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Wars of Light & Shadow--Curse of the Mistwraith, ch X, XI, XII - SPOILERS!
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I've read this book and these chapters several times now, and so will wait until the first timers have had their chance. As an old-timer from waaaaaay back in the early 1990's, I have been sitting on my hands a bit at this stage, as my thoughts have been more focussed on the latter books lately (especially with the imminent release of Initiate's Trial).Great discussion so far, I must say, from an observation stand point.
Well, Dakar continues to revile Arithon in spite of Arithon's unquestioning trust in their spell binding to contains the snakes at Mirthlvain. I remember feeling a lot of compassion for Lysaer being odd man out when it comes to sorcery and mage sight, and also after Traithe's compassionate assessment of him on p. 327 in the last chapter.Asandir once again plies force against Arithon - not to block his memory this time, but to deliberately manipulate him by showing him a vision of the Paravians - those upon which few could gaze without drastic consequences. Asandir knows that Arithon, with his compassion, will be unable to do anything that might make their disappearance from Athera permanent. And this in the face of Arithon's new trust and dropping of his usual sarcastic and cutting barriers.
The Paravians really begin to be unveiled in these chapters, from the vision at Caith el Caen to the towers at Ithamon, which I think are awesome.
I remember being really spooked when Arithon and Lysaer are having a conversation the night the wraiths make their attack the first time I read it. It was really spooky! Second time through not so much, as I knew what was coming.
The scene where the sorcerers contain the wraiths is truly magnificent.
The visit to Morfett in Etarra is hilarious. I love it when the good guys show their power. Although, through out the whole of this book, I was looking to the shadow side of all the power held by the F7. I was suspicious that their motivations might not be truly above board.
And I confess to having a lot of doubt about the kind of king Arithon would make with his introverted ways and his reluctance to take the power in the first place.
I have no idea what clue you're talking about Janny. Maybe I missed it both times through? It's entirely possible!
Was the clue possibly one of the three small notes from before chapter set XI?On a faraway isle, amid waters never charted, a unicorn stands sentinel as Desh-thiere's mists part; and yet she does not dance for joy under the lucent sky - a horn-toss of inquiry displays her puzzlement as tree-filtered sunshine glances across a cave mouth and a weakened shimmer of ward-light fades back to quiescence without rousing the sorcerer sealed under sleep spells within...
Whether or not that has the clue, I found it extremely interesting. My guess would be the sorcerer referenced is Ciladis the Lost, the Fellowship sorcerer who disappeared during his search for the Paravians. This passage seems to indicate that he found them, but was stopped from returning with what he discovered. Also, something more that I noticed rereading it just now - "a weakened shimmer of ward-light fades back to quiescence". Meaning that whatever is keeping him from returning was weakened as Desh-thiere was battled?
I could be way off base, don't eat me alive if I am. That small section just stood out to me.
Dawn wrote: "Was the clue possibly one of the three small notes from before chapter set XI?On a faraway isle, amid waters never charted, a unicorn stands sentinel as Desh-thiere's mists part; and yet she does..."
Holy cow, Dawn! That's got to be it! If it's not, I'll eat my hat.
Janny maybe you should change the title of this thread to Curse of the Mistwraith instead of Wars of Light and Shadows?
Sandra AKA Sleo wrote: "Janny maybe you should change the title of this thread to Curse of the Mistwraith instead of Wars of Light and Shadows?"Right! Done, thanks.
Dawn wrote: "Was the clue possibly one of the three small notes from before chapter set XI?On a faraway isle, amid waters never charted, a unicorn stands sentinel as Desh-thiere's mists part; and yet she does..."
That is one of the clues most first time readers miss, yes.
There's another.
On p. 382 of my edition (current UK paperback from Voyager), there is the following passage:Truth by itself would not condemn the Paravians to extinction, as Arithon has so harshy presumed; but their exile might indeed become permanent, for by the uncompromising Law of Major Balance, the old races were not any man's concern unless he embraced them for his own. Truth, Asandir reflected sadly, was the one principle in existence that could release the musician from blood-ties to a kingly heriatge; but the barbs of the trap first closed in Caith-al-Caen has set full well and deeply.
I'm afraid I just don't get what's being said here. Could someone help me out please?
