Aussie Readers discussion

It happens to us all, every now and then when we're riding high and well we get slammed with a review that makes absolutely no sense, as if the reader had their brains scooped out and replaced with ice-cream or they picked up the wrong book entirely.

You sit there reading the venomous, condescending and downright hurtful comments that surely could only be a case of the reviewer using your hard work as an unfortunately placed and timed punching bag... surely?

Curious to hear stories from people who have endured such things and how they responded.

Paul.

(Sorry folks, listed this in the wrong area, as it wasn't an "intro" to any authors ;) - put it into banter now).

I don't know. It would be interesting to experience a bad review sometime...

Relax, just kidding. Everyone is paranoid about their work and we focus on a bad review or even a disagreeable comment in a good review. Never mind all the good things people have said, it's that negative comment that keeps us awake at night.

It goes along with artistic creation and everyone suffers to some degree. I try to force myself to be rational and believe the majority. If I get a bad attack of self doubt, I can always go and read a bit of The Da Vinci Code for instant relief. Even my shopping list is better than that.

I had my book up on authonomy for a while and had mostly positive reviews - certainly nothing nasty.

Now that it's getting published, I've committed to donating half the royalties to Bhutanese organisations working to resolve certain issues in the country. I was hoping for an endorsement from one of those organisations that I had direct contact with while I was there, but was disappointed.

The head of the organisation said that I didn't understand Bhutanese people at all and that my book was shallow and lopsided. Interestingly, she thought the usual 'beautiful country, friendly people' trash was more balanced.

I dealt with this by laughing at it and wondering how someone whose job is dealing with issues in the country could be blind to the fact there are issues. I'm not looking forward to reviews that say my writing is confusing, my characters lack depth, the story isn't engaging and I spend too much time in self-indulgence. I guess I'll learn to laugh at those too.

I gave a book a fairly cutting review once. In all fairness to the book it was about ghosts which is one of my least favourite storylines. I wrote about the MC's 'interminable internal monologues' which really annoyed me. Subsequently I noticed the author was 'following' me on Goodreads so I sent her a 'friend' invite and we chatted at length. Turns out it was her first book and she acknowledged my criticisms and thanked me for reading the book because it had brought it to the notice of lots of other readers, some of whom loved it and gave it 5 stars. Eventually I felt a little guilty and went back and changed 'interminable' to 'frequent' which seemed less harsh. But I always thought this author approached the whole situation with such openness and a friendly attitude. I wish I could take criticism as well as her!;)

That's a great story, Mandy. It's certainly an attitude to aspire to.

I've tried to take a similar attitude with the feedback I mentioned in my earlier post. I still believe in what the organisation is doing and will still pass some of the royalties on to them whether they recognise it or not. I have also made some corrections based on the feedback. It took a while for the hurt to dwindle, but I feel better for taking it in my stride.

I think though that there's frequently a notable difference between a hard review and one that's just outright bile. A harsh review you can ascend to - the pure-bile ones are a little more difficult.

(I should point out, in my other work areas - namely electronics, is where i've received quite a lot of vicious attacks).

Paul.

A friend of mine often says that 'Opinions are like arseholes, everyone's got one.' (Pardon the French)

I have the first chapter of my book up on Youwriteon and it's interesting to see who is in the same mindset as me, and who isn't. Some critique is warranted but some is way off the mark.

One person even thought my characters didn't 'feel' Australian when he realised the work was from an Aussie author. Even though the book is set in the Afterlife, he felt they sounded more New York. I guess he was expecting the protagonist to be something like Steve Irwin.

My assessor understood what I was doing over the several drafts she gave me feedback on. Another assessor slammed it. If and when I get more reviews I'm expecting a range of opinions. Good, indifferent and WTF. Some of it I'll take on board, some not.

A critique can tell you just as much about the person writing it as it can about your own writing.

Paul wrote: "(I should point out, in my other work areas - namely electronics, is where i've received quite a lot of vicious attacks)."

"...Paul seems to display resistance to new ideas ... constantly flip-flopping ... improperly grounded..."

Is this a direct quote Mark or are you offering your own feedback for Paul's benefit?

...has difficulties getting on with colleges due to his vampire tendencies...,

Gail "cyborg" wrote: "Is this a direct quote Mark or are you offering your own feedback for Paul's benefit?"

