinity and love for this great author--Thomas Hardy.


message 11: by MadgeUK (last edited Aug 21, 2010 01:06PM) (new)

MadgeUK A geologist by education too Chris! Did you know that the Dorset coast was the 'Jurassic Coast' of England and that many fine specimens of prehistoric animals and birds have been found and are still being found there? You will certainly have to visit Hardy country when you come to the UK! I'll give you some more info in the Background thread.


message 12: by Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (last edited Aug 21, 2010 01:31PM) (new)

Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (captain_sir_roddy) MadgeUK wrote: "A geologist by education too Chris! Did you know that the Dorset coast was the 'Jurassic Coast' of England and that many fine specimens of prehistoric animals and birds have been found and are sti..."

Terrific!

The English were at the forefront in the developing science of Geology. In fact, the 'father of Geology' is generally acknowledged to be Charles Lyell, and the father of the study of the relationships of one layer of rock to another--Stratigraphy, was William 'Strata' Smith. I have always loved how Hardy incorporates geologic references throughout his novels (A Pair of Blue Eyes certainly springs to mind).


message 13: by MadgeUK (last edited Aug 30, 2010 02:54AM) (new)

MadgeUK What a lovely little mystery Chapter 32 is! Was anyone deceived by the ghost-like woman and gipsy man which Maryann saw from the bedroom window? I like this exchange between Coggan and Bathsheba when she chides him and Gabriel for borrowing Boldwood's horses:-

'"Why those are never Farm Boldwood's horses! Goodness mercy! what have you been doing - bringing trouble upon me in this way? What! mustn't a lady move an inch from her door without being dogged like a thief?"

"But how was we to know, if you left no account of your doings?' expostulated Coggan, 'and ladies don't drive at these hours, miss, as a general rule of society."'

I think her night-time drive would have been, as Coggaan said, a 'strange vagary', even in our times! Then, after all that secrecy and upset she didn't even get to Bath because she miscalculated the time it would take. I am sure there are men here who are muttering 'Just like women drivers!' LOL.

The beginning of Chapter 33 In the Sun - A Harbinger starts with a reference to 'Gilpin's rig'. John Gilpin was a real life character from London, whose journey on his runaway horse inspired a a ballad written about him by the popular Victorian poet William Cowper. I had an illustrated copy of this ballad when I was a little girl and could partly recite the poem. Ware is just north of where I live so the gallop From Edmonton would have been about 30 miles

In Chapter 33 there is also a reference to 'High Church and High Chapel' and I am going to post something about this in the Background Information section.


message 14: by Em (last edited Aug 23, 2010 11:05AM) (new)

Em (emmap) Well, I'll admit to being a bit of a slow coach in catching on as to who exactly Coggan and Gabriel were following!

They say love can drive you mad don't they? It is quite an irrational act to set off for Bath all alone, in secret, at night - I suppose Bathsheba is fairly impetuous but even so...

She clearly takes Boldwoods threats very seriously, she seems to feel responsible for Troys welfare and needs to warn him. I wondered why she wouldn't put Boldwoods angry words down to his disappointment at having his proposal rejected by her. Is it lack of romantic experience or is he genuinely a bit unhinged and she senses it?


message 15: by Marialyce (new)

Marialyce I agree, Em, impetuous almost to the point of obsession. I would think it to be pretty risky to be traipsing out in the night by oneself. She had to know what this might do to her reputation. So, my question is, does she premeditate the marriage?


message 16: by Em (new)

Em (emmap) Good question! This is my first time of reading the book and going by my first impressions I think not though I'm open to arguments either way. Bathsheba would certainly have it as not having been premeditated wouldn't she? I hope I'm within the chapters of this discussion thread, I haven't got my book with me, but she does explain her motivations for marriage to Gabriel and much as I thought it was a lame excuse, I still found it (sadly) believable! What are your thoughts?


message 17: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 2507 comments Marialyce wrote: "I agree, Em, impetuous almost to the point of obsession. I would think it to be pretty risky to be traipsing out in the night by oneself. She had to know what this might do to her reputation. So, my question is, does she premeditate the marriage?
"


I think she has persuaded herself that she's just going to warn him and nothing more. But I think there was no way she was leaving Bath a single woman. Or perhaps I should modify that: no way she was leaving Bath a pure woman, but whether married really depended on Troy's willingness to marry her.


message 18: by Em (new)

Em (emmap) Her reputation would certainly have been in peril! It seemed to me she quite simply hadn't thought it through - setting off on a whim, miscalculating the length of her journey, the time of her absence and making her horse lame in the process. Once there, in Bath she realises it's either marriage to Troy or the loss of her good name.


Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (captain_sir_roddy) Everyman wrote: "Marialyce wrote: "I agree, Em, impetuous almost to the point of obsession. I would think it to be pretty risky to be traipsing out in the night by oneself. She had to know what this might do to her..."

I think you are absolutely correct, Everyman! When she took off from the farm, the die was cast.


message 20: by Grace Tjan (new)

Grace Tjan I read somewhere that the lightning storm has a symbolic significance. What is it?


message 21: by MadgeUK (new)

MadgeUK Lightning is usually symbolic of the loss of innocence and a warning from the gods. Hardy was probably using it in this classical sense.


message 22: by Marialyce (new)

Marialyce I guess lightening also is quite scary although beautiful to watch. (something like the events that will possible happen to Bathsheba and others) It can be the harbinger of danger bringing with it the threat of fire, being struck by it, and of course, death. It is accompanied usually by thunder although I don't recall that being much mentioned in the novel. It is a powerful force of nature that is unable to be controlled (something like the events of Bathsheba and Troy's life I think.)


message 23: by MadgeUK (last edited Aug 24, 2010 06:43AM) (new)

MadgeUK Sandybanks: Are you referring to the lightning and 'rumbles' in the storm scene of Chapter 37 The Storm - the Two Together?

'A LIGHT flapped over the scene, as if reflected from phosphorescent wings crossing the sky, and a rumble filled the air. It was the first move of the approaching storm...The second peal was noisy, with comparatively little visible lightning. Gabriel saw a candle shining in Bathsheba's bedroom, and soon a shadow swept to and fro upon the blind.....Then there came a third flash. Manoeuvres of a most extraordinary kind were going on in the vast firmamental hollows overhead. The lightning now was the colour of silver, and gleamed in the heavens like a mailed army. Rumbles became rattles. Gabriel from his elevated position could see over the landscape at least half-a-dozen miles in front. Every hedge, bush, and tree was distinct as in a line engraving. In a paddock in the same direction was a herd of heifers, and the forms of these were visible at this moment in the act of galloping about in the wildest and maddest confusion, flinging their heels and tails high into the air, their heads to earth. A poplar in the immediate fore-ground was like an ink stroke on burnished tin. Then the picture vanished, leaving the darkness so intense that Gabriel worked entirely by feeling with his hands.'

'Phosphorescent wings' and 'vast firmamental hollows overhead' are perhaps references to an angel from the heavens. I think it is significant that the word 'hollows' is used, maybe as an echo of the seduction scene in Chapter 28 'The Hollow amid the Fern'. Here is another kind of getting together, less romantic but as enduring as nature itself.

The symbolism of the poplar may be that it is referred to in legends as talking, whispering, quivering. In the Victorian language of flowers and trees it means courage. It is said to have the ability to endure and conquer so this may be referring to Gabriel's love for Bathsheba?


message 24: by Andrea (new)

Andrea | 83 comments Yes, I have been thinking about why Gabriel and Bathsheba were out in the storm together. I mean from the symbolic sense, not just why they were there. Her husband is not only drunk himself, but incapacitates anyone else who might have helped her. Then she and Gabriel experience this storm in the same place where Gabriel saved her crop from the fire before. Interesting implications?


message 25: by SarahC (new)

SarahC (sarahcarmack) | 1418 comments How old was Cainy Ball anyway?


message 26: by Marialyce (last edited Aug 24, 2010 04:32PM) (new)

Marialyce I am interested in the character of Liddy. She is Bathsheba's only female friend (?) and I find her transition from servant to confidant quite interesting and very enjoyable. I tended to think her quite simple in the beginning, but now, I view her quite differently. Are there any thoughts from anyone on the development of this character?