I think part of the problem is that I don't quite have the Law of Major Balance straight in my head yet, and I'd really appreciate some clarity there as it has come up again in the next group of chapters (I think) and had significant repercussions, but I haven't quite grasped it yet.
Thanks.
Kerry wrote: "On p. 382 of my edition (current UK paperback from Voyager), there is the following passage:Truth by itself would not condemn the Paravians to extinction, as Arithon has so harshy presumed; but..."
Kerry - happy to oblige.
The Law of the Major Balance is quite simple - it holds free will sacrosanct. Conscious action taken, that involves another, asks for the other party's permission, freely given, up front.
The more informed that consent, the more the law is honored.
The Law also holds that all things are (in their own fashion) conscious. So human consciousness is not the only for of 'being' honored in this way.
The paragraph you pointed up, therefore, means this:
When Asandir 'asked' Arithon's permission to view the past at Caith-al-Caen through the resonant imprint in the pebble, he offered that KNOWING it would touch something very deep in the musician's perception Arithon carries. He offered, and let Arithon agree (curiosity drove the choice).
When Arithon consented - he had no IDEA he'd be so moved....and that all of his 'choices' thereafter would pressure him to honor what he saw, even to defending it.
Asandir KNEW that by letting Arithon see the full impact of what the world had lost (in the old races' absence) that it would pressure him another step closer to accepting Rathain's crown obligations (which are not, at this stage, what you might presume, and more important than you can (yet) imagine).
The 'truth' referred to here - is that - Arithon would NOT be solely responsible for the old races' permanent exile...if they fail to return because he did not accept the crown, that would not be HIS DIRECT RESPONSIBILITY UNLESS he chose to make it his own.
Choose freedom - the old races die.
Choose the crown - they may return.
The truth: Arithon is still completely free to choose.
But now he has seen what Asandir invited him to share, the compassion in his royal heritage will make it perniciously difficult - if not impossible - for him to let go of what he saw in Caith-al-Caen.
The upshot: knowledge can impair the available choices, which Asandir knew very clearly, up front. The invitation to view the beauty of the past was NEARLY manipulation - it set a course knowing Arithon's own nature would shift the course of choice in the future.
And - the Sorcerer chose to also honor free choice - when Arithon did not ASK if he still had choice - Asandir allowed him to presume he WAS responsible for the Paravians' fate.
He asked full permission but volunteered NOTHING of the consequences...though he would have been obligated, had Arithon asked. And obligated, as well, had Arithon refused the gambit.
Does this help?
Does this help?Very much, thank you. There's another piece in the next group of chapters I'm not sure about, so I'll be back.
Also, how old are Lysaer and Arithon at this point? Early 20s?
"The upshot: knowledge can impair the available choices, which Asandir knew very clearly, up front. The invitation to view the beauty of the past was NEARLY manipulation - it set a course knowing Arithon's own nature would shift the course of choice in the future."It's interesting the Fellowship share this knowledge with Arithon and not with Lysaer. It would have been harder to show it to him because he doesn't have mage sight and Arithon does. This really does change how one sees the world and then how they will react or act in consequence to this knowledge. Interesting insight. I learned something new too.
Kerry wrote: "Does this help?Very much, thank you. There's another piece in the next group of chapters I'm not sure about, so I'll be back.
Also, how old are Lysaer and Arithon at this point? Early 20s?"
Lysaer's birth date (Atheran reckoning) - 5612, summer
Arithon's birth date (Atheran year) - 5615, winter
Your current point in Mistwraith is late winter/starting spring - so the year would be 5638.
That will let you reference their ages precisely.
Amelia wrote: ""The upshot: knowledge can impair the available choices, which Asandir knew very clearly, up front. The invitation to view the beauty of the past was NEARLY manipulation - it set a course knowing A..."Dakar makes a reference to Lysaer's ability to 'see' in ch X Daon Ramon Barrens, toward the end, when they stop to fill the water flasks - did you note it?
One other point: ARITHON ASKED.
In that scene where Asandir takes the opening to show him - you will note the very line when Arithon asked, and Asandir felt the sense of the perfect tragedy happening - because that one curious question opened the floodgates to ALLOW him to open that vision in the first place.