It was more meant as a throw-away collection of very bad puns of a mildy geeky nature.


Gail "cyborg" further offered: "...has difficulties getting on with colleges due to his vampire tendencies...,"

Hey! I resemble that remark! Withdraw it at once, or I'll be forced to channel Huey Long and cast about accusations of thespianism and lacrimation! :D

Edit:
In the spirit of contributing, we've yet to see a scathing one. It'll come, sooner or later, we know it will... but hopefully not for any of the review copies we've got out in the wild right now.

It's okay Gail... Mark's comments were, as he said, a collection of geek-puns. :) :p

I got that. It may not have come across in my response, (that was why I added the vampire comment to add to his list of throw aways) obviously not successfully.. :) Feeling very dull today. :(

I think we're all on the ragged edge of brain function right now... for me it's because I was naughty last night and didn't kick off the computer until about 02H00. :oops:

... okay, maybe it's just me.

Talk about smacking a gift-horse in the gob, Murray. I hope your book proves the knockers wrong. You've piqued my interest. Must check it out.

In regard to reviews: I think it's worse getting great reviews only to be followed by dismal sales. This happened with my last title: The Ice-cream Man. It even scored a rave by one of the higher-ups in the CBCA, so I was thinking, yes, this is gonna be huge! While poor reviews would have been hard to swallow, at least I wouldn't have expected much saleswise.

Great line, Lynley. I remember Ru Paul saying that to a drag queen recently. 'What someone else thinks of you is none of your business!'

So true with critics as well.

Jacqueline wrote: "I don't know. It would be interesting to experience a bad review sometime...

Relax, just kidding. Everyone is paranoid about their work and we focus on a bad review or even a disagreeable comment ..."

Totally agree with you Jacqueline. I've given more thought to the one indifferent review of one of my books, than all the positive, enthusiastic ones!(Maybe people are just too polite apart from that one reader...)
I think most authors are so full of self doubt we get knocked down by the merest puff of criticism once a book's out there. Maybe we're just compulsive masochists.
And I always think of The Da Vinci Code too, when the left side of my brain is telling the right side I can't write for nuts!

Lynley wrote: "...is unnecessary, which makes me want to read enough to form my own opinion."

Hear that noise? It's the publisher's marketing department, rubbing their hands together, whispering "You just can't buy publicity like this!"

So, just out of curiosity, is it a Norwegian Blue?

No wonder it was a dead parrot then!

Joanne wrote: "No wonder it was a dead parrot then!"

It's just pining.

Lynley wrote: "It helps if the author dies, too. And if there's an ugly lawsuit to follow about who gets the royalties... or something."

That's funny, Joanne Valiukas and I were discussing that particular marketing strategy the other day. I can't say any more on that here until I have a rock-solid alibi... ;)

Lynley wrote: "Death. Not recommended as a marketing strategy.

I was wondering, what proportion of authors would choose between:

1. little success during own lifetime, writing alongside an annoying day job but ..."

Mark wrote: "Joanne wrote: "No wonder it was a dead parrot then!"

It's just pining."

#2 will do me just fine.

Are there fjords in Sweden?

Literary criticism is quite important in the choice of what I read next.

Generally speaking, I tend to read nothing other than classics. As I'm sure you're all aware, there are literally thousands of quality works of art out there, and in this day and age, we are limited to only reading so many.

Thus, I need a means in which I can sift through the better and worse works, so that I can have read more quality pieces of literature before, well, I die.

Here's a reader's perspective. If you're writing for #2, please let me know so I don't want to waste my time on your works. I want to read what's being written by people who passionately have something memorable to say, who write with sincerity, craftsmanship, and love. If you just want to make a buck or two, I'd rather you share some of Stephenie Meyers' or Tony Hillerman's bucks.

That's my opinion. If you (generic you, not any of you in particular) don't like it, don't bother feeling insulted or whatever - if you empathize with me, bear it in mind when you write. Ok.

I received my first bad review recently, on Amazon, 1 star, for Blueprint For Love (wr/as Monya Clayton). At first it just smarted, like burning a finger lighting the stove. (Ours is gas.) I vented about it on my online writers group and was vastly encouraged and comforted by their responses. Then I went back and read it again. Well...