message 27: by Andrea (new)

Andrea | 83 comments Liddy seems to have a rather fine line to tread. There seems to be quite a few "ladies maids" who become confidantes in Victorian lit. But Liddy has to be so careful not to go to far in criticizing or questioning B.


message 28: by Marialyce (new)

Marialyce I think perhaps there is a bit more here than a servant/mistress connection though.


message 29: by MadgeUK (last edited Aug 25, 2010 12:39AM) (new)

MadgeUK To backtrack a little - I find Chapter 34 a very telling one, where Boldwood confronts Troy and offers him money to marry Fanny Robin. Troy shows his true, hateful colours in this chapter and leads Boldwood to think he will do this until Bathsheba comes to the upstairs window and their conversation apparently reveals that she has been compromised. Boldwood then offers to settle £500 on Bathsheba so that Troy can marry her! Only when Troy has some of Boldwood's money does he reveal with a 'low gurgle of derisive laughter' that he and Bathsheba were married in Bath, when he throws the money back at Boldwood, knowing that he will soon have his hands on Bathsheba's fortune.

Not surprisingly, this chapter ends with 'Boldwood's dark form' walking about the hills and downs of Weatherbury like an unhappy Shade in the Mournful Fields by Acheron' (the region of the classical underworld inhabited by those unhappy in love, according to Aeneid).

Early in the following chapter (35) 'At an Upper Window', when we learn that Troy is now in charge of Bathsheba's house and farm, Troy asks Coggan if there are any signs of insanity in Boldwood's family, which I suspect is a foreshadowing of future events. The chapter ends with a sorrowful portrayal of Boldwood astride his horse with a 'want of colour in his well-defined face, the enlarged appearance of veins in his forehead and temples...'The clash of discord between mood and matter here was forced painfully home to the heart; and, as in laughter there are more dreadful phases than in tears, so was there in the steadiness of this agonised man an expression deeper than a cry.'

Earlier in the novel I thought Hardy was setting Boldwood up to be the classical, older villain seeking to seduce by force but now I think he is the most tragic character and I worry about his future:(.


message 30: by MadgeUK (last edited Aug 25, 2010 12:51AM) (new)

MadgeUK Chapter 36 about 'the Revel' following the harvest, is in stark contrast to the churchlike scene of The Great Barn and Sheepshearers in Chapter 22 where the mention of 'Money, Temperance and Soberness' foreshadows the drunken orgy which Troy now leads Bathsheba's workmen into. There is another reference to madness here as the fiddler performs the immortal tune, 'The Soldier's Joy' with the 'proper convulsions, spasms' and frenzies' of the St Vitus' dance' or choreia, Greek for dance, where quick involuntary movements of the hands and feet resemble dancing or piano playing and which was once thought to be a sign of madness.

Despite the revelry, this is a very dark chapter which describes the Greek Chorus of Bathsheba's 'wretched workfolk' as 'under the table, leaning against forms and chairs in every conceivable attitude except the perpendicular'. 'The snores and united breathings of the horizontal appendage forming a subdued roar like London from a distance' - Troy, himself in a drunken stupor, has brought the evils of London to the once peaceful countryside:(. Only the sober Gabriel, seeking the key to the granary, which (as Andrea noted) he had saved from fire on a previous occasion, is aware that 'this debauch boded ill for [his:] wilful and fascinating mistress' because now a storm might destroy this year's harvest.

Bathsheba's harvest is saved but in Chapter 38 Gabriel meets a solitary Boldwood and learns that his ricks have not been covered. He tells Boldwood that 'not a tenth of your corn will come to measure' - yet another harbinger of doom for Boldwood. They discuss his relationship with Bathsheba and he makes it clear, contrary to village gossip, that no engagement ever existed between them. He cries that 'it is better to die than to live' and with a smile 'which was like the smile on the countenance of a skull' he asks Gabriel not to mention their talk. Poor Boldwood!:(:(


message 31: by Danielle (new)

Danielle | 4 comments Kathy wrote: "I don't think we should entirely feel sorry for Boldwood. Offering Troy money to influence his marriage choice is a contemptible thing to do and there was a bit of me that agreed with Troy's scorn..."
This scene really shows that Boldwood looses his mind. What is looking for is Bathsheba's salvation and he desperately hopes that money can "buy" it if nothing else.He also realises that money is the only mean of pressure that works with Troy. However, this time it did not!


message 32: by MadgeUK (last edited Aug 30, 2010 02:55AM) (new)

MadgeUK Hi Danielle - nice to see you here!

