Pamela Clare ~ Fan Group discussion
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Breaking Point (#5)
message 51:
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Auntee
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Apr 15, 2011 07:04PM
Unfortunately it won't ship until Monday, so it looks like I'll have to wait until Wednesday to get it.:( But I do love those unexpected early release dates!
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Hi, everyone — I'm just dropping in to say the wait is over. Tomorrow is Release Day for BREAKING POINT!I'm taking the day off and will be staying home to blog and chat with anyone who wants to chat about the story or the other I-Team books.
Stop by my FB page or blog or follow me on Twitter to stay up to date on what's going one. There will be giveaways, so it's going to be lots of fun.
I'm so happy the day has finally come. I've been waiting for what feels like forever to share this book with you all.
See you tomorrow!!!
Pamela
Mod
I'm wishing you the very best, the greatest success with Breaking Point. You deserve it all and more!!
**hugs**
Hey, we have a fan page......cool. I already told my kids, for Mother's Day I want a book store gift card. Breaking Point is at the top of my shopping list!
Mod
Umm... what are danglers?
LOL! The anatomically correct name for a dangler is penis. I read it some where and it cracked me up.
Kim, there are definitely danglers in BREAKING POINT. Some of them are brought right out in the open. Some are put to very good use. ;-)
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I kinda thought it might include penis and balls/nuts/testicles/nads... basically any male part that dangled! LOL
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***fans self*** She speaks the truth, Kim!
Pamela wrote: "Kim, there are definitely danglers in BREAKING POINT. Some of them are brought right out in the open. Some are put to very good use. ;-)"And THAT is why I love your books. In my mind your the Wrangler of Danglers. *Fictitiously speaking, of course*
UniquelyMoi *~*Dhestiny*~* wrote: "Pamela wrote: "Kim, there are definitely danglers in BREAKING POINT. Some of them are brought right out in the open. Some are put to very good use. ;-)"***fans self*** She speaks the truth, Kim!"
I can't wait. And no kindle purchase. I WANT MY BOOK COVER!
Soooo everyone, your thoughts on breaking point???Common let's dish!
message 66:
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UniquelyMoi ~ BlithelyBookish, They're All Mine!
(last edited May 08, 2011 01:45PM)
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Mod
(view spoiler)
Dhes - I don't know if you've read my review but, in it I talk about wanting to get my hands on something SO bad that my fingers actually curled. (view spoiler)
Oh, hurray! You're talking about the book. You have NO IDEA how long I've waited — okay, so maybe you do because you waited too — to talk with you all about the story.(view spoiler)
It was very natural for him to do what he did. I didn't plan that moment at all. I didn't plan the banter or the dialogue. I didn't plan any of that. It just happened.
I'm so glad you enjoyed it, though I guess a part of me feels I can't take credit for it. LOL! Thank the Muse.
Mod
Everyone is mentioning it. And no hate mail over (view spoiler). THAT surprises me. I was able to tell through comments when readers reached that part of the book. HAHA!I'm so glad you all enjoyed it. You can't know what that means to me. This is the book I rushed to write 2/3 of after my surgery, starting the epilogue at 4 AM on the day it was due in NY — and then going to work all day. What a Night of the Living Dead that was!
Thank you to all of you who did so much to spread the word and share your enthusiasm for this series.
And, Kim, I'm happy to be a wrangler of danglers. I wish it were in 3D real life, however. LOL!
message 73:
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UniquelyMoi ~ BlithelyBookish, They're All Mine!
(last edited May 08, 2011 07:01PM)
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Aye Dhes. I still think about that moment. It was very touching. I really wish the photos were real. It felt like I could reach in and grab them to see.
Mod
Erika wrote: "Aye Dhes. I still think about that moment. It was very touching. I really wish the photos were real. It felt like I could reach in and grab them to see."Me too! Got a bit teary over that scene.
Trying to stay away from the spoilers but I have to say that I just started and I've already been choked up twice. What are you doing to me, Ms.Clare? ;)
Hi, Jessa — Oh, that's great! Hopefully what I'm doing is telling a story that taps into some deep emotions. :-)
Well your doing a good job so far! It takes a lot for me to cry in a book. Not there yet but if the beginning is any indication to how emotional the rest of the book will be....well, I can see dropping a few tears.
