The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

Welcome to the historical fiction discussion of THE FIRST MAN IN ROME
by Colleen McCullough.

This is the reading assignment for week four - (Sept 27th, 2010 to Oct 3rd, 2010)

Week 4 - Sept 27 - Oct 3: p 265 – 330 The Third Year

This is the third historical fiction group selected book.

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers if you are catching up.

This book was kicked off on September 6th; but we are now entering the fourth week of discussion

This discussion is being led by assisting moderator - Alisa. She has done an amazing job with the Supreme Court and civil rights threads and this is her first venture in moderating an historical fiction book and she is very excited to be doing this. Please support her in this effort.

We always enjoy the participation of all group members. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, but this is not available on Kindle or audible.

This thread opens up Monday, September 27th for discussion. Although, Alisa may open this thread up earlier due to her different time zone. This is a non spoiler thread.

Welcome,

~Bentley


TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Colleen McCullough

Alisa is using the current version available to her as follows:



Please feel free to research the complete Table of Contents and Syllabus on this thread:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/3...

Chapter three begins with Marius still in Africa, reduced to serving as an aide to Metellus's twenty-year-old son. Marius and Rufus, frustrated with Metellus's mishandling of the war, advises Metellus that he should capture Jugurtha as quickly as possible to end the war. They discover, through an informant, that the best way to capture Jugurtha is to employ Bomilcar as an agent. Bomilcar is unhappy with Jugurtha because the king will not make Bomilcar the regent of the kingdom because of Bomilcar's lack of royal blood.

Meanwhile, the man who claims to be the rightful king of Numidia, Gauda, is unhappy with Metellus and asks to see Marius. Marius prostrates himself before the African king and forges an alliance with the king in the event of Marius taking over Africa. Marius then goes to see the King's prophet, Martha. She reads his palm and tells Marius that he will be the First Man in Rome and consul seven times. She also tells him that his nephew, Gaius Julius Caesar, will be the greatest of all Romans. Gratified by this prophecy, Marius goes to Gauda and asks him to begin a letter writing campaign to the Roman Senate, exposing the incompetence of Metellus. He then travels throughout Africa, meeting with notable Romans and asking them to do the same. In no time, thousands of letters begin to flood Rome.


Marius, desiring to return to Rome so that he can stand for consular election, asks Metellus to release him from his duty in Africa. Metellus, in order to prevent Marius's consular election, declines his request. Meanwhile, the letters sent from Marius's supporters is undermining Metellus's authority in Rome.


Jugurtha, only narrowly escaping several Roman capture attempts and ambushes, realizes that there must be a traitor in his midst. He seeks out any irregularity and eventually finds someone he believes to be an agent. After torturing this man, he discovers that Bomilcar was the traitor and has both men executed. Jugurtha is now without his most trusted advisor and becomes increasingly paranoid and lonely.


In Rome, Metellus's credibility has been undermined. To make matters worse, he is locked in a stalemate against Jugurtha and implicated in the treason of an Italian ally. Finally, twelve days before the consular election, he releases Marius to return to Rome. Metellus doesn't believe that Marius will make it back to Rome in time for the election, but Marius, aided by luck, arrives in Rome five days before the election. Despite his status as New Man, he is elected consul.


After the election, Marius is invited to dinner at the Caesar's, where he is introduced to Sulla. Caesar has agreed to allow Sulla to marry his daughter Julilla, which means that Marius will now become Sulla's brother-in-law. In private, Caesar confides to Marius that he is somewhat wary of Sulla but that he also believes he will become an important Roman. Caesar asks Marius to make Sulla his client and ensure that he is elected quaestor. Marius, though also somewhat wary of Sulla, agrees.


Marius, in his first meeting with Sulla, informs the younger man that he is planning to use the power of the Tribune to bypass the Senate in deposing Metellus as general in Africa. This will allow Marius to take over the African war. This move is extremely unorthodox, though technically legal. He wants Sulla to join him on the expedition. The chapter ends with Sulla convinced of his destiny, though becoming increasingly restless and bored in the proper circles of the upper nobility.