Poor spelling ("the hero is a JERKass") , poor grammar, lots of nastiness. I almost felt sorry for the reader/reviewer. Then I laughed. The poor soul is probably quite a nice person in her own world, but the awfulness of the review approaches classic status in the world of Awfulness.

I couldn't take it seriously. The Amazon reviews for The Pirate And The Puritan (wr/as Mary Clayton) made some valid criticisms which I've taken on board. It's hard, after all, to view one's own "baby" with detachment.

Monya Mary

As a reader, I love reading the good and bad reviews. Bad reviews don't necessarily put me off reading a book. I follow one lady who's reviews just crack me up laughing. My tastes and hers often differ so if she gives a book a hard time it draws my attention to it.

Oooh, I have experience!!! *waves hand madly* You want to grow thick skin in a hurry? Write a first-person present-tense multi-narrator short with quick POV switches, lots of swearing, a bit of sex, a couple of gay guys and Aussie spelling. I swear some people reading DEAD(ish) didn't know what to do first, faint in shock or write a scathing review.

But in all seriousness, I try to look at each negative review rationally and decide whether it has some valid points (I doubt my writing's perfect just yet), or whether it goes in the 'point and laugh' basket. Complaints about foul language, bad spelling (eg. 'arse'), references to my obvious lack of education, and vague 'bad writing' statements go in the latter.

I suppose I'd worry more if I hadn't thought this stuff out in advance. I knew when I was writing DEAD(ish) that it would garner a lot of negative feedback, because it's not in a traditional style and yes, there IS swearing galore. So I worked out where I was aiming my writing, and I worry about THAT market. If I start getting reviews saying that my work is 'tired', 'boring' or 'just like ____', I'll start sobbing into my coffee.

Ahhh Naomi you have just convinced me to add your book to my TBR list. :)

Gail "cyborg" wrote: "Ahhh Naomi you have just convinced me to add your book to my TBR list. :)"

*lol* Thanks Gail! I hope you enjoy it, when you get to it. Or at least, that you don't faint dead away. ;-)

We've just sent ToL off to a reviewer with a fairly critical eye... going to be curious to see how that one comes back :|

Paul wrote: "We've just sent ToL off to a reviewer with a fairly critical eye... going to be curious to see how that one comes back :|"

...the same one who just gave DFFfG ***, perchance? I noticed T0L in her TBR list.

Mark, no - someone else entirely (we have about 4 pending critiques).

I cope by ignoring them if they have nothing to teach me. I had one really dumb review - 1 star, said the book was light romance (it isn't) and I just couldn't imagine the book he was talking about was the one I'd written.

I had an okay review (good story, less-than-great writing)) and I took the comments to heart. Some helpful feedback actually. I was tempted to ask the reviewer if she wanted to read one of my works in progress and tell me if I'd improved based on her comments. But that seemed a bit too much to ask.

The problem/fear is that the first idiot might discourage someone from reading my book because they hate light romance, especially if it's a bad light romance. But since there's nothing I can do (beyond NOT linking to that review on my website) I just don't think about it.

Laura there are good and bad reviews for every book in existence, yours would have to be a exceptionally extraordinary book to escape (not that I am implying your book isn't extraordinary). There are also always going to be idiots, there is no avoiding it. Thankfully we all have different tastes and expectations. As a reader it's easy to be critical of a book. I'm sure it must be very hard on authors who have put his or her heart and soul into writing it.

Gail "cyborg" wrote: "Laura there are good and bad reviews for every book in existence, yours would have to be a exceptionally extraordinary book to escape (not that I am implying your book isn't extraordinary). There a..."

Gail, thanks for helping me keep it in perspective. But honestly, I don't know how any author could be devastated by a bad review because surely they've had their share of ego slaps from prospective agents and/or publishers and hopefully they've had some honest people review their book pre-publication who told them the truth about the worst bits so they could rewrite before it was too late.

By the time your book hits the shelves, it seems to me it is impossible to have even a small patch of thin skin left.

Maybe it's an initiation process you have to go through in order to ensure you can survive the negative reviews.

I am glad (though immensely jealous at the same time) that I'm not creative. My skin wouldn’t make it to first base. :)

Let's not forget that a lot of people now go through the self-publishing route first and even more so the eBook route rather than printing; subsequently a lot of authors have not had the barrage of rejects until they encounter their first bad-review.