The perfect card, set into his hand, in perfectly open free will - which is WHY the scene is not a manipulation, done in violation of the Major Balance.
To encounter a Fellowship Sorcerer and to ask for knowledge from them IS to fling wide the gateway to change: watch for this!
How do you think things may have gone differently for Elaira, say, had she NOT staged that illicit visit to Asandir in Erdane?
"To encounter a Fellowship Sorcerer and to ask for knowledge from them IS to fling wide the gateway to change: watch for this!"The adage, 'be careful what you ask for because you just might get it' really is true here. Curiosity and inquisitiveness open the door to more knowledge and understanding. That leads to more responsibility based on the knowledge you have.
I didn't catch that part about Lysaer being able to see. Being blessed with two geas talents does make it much more likely for him to be able to see those wraiths. So, it was more indifference why he didn't get to see as much as Arithon. Perhaps it is a difference in attitude and perception. Lysaer accepts things as he sees them and doesn't question their existence, whereas Arithin tends to want to know why something is the way it is. He wants to know the underlying influences and history behind the existence instead of just taking it for granted. That could be a result of his training.
"How do you think things may have gone differently for Elaira, say, had she NOT staged that illicit visit to Asandir in Erdane?"
If Elaira hadn't met Asandir, and then subsequently Arithon, her life would have been completely different. She wouldn't have any reason to question her superiors, wouldn't have planted the seeds of love, but she also wouldn't have become the tool for the Koriani because she didn't make that connection with the princes. Perhaps she would have gone more into the administration or leadership of the Koriani instead of devoting herself to the study of healing and herblore. Maybe she would have moved up in the Sisterhood and eventually become one of the more powerful sisters within the order. It would have change everything.
This discussion has been oddly quiet about a number of things - so, before the next chapter sets go up for discussion tomorrow - have a peek at some tiny details that may not be so insignificant.What were the ramifications of Lysaer GIVING Kharadmon permission at Kieling Tower at the hour the mistwraith was confined?
What about the scene in the ruin where Lysaer and Arithon were attacked?
In reading through again I see I misread Asandir's behavior re showing Arithon the Paravians. Apparently his dread of the incident was be cause he knew A would ask? Am I remembering Dakar being upset that they were passing the site? Perhaps his manipulation was engineering events to assure the question? I'm quite distinctly remembering his guilt/shame/whatever surrounding those events after A's restored trust. I'm not sure about Lysaer giving Karadmon permission. Have to review and come back.
Okay, now I've reread your answer to Kerry yet again, Janny, and am seeing why Asandir was so troubled. Still, when he offered, he KNEW Arithon would be curious. And am I remembering correctly that Dakar was upset with Asandir about going there in the first place?And isn't it interesting that Lysaer DOESN'T ask or show any curiosity about the past to speak of? And doesn't follow through on the opportunity to learn more about sorcery...
Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "Okay, now I've reread your answer to Kerry yet again, Janny, and am seeing why Asandir was so troubled. Still, when he offered, he KNEW Arithon would be curious. And am I remembering correctly th..."Lysaer's motivation is plainly stated, on several counts - anybody find the reference to that?
Janny wrote: "Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "Okay, now I've reread your answer to Kerry yet again, Janny, and am seeing why Asandir was so troubled. Still, when he offered, he KNEW Arithon would be curious. And am I ..."He says on p. 327 at the end of 'Artifacts' that he needs to focus on healing the relationship between townfolk and clansmen. And it would be nice if he could maintain this way of thinking, but I'm not totally buying that. I think Lysaer makes snap decisions and doesn't think too deeply unless forced to. He has brief moments of insight and clarity, like here when he realizes how small his world was on the island kingdom of his old world and how he might need to rethink his concept of justice. So he turns down Traithe's offer to teach him magic. Perhaps, though, a thorough understanding of what's needed to heal the relationship between town folk and clansmen is an understanding of the 'mysteries' of the Paravians, which should include some knowledge of magic.
I see Lysaer (at this point in the story at least) as having lots of good intentions, but poor follow through. And his view of the world is very simple, not large enough to encompass the complexities of "real life". The situation he has found himself in now is certainly very complex, but I'm sure it was also complex on Dascen Elur and perhaps his upbringing hadn't required him to discover that yet.