What so you think of Marius' meeting with the Syrian prophetess, Martha? Is Marius' reaction expected? Do you think he was truly surprised, or is this confirmation of his aspirations? p. 272

Marius as war strategist is coming into view. But is it war strategy or political gamesmanship - or is there a difference in the Roman Republic?

Alisa wrote: "What so you think of Marius' meeting with the Syrian prophetess, Martha? Is Marius' reaction expected? Do you think he was truly surprised, or is this confirmation of his aspirations? p. 272"

He may have been surprised, but he believes her because he wants acclaim so much.

Vicki wrote: "Alisa wrote: "What so you think of Marius' meeting with the Syrian prophetess, Martha? Is Marius' reaction expected? Do you think he was truly surprised, or is this confirmation of his aspiration..."

I was a little surprised, Marius otherwise seems so clinical and pragmatic that it surprised me he would seek out the prophetess. He is very egotistical though and seems to want to desperately believe he is worthy of rising to the highest ranks of Roman stature.

After his visit with Martha, Marius heads straight to see Mettellus where things come to a head over Marius' role in the war in Africa. We know what Marius was after, but did it seem plausible that Mettellus would release him to return to Rome?

Many Romans believed in prophecies and omens. In fact, augurs and haruspices were part of Roman religion. And sibyls or seeresses were consulted from time to time.

Regarding Mettellus, it does seem strange he would allow Marius 12 days. Why not 2 days, which would be really impossible? Maybe he didn't want to appear to be totally obstructionist.

Piggle-wiggle and Piglet I love the nicknames!

I think Marius believed that he had it in himself to become a great man in Rome but he needed someone to show him or reflect that back to him before he really took action. Martha's prophecy made him stand up to Piggle-wiggle and decide to go back to Rome to run for consul. He believed her and sometimes just believing in something is half the battle.

I thought Piggle-wiggle was reference to the childhood incident where they wrestled him into the mud until I saw the reference used during Sulla's honeymoon night activities. Oy! Maybe it was a popular term of endearment, just having a hard time envisioning that word in B.C. Roman times with all the other names they used. I do like the Piglet reference though, kinda funny.

Marius does seem to take the slightest confirmation and run with it, almost fuels him. Some people show their true determination when they have their backs against the wall or are told they cannot do something, and then set out to show others that they can. Marius has that streak running in his life so far. And he does seem very determined.

Appears our man Julius isn't so naive about the goings on of his neighbor, and speculates in his conversation with Marius about Sulla's sudden good fortune. and then asks Marius to take him on as quaestor. Sulla actually seems to take the job seriously! What do you think of how the relationship between Marius and Sulla is unfolding at their first meeting?

Sulla definitely takes the job of quaestor seriously. This is what he's been wanting all his life - to be in the Senate and participate in political life. Sulla has a lot to learn from Marius, never having served in the military, and he is quite impressed. And Marius noticed Sulla early on, but is just getting to know him.

Marius seems to have one eyebrow raised in his view of Sulla. He is giving him a good deal of responsibility but testing him I suspect and keeping him close enough where he can keep an eye on him. I don't think he trusts Sulla, at least not so quickly.

Is Sulla turning a corner or is he just lusting after power and pursing his perceived "birthright"? Maybe he does have some virtues, and just a lot of very bad habits. Is marrying Julilla going to help or hurt him?

Alisa wrote: "After his visit with Martha, Marius heads straight to see Mettellus where things come to a head over Marius' role in the war in Africa. We know what Marius was after, but did it seem plausible that..."

He does seem passionate about Rome's direction, a necessary interest for the politically minded. In our society we divorce the military from politics for the most part, but it is usually the exception.

In fact, in Rome, politics and the military were nearly synonymous. The two heads of state, the consuls, were also the generals leading whatever wars were going on. Sometimes this was disastrous with incompetent generals losing badly. And winning a war, with an accompanying triumph, would give you enormous political clout.

It is interesting to see this develop in the book. It makes sense that politics and military would be so intertwined given the extent of territory battles throughout the region. If a Republic was going to possess any power at all it would surely need to defend its borders, territory, and resources. There is power in control and vis versa, so it follows that those who are most successful in a leadership role must have that complete skill set and savvy about them.