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I shamelessly used my review to request a novella for those guys so that's yet another thing you can be thinking about. ;-)
Congrats! I hope it's selling well. I've got a busy day ahead but I'll be back later because I wanted to point out something I thought was interesting and I wondered if you'd gotten any commentary from it. :D
Mod
And I shamelessly offer my services for acting out the sex scenes to make sure you get all the movements, moans and gasps down pat.
Dhes, you are both SO selfless! I admire your willingness to sacrifice yourself for the sake of fiction. :-)Beanbag, I love that! "Los cuatros amigos caliente." That's awesome.
I'm thinking of whipping up an I-Team novella for Christmas — "An I-Team Christmas." So you may be in luck. It would involve the women (and kids), too, but it would of course feature los cuatros amigos. :-)
I'll watch for your question. So far, there's been the buzz you see here on Goodreads, but there's also been some seriously backlash against Natalie leaving her job. http://www.likesbooks.com/boards/view...
And there's been some question as to why "so many" heroines are pregnant.
I have responses to both of these, but I'll wait to see what your question is. :-)
God, I can't type! "Serious backlash." Not sure where the -ly came from. I'm in Ithaca, NY, right now for my son's senior thesis film showing. We were up last night till after 2 AM. #BrainFail.
message 84:
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UniquelyMoi ~ BlithelyBookish, They're All Mine!
(last edited May 14, 2011 12:33PM)
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Yes, and in keeping with said selflessness, I'd like to volunteer to be the present under the Christmas tree for the Christmas novella. If I do say so myself, red is a good color on me, so I'd like to be donning a red satin ribbon, and nothing else, except for the I-Team men.
'Twill truly be the season of giving. And giving and giving....
:)
I just bet you'd love those four amigos to unwrap you, wouldn't you, Dhes?So what is Santa going to bring me? I guess a NEW hero. :-)
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*gasp* Are you taunting us?
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POSSIBLE SPOILERS FOLLOW:
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As soon as I read that I thought "oh that's going to tick some people off". I thought it was a unique choice because they're waiting to have kids but she left her job to be a homemaker anyway. Now this does not bother me at all, I just knew it might cause some controversy.
So I see that it did.
My thoughts on her decision:
1. She and Zach have both had multiple NDEs. They know how precious each moment together is going to be because they each lost the people they cared for the most during an NDE. His job, while not as dangerous as before, is risky. I can see her wanting to make sure she's where he is whenever he's off the clock.
2. She just survived one of the worst experiences someone can possibly go through and I know I would definitely want some serious downtime to spend in a safe place with my man.
3. I have no problem with a woman (or a man) wanting to provide the best landing pad possible for a spouse who has a dangerous or stressful job. Adding a kid to the equation doesn't make the job more credible, it just makes it that much more rewarding.
I knew people would be bugged and think less of Natalie but I think they just don't quite get the extent of the job a woman has taken on when she leaves the typical workforce for the (often thankless) SAH position.
Off my soapbox now. ;-)
So I guess my real question is, what inspired that choice for Natalie? It's definitely unique and somewhat controversial. Did you know you were courting controversy when you wrote it?
BTW -- Christmas with the amigos caliente would be lovely.
Mod
I get a little offended when "working women" look down on us "stay home" wives and mothers. It's a hell of a lot of work to take care of a family full time, and I home schooled my last 2 kids which meant I had given up any "me" time, but the "sacrifice" was worth it.
Mod
That's so exciting! Congratulations to you both, and please let us know how it goes!
Mod
First, yes, I am a very proud mama. I adore my boys to the very ends of the earth and would rip out my own heart and throw it in the street for them. (Fortunately, the need to do that has not yet arisen.)I'm really glad you asked that question about Natalie. Here is my official response (feel free to copy and paste if you find yourself in a discussion).
Soap Box, Part I
Regarding the decision to have Natalie leave her career:
First, people are free to think whatever they want about my characters. Women who want to call Natalie names and disparage her for making a choice they don't understand are free to do so. It's not my job to tell them how to react to the book. The experience of reading it belongs to each individual reader.
But leaving her journalism career is what I intended for Natalie.
I've seen it said that all the I-Team women leave their careers. If by "all" people mean "just Natalie," then they are correct. Kat and Tessa become freelancers and write books, which isn't so much leaving journalism as rising to the very highest ranks of journalism. That is what every journalist secretly wishes to do. So they don't leave it. Sophie and Kat, who became journalists for specific reasons, have stayed at the paper even after becoming mothers. Only Natalie leaves her job.
Why?