This discussion has taken interesting turns, with regard to views of Lysaer's (supposed) moral low ground vs the (supposed) moral high ground readers think he ought to choose.His character is far from simple.
How do you interpret the following:
Growing up under a father such as the moody King of Amroth.
A mage-born mother who deserted him, and whose mageborn relatives eventually came to exile him.
His next closest experience with a person trained to power is Arithon.
Traite OFFERS him the start of initiate training - and in this scene at Althain Tower - we see Lysaer look at both roads and come to the recognition that a ruler's responsibility, given Athera's complexities and rival factions/entrenched dissent - was quite enough responsibility for a lifetime's work.
Do you think this was honest? That training would DIVERT his whole hearted focus? Or do you think this was a sidestep due to weakness, or blindside misjudgment due to the flaws of his upbringing?
Arithon: warned by the mages of Rauven that his knowledge as master and his responsibility as ruler would create a division of the heart?
Would Lysaer have benefited from this same dichotomy, do you think?
Did he make the brave choice here, or the misguided, short-sighted, or selfish one?
Oh, I definitely think he made a brave and wise choice, which when I read it (knowing what would happen soon) just made what's coming all the more tragic.
Diegan - Watch this character, going into the finale chapters sets of this story. What did you think of him on first impression? How does meeting Lysaer impact his life?
Mod
Holy crap, that last chapter was intense! VERY interesting that the defeat of the Mistwraith is NOT the end climax of the book. It’s an original twist, that the defeat of the big baddie is the BEGINNING of the story, not the end.
So, Lysaer has just learned that he has an inborn geas towards dispensing justice, and we’ve just learned that his mind has somehow been affected by direct contact with Desh’thiere. Speculating now, I’m wondering if it’s the geas that was twisted and a corrupted sense of justice is what will drive Lysaer to make war… no need to answer me there, Janny, ‘cause I know I’ll find out as I keep reading! :) I also wonder if the outcome would have been different if Lysaer had been formally trained in using his gift.
Other things I’m wondering:
Why did the townspeople hate/fear the Paravians? Was it Davien’s influence, or was there some other kind of friction between them that helped feed the revolt? Obviously the sorcerers of the Fellowship revered them and miss them; what about the clans?
What are the constraints on the Fellowship that have prevented them from restoring their number to seven? Does the training take so long? Why is Dakar the only apprentice? Why does Asandir tolerate Dakar’s drunkenness when so much is at stake?
The characters in the book are constantly facing very difficult choices. It is interesting to see how the different personalities react.
Finally, the biologist in me is wondering just how the ecosystems of Athera have survived with no sunlight in 500 years! I guess just barely enough light came through the mist to drive photosynthesis…
Shel wrote: "Back from my trip and chiming in late, here. Here's the notes that I wrote when I finished these chapters before I left (obviously I've had some of these questions answered for me later on):Holy..."
Hi Shel - GREAT set of questions!
The 'middle shift' where the original problem changes course is TYPICAL of my works, so enjoy the unpredictability of that quirk - it recurs.
All of the issues you are examining - keep them in mind, the story will unveil and denoue very well.
As to the biologist - good question, and yes, there was enough light to drive photosynthesis. Just a lot of mold and blight - and climate shifts. I believe I answered this question tightly from a readers' query somewhere. I will try to find the bit and repost it, since, except for the fact Koriathain were shown making talismans to counter act molds, blights, and disease in livestock, I did not bog the story down with the full picture.
I read the first nine pages of Chapter X over lunch today, up to the point where Lysaer faints. Assumedly, to that point, the PoV filter for the first section of 'Daon Ramon Barrens' was Lysaer. The next scene appears to be narrated, not filtered through a character's PoV. I'm scratching my head trying to remember if this occurred previously (in the other nine chapters). I've also wondered, since all the conversations are bracketed by single quotes, if the narrator is someone (from the Prologue) relating/retelling this entire story.
So, I'm curious if the narrator here on p. 338 is a sage from the Seventh Age.
Jon wrote: "I read the first nine pages of Chapter X over lunch today, up to the point where Lysaer faints. Assumedly, to that point, the PoV filter for the first section of 'Daon Ramon Barrens' was Lysaer. ..."Jon wrote: "I read the first nine pages of Chapter X over lunch today, up to the point where Lysaer faints. Assumedly, to that point, the PoV filter for the first section of 'Daon Ramon Barrens' was Lysaer. ..."