Yes, It was evident in this chapter that Boldwood had 'lost it' that made me feel sympathy for him. I find him too unbalanced to be 'contempible' at this stage.


message 33: by Marialyce (new)

Marialyce He is suffering from obsession. He is obsessed with Bathsheba and will do anything to control her life even to the point of paying another (or at least trying to) to marry her. Is this truly love? The man is sick with longing to make her into something that his mind has created her to be.


message 34: by Grace Tjan (new)

Grace Tjan MadgeUK wrote: "Sandybanks: Are you referring to the lightning and 'rumbles' in the storm scene of Chapter 37 The Storm - the Two Together?

'A LIGHT flapped over the scene, as if reflected from phosphorescent w..."


Yes.I'm referring to that scene.

I love this line : "The lightning now was the colour of silver, and gleamed in the heavens like a mailed army." It so aptly illustrates the lightning's awesomeness and its menacing power.

Interesting take on the symbolism, Madge. It's not as obvious as the 'The hollow amid the ferns' and the swamps, but it definitely says something about Gabriel and Bathsheba's relationship.


message 35: by MadgeUK (last edited Aug 25, 2010 08:15PM) (new)

MadgeUK Sandybanks wrote: "I love this line: 'The lightning now was the colour of silver..."

Yes, it is indeed beautiful, and now that I think of it, 'mailed army' chimes with that of a 'phosphorescent' angel in the heavens, which reminds me of Milton's War in Heaven in Paradise Lost and the Angel Raphael's 'feathered mail':).


message 36: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 2507 comments Marialyce wrote: "He is suffering from obsession. He is obsessed with Bathsheba and will do anything to control her life even to the point of paying another (or at least trying to) to marry her. Is this truly love? ..."

Love, or obsession? Or something else? We watch Boldwood unraveling before our very eyes. I would love to have a competent psychologist comment on what is going on with him.


message 37: by Marialyce (new)

Marialyce I guess today they would classify it as Obsessive Compulsive Disorder or something along that line. Perhaps he is living vicariously through Bathsheba."Like a needle getting stuck on an old record, obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD) causes the brain to get stuck on a particular thought or urge."Doubters and sinners are afraid that if everything isn’t perfect or done just right something terrible will happen or they will be punished.

I am sure Freud would have had a field day with Boldwood!


message 38: by Grace Tjan (new)

Grace Tjan Marialyce wrote: "I guess today they would classify it as Obsessive Compulsive Disorder or something along that line. Perhaps he is living vicariously through Bathsheba."Like a needle getting stuck on an old record,..."

If Boldwood has OCD, what does Troy have? ;)


message 39: by MadgeUK (last edited Aug 30, 2010 02:56AM) (new)

MadgeUK Sandybanks wrote: "If Boldwood has OCD, what does Troy have?..."

Whatever it is, Troy, like me, will probably go to the deepest recesses of Hell! :O:D I doubt Troy has OCD though.er


RE CHAPTER 55 (SPOILER)
It is thought by some critics that Boldwood is partly modelled on Hardy's close friend, Horace Moule, a melancholic depressive who took his own life, possibly over a failed love affair but more likely because he was an alcoholic and opium user whose life 'unravelled', just as Boldwood's did for different reasons. On the day Hardy heard about his death he walked to and from a fair at Woodbury Hill, near Bere Regis, which became Greenhill Fair in FFTMC. (There is also a possible allusion to Moule in the portrayal of Troy because Moule, who was also a womaniser, had an illegitimate daughter by a 'low status' girl.)

