Queereaders discussion

Yesterday, an article written by the Editor of Changeling Press was posted on a blog for Changeling and Loose Id writers.

The article:

Too Much Information

Or: Have you written a flaming gay hairdresser/fashion consultant instead of the hero you wanted?

Whilst editing, I ran into a common problem, and decided it was time to try to explain why your straight hero reads like he’s gay. So I asked my Darling Husband (DH), who produces our Encounters, in addition to his many other endearing qualities, “If there was one thing you could point to about our heroes that makes them unbelievable, what would it be?”

I expected some down time on that, and a studied response. Nope.

“No one’s ever average.”

OK, so that needed some prompting to get a better explanation.

“These guys are all ‘Heroes’ and ‘Hunks’ with great faces and weight lifter bodies. Any guy I’ve ever met who looks like that knows it, and he’s a real asshole.”

True, but not where I was trying to go. However I was as intrigued by what it took to get the explanation as I was by the explanation itself. Having pondered this conversation, I’ve come to one general conclusion. Women written by men tend to talk too much, too fast, about the wrong things.

1) Clothing -- men don't notice clothing details -- this one’s where I started, and I couldn't pry a word about clothing out of the DH no matter how I tried. If your explanation of clothing from a Male POV goes beyond “Red Dress” it’s TMI.

2) Bodies -- yup. Women have ‘em. Usually with curves. The curves make ‘em “not men,” which is good (If he’s straight). He knows by looking what size she wears? TMI. He’s just met her and he remembers what size she wears and goes shopping for her? Oh, yeah, he’s a gay fashion designer.

3) Hair -- yup. Women have that too. Apparently it comes in colors -- red, blonde, and brown -- and two lengths. Long and short. Waves Vs Curls? Auburn? Sable? TMI.

4) “I love the way that burgundy dress brings out the color in your perfect oval face and your hazel eyes. Great lines.” Oh, yeah. Gay fashion designer TMI.

5) Three pages of spoken dialogue about -- anything other than battlegrounds (Sports are condensed battlegrounds) -- especially before, during, or after sex -- TMI. In fact, full sentences during sex -- TMI (I'm way guilty of this one).

6) Explanations of anything involving past, present, or future emotions as they relate to one another outside a shrink’s office? Way TMI.

And NO. Making him gay doesn't change all that much -- gay guys are still GUYS. Nothing about the testosterone levels -- or the inherent male instincts to protect their territory -- changes all that much. Most gay guys don't read Romance, don't wear pink, and would rather punch each other than talk about emotions. If you don't want him to come across as a flaming hairdresser, find a more believable way to let us know how they feel about one another.
Yes, we've got to compromise. Our men need to talk. In full sentences, even, upon occasion. But sometimes our heroines need to work a little harder to get information out of them, and really big things -- like “I love you” -- ARE really big, and probably need to be valued a lot more. Don't throw that line away. For a guy, it’s a major, major deal. And it doesn't come with becauses, or in spite ofs.

If a guys sees a gorgeous woman in a red dress with real curves, he doesn't give a shit about the dress size or the size of her boobs or the span of her waist or the length of her perfectly coiffed hair. He sees “Blond, Red dress.” Whatever it is that makes her gorgeous to him, he probably can't tell you. Or her. But the most important thing he sees, we often overlook completely -- the thing men see that makes a woman most attractive to them?

She’s/He's looking back at him.


Margaret Riley
Publisher, www.ChangelingPress.com


I commented on this post after reading it:

WTF?

I stopped reading this after you mentioned for the second time that any man who notices clothes on a woman is a 'gay fashion designer.' Wow! How stereotypical can you get?

Also, women read these books, not men. And most want a man who notices things about them...seriously!

I am as faggy as the next gay (meaning I take it up the ass since that is what being gay entails, not noticing a woman's clothing) and I can tell you that I could care f-ing less what a woman wears.

~smooches~
Jase

Juniper also commented as did TeddyPig.

Instead of responding to our comments, the post with all the comments was deleted this morning and a new post replaced it. I commented on the new post:

Curious

Is this blog or the Editor for Changeling Press going to make any response to the post she deleted? I for one, along with many members of the m/m romance group on goodreads would like to know how someone who signs their post with their official title could offend so many and then not respond at all. This has changed my view of Changeling Press and is coloring my view of Loose ID. Are the two publishers affiliated?

Chris also commented with this:

Like slavetopassion, I am curious about the post that was deleted without any explanation or apology. Although it's been deleted here, it's going to live on, cached in Google Reader and other places. Trying to pretend it was never posted is disingenuous and does not leave me with positive feelings about Changeling Press or Loose Id.

Our comments were deleted and a comment from Margaret replaced them:

Writing Believable Straight Male Characters

Yes, Treva pulled my original article, with my permission. No, I did not read the comments first. I have no desire to now. The article was written as a humorous attempt to help female writers who often have difficulty writing believable straight male characters.