The single quotes - are just British usage. That's the way they do that over there....if you have the US edition, all live conversation is double quotes, and all recalled or telepathic conversation is single.
There is no 'narrator'.
The Seventh Age Sages 'viewed the events as they happened' - and the story was written in Omniscient viewpoint - so nothing is that degree of overly clever.
Janny wrote: "... so nothing is that degree of overly clever. "I chuckled when I read that. I convinced myself you were clever incarnate (and still are). :)
Thanks for the clarification.
Jon wrote: "Janny wrote: "... so nothing is that degree of overly clever. "I chuckled when I read that. I convinced myself you were clever incarnate (and still are). :)
Thanks for the clarification."
Well, then, grin - guess I'll have to live up to that...
Mod
I am WAY behind but I was struck by the bit about the Koriani wondering why the sorcerers imprisoned the Mistwraith alive. Seems like a foreboding way of drawing our attention to that fact after the intense scene in which the creature is "defeated".
I too, think that the sorcerer under the sleep spells is Ciladis. And yes, I noticed the weakened ward-light.
As an aside, in my mind, I pronounce "Desh-thiere" as "death-the-air". Seems to fit...
Kathi wrote: "Janny wrote: "What is the huge clue most first time readers miss? "I am WAY behind but I was struck by the bit about the Koriani wondering why the sorcerers imprisoned the Mistwraith alive. Seem..."
You're not behind one bit - this isn't a race. ;)
Kathi wrote: "Janny wrote: "What is the huge clue most first time readers miss? "I am WAY behind but I was struck by the bit about the Koriani wondering why the sorcerers imprisoned the Mistwraith alive. Seem..."
I love these books so much I am always glad to see someone reading them. And the series is available for discussion now not only in this group but in Fantasy Book Club Series where all the books are posted and people are posting where they are in their reading.
I like that pronunciation of Desh-thiere. ::shiver::
Back from DragonCon - hope everybody in the US had a great Laborday holiday.
Some things I'm noticing on this reread: Chapter X.Dakar is just waiting for Arithon to be upset when they arrive at Ithamon and takes glee in his pain.
Lysaer has the insight that his decision not to study some magic with Traithe was really vanity and self interest - he wants to be a ruler.
I got really upset with Asandir this time, reading the scene after Arithon and Dakar foil the Koriani's attempt to scry on them, confronting him with his need to accept the throne, to never let Elaira into his life, etc., etc. I know that he did not violate the Law of the Major Balance, but he sure as hell leaves a lot out when Arithon questions him. When he asks what changed at Althaine tower, Asandir doesn't tell him about the strands, about how if he doesn't rule, the sorcerers will never be restored, the Paravians will never return; that something awful is going to happen as a result of chasing Desh-Thiere away that brings the brother to battle with each other. It's like lies of omission. I'm finding it hard to reconcile these things.
I'll get back to you on the next two chapters.
All right. After reading the part about the final conquest of the Mistwraith, I once again have compassion for Lysaer. I think in all the drama of the battle, I kind of blanked out on the aftermath. And I do understand Dakar's sorrow. And after reading the part following Asandir's manipulation (I know the text says 'almost' manipulation, but I'm calling it manipulation) of Arithon, I can forgive Asandir again. Since Arithon did, although as Dakar says, he will forgive the knife that kills him.
Mod
for later in the series...(view spoiler)
Kathi wrote: "Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "Lysaer has the insight that his decision not to study some magic with Traithe was really vanity and self interest - he wants to be a ruler."for later in the series...[spoi..."
(view spoiler)
PLEASE! watch out for spoilers if you have read ahead, make sure in speculation questions you don't inadvertently add material from later volumes!
And uncheck your update feed box.
DO NOT READ THIS THREAD IF YOU HAVE NOT READ THE CHAPTERS!
What do you think NOW?
About the mistwraith?
The royal lineages?
About Ithamon?
About a Paravian construction?
About your first view of Etarra?
Have these scenes changed your thoughts about the Fellowship?
What is the huge clue most first time readers miss?