This very sad paragraph in Chapter 55 describes Boldwood's 'pathetic' condition quite well and the beginning of it may well refer to Moule's condition when he took his own life. I feel Boldwood took on a gothic Heathcliffe like persona as the novel progressed:-

'That he had been from the time of Greenhill Fair until the fatal Christmas Eve in excited and unusual moods was known to those who had been intimate with him; but nobody imagined that there had shown in him unequivocal symptoms of the mental derangement which Bathsheba and Oak, alone of all others and at different times, had momentarily suspected. In a locked closet was now discovered an extraordinary collection of articles. There were several sets of ladies' dresses in the piece, of sundry expensive materials; silks and satins, poplins and velvets, all of colours which from Bathsheba's style of dress might have been judged to be her favourites. There were two muffs, sable and ermine. Above all there was a case of jewellery, containing four heavy gold bracelets and several lockets and rings, all of fine quality and manufacture. These things had been bought in Bath and other towns from time to time, and brought home by stealth. They were all carefully packed in paper, and each package was labelled "Bathsheba Boldwood," a date being subjoined six years in advance in every instance...These somewhat pathetic evidences of a mind crazed with care and love were the subject of discourse in Warren's malt-house......'


message 40: by SarahC (new)

SarahC (sarahcarmack) | 1418 comments Marialyce wrote: "I think perhaps there is a bit more here than a servant/mistress connection though."

Marialyce,

I think the relationship between Liddy Smallbury and Bathsheba is an interesting part of a the story too. For me, this novel is a story that diminishes social levels. The villagers and the chief characters show interesting interactions that seem to say their social position was not a primary thing. There was obviously a community and strong individual bonds built on more than status here. We see the bond between Bathsheba and Gabriel as being a real thing for example. That between Liddy and Bathsheba as well. The bond between the impressive soldier Troy (who is pseudo blue-blooded) and Bathsheba is quickly unraveling or in essence no real bond at all.

I know that readers here in the discussion have used the term "Greek chorus" for some of the extra characters in the story. I don't read it that way at all. I like that the characters who people this story have a more solid part in the story, like Liddy for example.


message 41: by Marialyce (new)

Marialyce Sandybanks wrote: "Marialyce wrote: "I guess today they would classify it as Obsessive Compulsive Disorder or something along that line. Perhaps he is living vicariously through Bathsheba."Like a needle getting stuck..."

Not a shred of human decency! They both would have made good fodder for a psychiatrist's couch. :)


message 42: by Marialyce (new)

Marialyce I so too, Sarah. I think each and every one of them does add dimension and is essential to the development of both the plot and Hardy's need for we, the audience to recognize all the various individuals that made up his time. (and in a sense even the time we live in.) They add the levity, the common sense, the toughness that was needed to live in this pastoral environment. Without them, this would just be like another story of love gone wrong and then possibly right. They show the full circle of life.

I so like Liddy. She is silly yet sensible. She is able to read between the lines and see what will occur and tries to warn Bathsheba in the only way her station in life will allow. I would like to think that in the end she became a close friend of Bathsheba's as I think she and Gabriel were the only two who had Bathsheba's welfare constantly in mind.


message 43: by SarahC (new)

SarahC (sarahcarmack) | 1418 comments Marialyce wrote: "I so too, Sarah. I think each and every one of them does add dimension and is essential to the development of both the plot and Hardy's need for we, the audience to recognize all the various indivi..."

Well said, M.


message 44: by Marialyce (new)

Marialyce Thanks, Madge. It is, as I thought of Liddy.


message 45: by Scott (new)

Scott (Karlstadt) | 123 comments Marialyce wrote: "Sandybanks wrote: "Marialyce wrote: "I guess today they would classify it as Obsessive Compulsive Disorder or something along that line. Perhaps he is living vicariously through Bathsheba."Like a n..."


message 46: by Scott (new)

Scott (Karlstadt) | 123 comments Like the Lady of Shallot, popular in Victorian art and lit, Boldwood is so wrapped up in the tapestry of his illusions that he can not free himself. If he can not have the object of his love, he chooses death or prison. After he shoots Troy, he declares: "Well, it makes no difference. There is another way for me to die."


message 47: by MadgeUK (last edited Aug 27, 2010 01:38AM) (new)

MadgeUK Good comparison Karlstaadt.