I try to make it clear from the beginning that journalism is a career that kind of "happened" to her. She wanted to be a vet, but didn't have the math chops and ended up being a journalist because she's naturally curious and writes well.
Then she lost her parents and Beau, and the promising and fun career she might have had (at least until kids came along) became an empty thing for her. She thinks of it as a professional ennui. She's lost her passion for it and is more or less going through the motions.
Then all the stuff happens — those NDEs you talked about. She witnesses the extreme nature of Zach's suffering (torture, PTSD). And by the time everything is over, what matters to her isn't the job or getting ahead but savoring every moment of life.
Further, she knows Zach isn't through the transition he has to face in dealing with his own past. Also, he has a very dangerous job still. She CHOOSES to give up the career that has lost its appeal in order to spend her days making their lives comfortable. When he comes home, she's able to enjoy being with him 100 percent rather than feeling burnt out and tired and grumpy.
Some people have seen her "sacrifice" as unfair; she's giving up her career for *him* as if leaving a job to be a wife is the lowest, most mundane and terrible waste of womanhood that every existed. Gasp! How awful! One person said she became a "boring" character at that point. One even suggested that her decision was "unhealthy" even if it was to support Zach in overcoming his PTSD.
Wow. I knew the decision would be controversial, but I don't know how controversial it would be. And I have to ask: What has happened to us as women that we can't respect other women's decisions? If the only right way is the "career path," then feminism has failed utterly. If the only choice we can make is the one pre-approved by some sort of careerist cadre, then there really are no choices. It's like voting in the Soviet Union.
Sure you can vote — for one candidate.
I'm known as a pretty hardcore feminist in the world of journalism. But I believe every woman should make her own decisions about how to live her life. I've had a successful career by any measure. National Journalism Award. Lifetime Achievement Award at the age of 47. Several national awards, including investigative awards. Many, many state journalism awards. A new state law that I wrote. Ten published novels. PLUS I raised two boys. And it was HARD! My kids would come from school to the newsroom everyday. I fed them TV dinners cooked in the office microwave while trying to put the paper to bed. I had no choice. I had to achieve to have the money to feed by kids. I KNOW the path of the career woman with kids. Would I leave my job to be at home with a man I loved if I didn't need to work, even now that my kids are grown? Yes, in a heartbeat. (And I would write a lot more novels.)
I dare anyone to tell me to my face that such a decision would make me "boring" or less intelligent or less driven.
But back to Natalie...
I can't fathom how deciding to live as a (somewhat pampered) stay-at-home wife means she's boring. She's just survived hell on earth. Now, she's finding her footing again, and she's helping her new husband — a man she loves more than life itself — to find his footing, too. It's not just for him, though, it's also for her.
She already lost one man. She came within a hair's breath of losing Zach. Career just doesn't mean very much to her compared to living a quiet, peace-filled life with her new husband.
What is wrong with that and how can that decision possibly mean that Natalie is some kind of loser?
I think we as a society have lost the idea that serving the needs of those we love is a GOOD thing, or can be a good thing provided one is not abused or taken advantage of. Most women wouldn't see it as "unfair" if a man pushed his wife out of the way of a bullet and died in her place. Where are the women shouting, "That's unhealthy. Why should he give up his life for her just because he's the man? Why is it less terrible for him to die than for her?" We don't hear that because we admire that sacrifice. But we no longer value the sacrifice of the mother who stays at home because we simply don't value that kind of work. But we're women. Why shouldn't we value the work of all women's minds, hands, and souls?
Soap Box, Part II
Here are two scenarios. Please name the unhealthy one.
1. Both spouses work. They come home late. No one wants to cook. Some shit is thawed in the microwave or take-out is fetched. They eat, talk over their stressful days. Both need rest and TLC, both are very depleted and have little to give the other one. They fight over who does the dishes. She feels he doesn't do enough housework. He just saw two teens with their heads shot off and thinks she needs to understand his job more. Then kids come along, and their life gets even more stressful, with bigger fights over who does what.
2. He comes home, depleted, exhausted, just having seen two teens with their heads shot off. The housework was done during the day. A quiet dinner is waiting with some wine. They talk. He feels appreciated, understood. He appreciates all she's done to make their life together comfortable, compliments her on the food. They don't fight. Instead they have sex and both go to sleep happy.
I think I'd rather live choice #2. Is that an idealized version of reality? Sure. My real life was more like choice #1, and I filed for divorce.