Changeling and Loose were two of the first houses to accept M/M Erotica on an equal footing with Het and Ménage Erotica, back at a time when other houses, like EC, wouldn’t take any M/M submissions. I take offense at anyone questioning my dedication to the genre.

This site provides information for writers who are attempting to improving their writing skills. Any other comments will be deleted.
M


To this comment, Carvedwood responded:

Re: Writing Believable Straight Male Characters

They don't want a flame war, they just want an apology for a very failed attempt at humor.

It sounds reasonable to me. If a huge number of your readers (and free advertisers) were, say, disabled people, do you think they'd appreciate it if you wrote an article that said, "Ladies, you don't want your normal heros to seem like 'tards and deetdedees, do you?"

That wouldn't have been very nice.

Likewise, telling your authors how to write their heros so that they don't seem like one of those those silly faggots, also didn't come across as being very funny.

Then Margaret deleted her comment and replaced it with a new one:

Writing Believable Straight Male Characters

Apparently my original article, which was written as a humorous attempt to help female writers who often have difficulty writing believable straight male characters, offended some people who are new to our site. Such was not my intent.

Changeling and Loose Id were two of the first houses to accept M/M Erotica on an equal footing with Het and Ménage Erotica, back at a time when other houses wouldn’t take any M/M submissions. We remain dedicated to the genre.

This site provides information for writers who are attempting to improving their writing skills. Any attempt to introduce flame wars to this site will not be tolerated.

M

It is a shame that publishers who promote gay romance have trouble seeing bigotry in their own actions. To excuse this by saying it was meant in humor or aimed at female writers and, I suppose, not meant for gay eyes.

I plan to write a letter to both Loose id and Changeling to let them know how we feel. I will post the letter here so that any who wish their names to be signed can let me know.

I also encourage our members to write their own letters, unsubscribe from newsletters, yahoo groups etc. Even respectfully let authors of these publishing houses know that you will not be buying their works until this is resolved.

I would be happy with a posted apology, a real one, on that same blog. An apology that accepts responsibility for making degrading comments about gays. Not an apology thats deleted after it is seen but one that stays there so that we know her feelings are not as wishy-washy as her posting. There one minute, gone the next.

Since posting this, she has gone back and edited her comment again. It now reads:


Apparently my original article, which was written as a humorous attempt to help female writers who often have difficulty writing believable straight male characters, offended some people who are new to our site. Such was not my intent, and I apologize.

Changeling and Loose Id were two of the first houses to accept M/M Erotica on an equal footing with Het and Ménage Erotica, back at a time when other houses wouldn’t take any M/M submissions. We remain dedicated to the genre.

M


The change is in bold.

Reiterating my comment from the other group. I find in very interesting that Teddy Pig got all up in arms about this because the last time I pointed out a m/m publisher who did things that I found homophobic and offensive, he rallied an attack against *me* for daring to speak my mind about it. That was a fun time in which I got a "die faggot die" anonymous email from one of the people he whipped into a frenzy over me having the gumption to point out bullshit by a m/m publisher. COurse, TP didn't like someone I was friends with back then and he actually attacked her more for what I said than he did me.

I only mentioned that Teddypig made a comment on the post. I think you missed the point of my post, Paul.

Jason wrote: "I only mentioned that Teddypig made a comment on the post. I think you missed the point of my post, Paul."

No, I got the point of your post and agree with the boycott. Such remarks by m/m publishers don't surprise me anymore, though, as I've seen it happen time and time again. What was interesting and surprising for me is the fact that TP got all up about it.

We have changed this to simply a complaint to the two companies since a boycott would hurt the authors more than anyone else.

If anyone would like to sign the complaint letter, the link is here:

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/ap...

Don't forget to sign the petition guys!

Alaina (who drafted the petition) just received the following email from Changeling. No signature, so I'm not sure who it's from:

"Your apology went up on the blog within a few minutes of your request.

Please note that all blog content, like any other work by any writer, is copyright. Your blog repost is in violation of our US and International Copyright, as no permission to repost was requested."

Alaina said- As of this moment, there is no apology on the blog, so I'm not sure what they're referencing in the first line. I'm also not sure what they're talking about in terms of blog repost, unless they're talking about the repost of the original article on this thread. I'm not sure how they know it was reposted, but frankly, it's beside the point. It seems like another effort to divert the conversation from the main issue.

Where is the blog? I don't know who or what I'm considering petitioning (specifically the blog, I am aware of the publishers). The only thing we have to go on here are posted deleted content and a seemingly private message.

The blog is entitled Loose Change: http://treva2007.livejournal.com/

Thanks. Now I understand why the petition is titled what it is. Sorry if I missed the link elsewhere.