Perhaps this should be in the following section but it seems to fit here because of the earlier discussion about Boldwood:

Chapter 52 - Converging Courses is an interesting and well named chapter as it describes, in separate parts, what three of our protagonists are doing on Christmas Eve when Boldwood is, unusually, giving a party.

Bathsheba, now a 'widow', is dressing for the event and is 'foolishly agitated' because she knows the party is being given for her. Portentously, she decides to wear her black mourning dress, although Liddy reminds her that she is out of the proscribed period of mourning, and also tells her (again a foreshadowing) that she is so plainly dressed that she might as well be in 'sackcloth'. (Liddy acts as part of The Chorus here, foretelling doom.)

There are telling phrases about Boldwood's state of mind in III of this chapter: Gabriel goes to see him and finds him with his tailor being fitted for a new coat: 'Never had Boldwood been so fastidious about the fit and difficult to please'. He tells Gabriel that 'I am bright tonight, cheerful and more than cheerful - so much so that I am almost sad again with the sense that all of it is just passing away.' He asks Gabriel to tie his necktie because his 'hands are little shaky' and as Gabriel tied the neckerchief he spoke 'feverishly' and in an 'impulsive whisper'. Later in the chapter 'the mood of anxiety about his appearance seemed to pass away, and to be succeeded by a deep solemnity'.

Hardy seems to be describing someone in the throes of a nervous breakdown, with deeply changing moods, much as his friend Moule had been before his death, by all accounts.

In the meanwhile, Troy, the supposed 'suicide', is planning to make a reappearance at the party as a sort of tramp, in an old-fashioned long coat - in contrast to Boldwood's newly tailored, fashionable one. Pennyways now acts as a member of The Chorus when he warns Troy against going and says 'My eyes and limbs, there'll be a racket if you go back just now - in the middle Boldwood's Christmasing!'

Despite it being Christmas and the high point of the village year, all this bodes very ill and it is very significant that the following chapter (53) is called Concurritor - Horae Momento = let battle commence, a reference to a phrase in Horace's Satires where Horace observes that this brings speedy death or victory.


Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (captain_sir_roddy) Awesome posts, folks! I have had a ball reading these this a.m.! I have been on an extended business travel trip all week, and hope to be able to seriously sit down and spend some time scrolling through and responding to your thoughts later today, or this evening! Great work! Cheers! Chris


message 49: by Em (new)

Em (emmap) Good point Sarah and thanks Madge for that link - I felt that Liddy was important to Bathsheba as she has noone else in whom to confide or just be herself and even if in the wrong, be forgiven. I think it is awfully hard for her as a young girl, albeit a bright one, with a lot of responsibility and no family to honestly advise her - Gabriel tries (but she may not see him as impartial) I think Liddy is that person to her.


message 50: by MadgeUK (last edited Aug 29, 2010 02:13AM) (new)

MadgeUK In thinking about the events of the novel overall, I have been struck by how little attention we have paid to the story of Fanny Robin, which caused an outcry in Hardy's time and which caused his editor to have him make drastic changes to the text.

Perhaps because they were changes which he did not wish to make, I find Hardy's Chapter 40 On Casterbridge Highway rather melodramatic and unconvincing. Somehow, I could not feel sufficient sympathy for Fanny as she dragged herself towards the workhouse attached to a dog:(. What do other readers think of these scenes?

My sympathy was also lessened because I thought that Fanny had another choice, other than following Troy, and that was to stay within Bathsheba's household, where I feel she could have been sustained, despite her 'immoral' condition. Was this what Hardy had in mind and what his editor thought would not find favour with the Victorian public? I find Chapter 40 in particular so melodramatic that I feel Hardy is parodying Fanny's situation and finds little sympathy with it himself - but I may be completely wrong! The scene of Troy's burial of Fanny in the churchyard, with the water dripping from a gargoyle onto and destroying the grave is also very gothic and seemingly from a previous era of writing - a la Radcliffe. That scene too is unconvincing.

The scenes surrounding Fanny's death must be some of the most melodramatic in English literature but have they stood the test of time as well as other parts of the novel? Or are our modern sensibilities out of tune with them?


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