Lots of people live choice #1, often because it isn't a choice. Most families need two incomes. Some women work when they would rather stay home with their kids. Other women truly identify with their careers and want to have it all — career success and a family.
In those cases, the couple has to work very hard to make sure neither person is neglected or taken advantage of in terms of their emotional and physical needs and things like housework. It's a tough row to hoe, especially once babies are involved. After all, babies come from women's bodies and require months of gestation, birthing, breast milk — all of which takes a toll on a woman and demands her attention.
But couples who truly dedicate themselves to balancing their lives and supporting one another make this work. That's not most couples in my experience. Fighting over housework and other chores is one of the biggest reasons women name as contributing to divorce.
I'm not saying that the solution is for the woman to take off her business suit and pick up a broom. I'm saying that if a woman WANTS to stay home and CAN stay home, there may be some benefits for her and her family if she chooses to do so. Natalie sees and appreciates those benefits and makes that choice.
If she had felt the same way about her job that Sophie does, I'm sure she and Zach would have worked hard to sort it out. But Natalie is not Sophie.
Soap Box, Part III
A. VERY few women stay in investigative journalism for any amount of time. It's very confrontational, and 99.9 percent of the young women who go into it bail within the first two or three years. That's the hard truth. I have TRIED to nurture women in this career. I've personally tried to groom them for success. At this point, 20 years into my career, precisely ONE of the women who entered investigative journalism under my editorship have stayed (and she is now in radio, not print). Natalie's decision to leave is a very realistic one measured against that standard, which I have personally experienced over and over and over again.
B. How in the world can I bring in new I-Team characters if no one leaves the I-Team? Kat replaced Kara. Natalie replaced Tessa. I can't just make the I-Team bigger. Investigative teams are mostly a thing of the past in journalism. An investigative team of 20? I think not.
C. I'm eager to leave journalism but haven't made it out the door yet. My own desires might be leaking in to my characters. Sue me.
D. Staying home with small children is much harder than a day at the office. I know. I stayed home until my older son was 6 and my younger son was 3. Going to work felt like a vacation.
Soap Box, Part IV
I've often been told by stay-@-home moms that they feel career women are biased against them and think less of them because they stay home. They feel unappreciated for their hard work — and it IS hard work. They say working women just don't respect them.
I've always thought this was baloney. Why would women disrespect the choices of other women?
I've decided now that it's true. And how sad is that? Women should support other women. If one woman decides to dedicate her life to IBM and not have kids, another decides to become a professor and have just two kids, and yet a third decides to stay at home and raise a big family with four children, can't we all agree that these are three fantastic women?
Hopefully, Beanbag, this answers your question in every possible way.
/soapbox
Thanks Pamela for this post. I have been pretty upset by women writing negative things about this. I have very strong feelings that women need to do what's best for them whether it's stay at home with the kids or work. I will keep it nice and just say that why the heck are women so stuck up on this? At the end of the day you need to do what makes you the happiest. I have many friends who would love to stay at home with their kids but can't afford it. It's almost become a status symbol to be able to stay home :) but other women want to work and enjoy their work so why shouldn't they continue working if they want.Let me say that after visiting Wyoming last year and seeing how beautiful it was, I would be a stay at home wife/mother in a heart beat if I could live in the mountains there. But I don't like my job so I think that helps :)
Hi, Melissa — Thanks for your thoughts. You're so right that a lot of women would quit their jobs if they could.You know, another thing that I found strange was the number of women who've commented about the "babies in the ER" scene. I put it in there for these reasons:
1. The babies are part of my characters' lives and they love them. The babies mean as much to them as my grown "babies" mean to me.
2. I KNEW that many readers who totally gush at the chance to see the I-Team men with their tiny offspring. More readers have commented in a positive way about "seeing" Marc holding his baby girl against his Kevlar than have dissed the scene.
3. It's realistic. It's after working hours. They all rush to the ER to find out what's going on with Natalie. And daycare closes. What do they do with the kids? They're anxious to be at Natalie's side, so they just meet at the ER, and whoever picked the kids up brings them. What's the big deal?
Someone posted that I'm worse than most authors when it comes to "babylogues." OK, fine. I'm alright with that.
But these women are all in their late 20s, early 30s, and if they want to have babies without the help of technology, their best bet is to get on it. They're married to the wonderful men of their dreams, so it seems natural they'd want to have kids sooner rather than later.