Bryan, correct me if I am wrong, but I think you are pointing out that in the current day we don't require leaders to be military leaders in the traditional sense. War Generals and Presidents are two different people - but that seems different than suggesting that politics and the military don't mix. Our President is the Commander in Chief. Hard to suggest they are entirely separated.

Alisa wrote: "It is interesting to see this develop in the book. It makes sense that politics and military would be so intertwined given the extent of territory battles throughout the region. If a Republic was..."

I think you got my sentiment correct, Alisa. Today, you don't need to be general to be president; I just noticed as Vicki points out, a lot of consuls were generals. But I stop there, because you both are correct, I think politics and the military are intertwined. A number of former generals became POTUS and winning wars boosts polls. And there have been a few high ranking officers that ran for office or were expected to run(ex. Colin Powell in 2000). failed.

It could also be argued that military leadership has long been associated with political leadership. In the case of friends the Romans here one really necessitated the other, and as Vicki points out at least as far as the consulship is concerned. In the book, Marius becomes consul seemingly because of his political maneuvers and now is having to prove himself as a military leader, even though we know he has this attribute. He now needs to prove it for the sake of his political career.

Alisa wrote: "Is Sulla turning a corner or is he just lusting after power and pursing his perceived "birthright"? Maybe he does have some virtues, and just a lot of very bad habits. Is marrying Julilla going t..."

At the end of the chapter, he still seems bored and annoyed with her. Politically, it might still prove to be a good move. It seems Sulla is also bored with the upper-crust life. It makes it easier to fall into those bad habits...

He isn't much of a planner but certainly an opportunitist. I have a hard time seeing how he can stick to much of anything that does not jive with his end game goal, which so far is pure hedonism. He is an entertaining character, for sure. He sure wants the benefits of the upper crust life, but only in the way that he wants them. He doesn't seem so enamored with living the Roman standard.

I think his problem is that he's bored in general. Once he's given something substantial to do, that engages his mind, he'll straighten up.

Vicki you might be right, but I think you might have more faith in him than I do at this point in time. He's a borderline serial killer by now, am having a hard time seeing him snap out of that. Maybe the war thing will supplant that urge. I agree with you that he enjoys a good intellectual stimulation. His early fascination with books and studying, for example.

Interesting, I didn't think of Sulla as a serial-killer, but you make a great point. These are not random kills, but kills nonetheless. He does give you a creepy feeling.

He seems to already enjoy his cruelty. He almost relished in planning Clitumnia's demise.

But you've got to admit, Sulla's the most interesting character so far. I wouldn't want to be one of the people involved with him, but I love watching him from a distance.

Ha! Yes, he is keeping us entertained, that's for sure.

Well, I've fallen behind again . . . I enjoyed this section of the book quite a lot, particularly the political/military maneuverings. One thing I learned: if you were consul, you had to raise and train your own army! Quite a different system than modern US standards. In some ways, there is great practicality behind that - in the process of selecting and training, the consul would have the opportunity to gain the troops' respect and loyalty. He would thoroughly understand their capabilities as well. Downside is that it makes it impossible to gear up quickly should the need arise . . .

As for Sulla, he is despicable and I do NOT find him the most interesting character. Actually for me, Gaius Julius and Gaius Marius fit the bill.

And then the pitiful Julilla - can't stand her. I figure she and Sulla kind of "deserve" each other, and I think their marriage will ultimately be a disaster.

Kay, comment whenever and where you are in the book, no problem. The threads will be up for awhile so people can participate. Everyone reads at a different pace.

The army training is essential and yes interesting that the consuls take it on individually. There really is no unified authority to do it, but those who are charged with leading battles are held responsible for building their armies and ultimately for success or failure of the battles. Knowing their capabilities undoubtedly helps them formulate strategy. At least the better leaders, I would think.

Julilla is pitiful indeed. I'm not a fan either. And like Sulla, very manipulative.

Alisa wrote: "Kay, comment whenever and where you are in the book, no problem. The threads will be up for awhile so people can participate. Everyone reads at a different pace."

Thanks, Alisa.