I don't know about everyone else, but I went through a period where I and all my friends were having babies at the same time. This one was pregnant. I was pregnant. Someone else was pregnant. We kind of experienced it together. Was that some kind of unnatural babylogue, or was the just the natural course of life for women of roughly the same age?
I think some readers just don't like kids in books, and that's fine. I don't like kick-ass "sheroes." We all have our likes and dislikes.
But I write the stories the way I write them for a reason. They reflect a kind of womanhood that I know — idealized around a perfect romance with just the right man, of course — and that feels natural for a lot of women.
As I said in my post above, I've had a successful career by any standard. But out of all the things I've accomplished, the thing I'm most proud of is being a mother.
I like the babies so no complaints here. A strong man holding a baby? Total meltdown :)
I so totally agree! There's a poster out there of some shirtless ripped guy with stubble on his jaw holding a newborn. It makes my knees weak!
Mod
Mod
Thanks, Pamela!
What I knew would be controversial about Natalie's decision was that she didn't have the Golden Baby Ticket that allows a woman (or man) to be a home-maker. For some reason that's the only reason other women even come close to accepting that role for a woman.
As far as SAHMs/SAHDs go, we make contributions that people depend on but take somewhat for granted. Volunteering at schools which helps shore up the adult to kid ratio in the classroom, fund-raising for the schools, chaparoning field trips, coaching kiddie sports teams (although working parents also do that one), leading Girl/Boy Scout troops (and other clubs), crossing guard duty ... there are a lot of things that need to happen in a community that are often taken care of by SAHM/Ds and retirees. And I've seen a lot of folks talk about both groups as "sitting on their asses all day". Yet they enjoy the fruits of their/our labors without even noticing. Without people like retirees and SAHM/D you don't really have much of a community.
You're so right, Pamela, feminism should be seen as opening doors, not closing them. And men should have all those doors open for them too. I've seen so-called feminists disparage a SAHD as a "bum". Huh? That just doesn't make any sense.
Anyway, thanks for the detailed answer. I'm sorry that some people can't see beyond their own prejudices to celebrating Natalie's decision and wishing for the best for her. I think it's a knee-jerk thing, really. If they actually thought about it, put themselves in the shoes of this couple, they'd see that this is as gutsy a "career choice" as any other.
I think I actually 'awwwed' out loud...with a little eye rolling from my hubby, lol....during the men and babies scene. So precious! Oh, and I have to give props to the scene between Marc and Julian. OMG! So emotional. I love their connection. I could totally see them holding each other and giving strength and comfort during such a traumatic time. I would love to have a copy of that picture Joaquin took! The raw emotion of two alpha's breaking down their barriers for love and friendship. *shivers* Good stuff, Ms. Clare!
Pamela wrote: "First, yes, I am a very proud mama. I adore my boys to the very ends of the earth and would rip out my own heart and throw it in the street for them. (Fortunately, the need to do that has not yet a..."Pamela, I want to print your multi-topic soap box and hand it to people when the need arises. I've been fortunate in my life to do what I most wanted to do, stay home with my kids. I genuinely admire women who work and raise children, and can attest that they are doing it well, raising great children. And my hat is off to them for working all day and then working all night, too. To stay at home (with 5 children, who I've also home schooled) we did without a LOT of things other families have had, like regular vacations, nicer neighborhoods, and newer cars. (Two of our cars are over 15 years old.) My kids haven't been able to join many activities or go to the cool summer camps. They all shared small rooms with bunk beds. While we always had decent computers (dh is a programmer) we did without extras like cable TV. My kids got used to shopping bargains for everything, including used clothing stores. My oldest daughter did her entire wedding for $5000 and it was beautiful. (We spent half on great food, and then found unique ways to save on photography, cake, flowers, etc.)
It's been interesting to note that because we chose to have a larger than average family, and I stayed home, my intelligence is questioned. It still surprises some people to find out I'm a college grad and had a good job in genetic research before I quit to stay at home.
I'm helping my (3) daughters to make life choices now with all options in mind: being single and working full-time, married and working full or part-time, single mom (it happens), stay-at-home mom. We're doing things like looking at career options that they could possibly do part time in the future. I've never regretted being a SAHM, but I do regret not having some skill that would allow me to bring in supplemental income. (I do bring in some money teaching science classes for home school students.)
Thank you for seeing the value of the many different choices available for women.
(And many kudos on another great book.)
Pamela Clare ~ Fan Group
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Breaking Point (other topics)Breaking Point (other topics)
Breaking Point (other topics)