I know what you mean about the "Did they even read the right book?" mind set. A bad reviewer can be one that sets themselves into a preconceived notion of what the book is about rather than going into the book moderately 'open' (unless of course they've been guided by the cover/synopsis). Even if they had the wrong preconception they should still be a sufficiently elevated reviewer to readjust and simply make note of the disparity in their review as opposed to just panning the book outright.

Paul.

Paul wrote: "Let's not forget that a lot of people now go through the self-publishing route first and even more so the eBook route rather than printing; subsequently a lot of authors have not had the barrage of..."

Paul, even those who self-publish must have someone read their book. Or don't they??? I suppose, either way it's probably not as horrifying, emotionally damanging and character building :-) as baring your soul to every publisher and agent silly enough to post an address on line.

Which leads to a folowup question to the one in this thread - what is worse, a rejection or silence? Similarly, what is worse, a dreadful review or silence (I've sent my book to a many reviewers who don't bother answering or worse, who say they'll review it but never do.)

Truly, you need thick skin if you want to write.

Laura,

I think the problem is that a lot of the people immediately around you whom would be offering feedback will tend to be quite gentle with you, if they're that sort of family/friend.

Paul.

Paul,

Absolutely. I've never written an ugly sentence according to my father. He's wrong! But I love him for it.

The hunt for honest feedback is never ending and exhausting. But I'd rather hear it BEFORE my book gets rejected or a lousy review.

Which I know isn't true of all authors. I've given feedback to others - some don't ask twice :-O

There are people who seek only to be appraised and there are those who seek to improve, we just have to choose which one we want to be :)

My first bad review was, I thought, a little odd as the reviewer liked my writing style and command of the English language [quoting a bit there] but he just didn't like the story.

The harshest review I ever got was actually from my nephew, a huge fantasy fan, who thought it took me way too long for the story to start to get interesting. He said he 'hated the beginning, persevered and absolutely loved the last half of the book.' Knowing how honest he is taught me I need to learn how to hook readers quicker.

Tracey wrote: "My first bad review was, I thought, a little odd as the reviewer liked my writing style and command of the English language [quoting a bit there] but he just didn't like the story.

The harshest ..."

Tracey, I heard an author talk once and she said she always deleted the first 5000 words of her books. She said she had to write it to get the context right for herself, but it never turned out to be something the reader needed to know.

I was fascinated by that advice and have never followed it - but I have a sneaking suspicion I should.

Mmmh - don't start me on information dumping. Seems that most self-appointed authorities on writing (the ones that did Creative Writing 101 at college and then dropped out) have retained memories of two great sins - Telling not Showing, and Information Dumping. And they pull out their school notes to castigate any author that dares to spend some time setting a scene.

It is just possible that a life time devoted to High School, television and the local shopping mall has not given these people a very wide experience of the world, but they do not want to be told anything.

I have just pulled Erica Jong's Serenissima from my shelf. It is set in 16th century Venice and the author lets her romantic attachment to Shakespeare run loose. Now, how on earth is she going to re-create antique Venice for us without Telling, and even passing on some Information?

Erica is American and therefore sensitive about these things. The result is a rambling, rather disjointed starting sequence using a modern actress to transfer the pictures. This is just about her only function; she is just like a Shakespearean Prologue.

Another random book - The Tin Drum by Gunter Grass. Of course, Gunter is a foreigner and therefore allowed time to set his scene - which he does in page after page of Telling, with hardly any dialogue. Still an absorbing start.

Would we be better off if these authors had had their bad habits beaten out of them in Creative Writing 101? I doubt it.

An author MUST engage the reader early in the piece, but the question is, which reader? A bubble-headed city chick who struggles with any text longer than an SMS, or the professor of Ancient Philosophy looking for a light read? Or Goodreaders, who mostly lie somewhere in between?

Jacqueline wrote: "Mmmh - don't start me on information dumping. Seems that most self-appointed authorities on writing (the ones that did Creative Writing 101 at college and then dropped out) have retained memories ..."

Jacqueline, Here Here!

I recently had a similar argument with a group of writers on the "show don't tell" thing. I said I didn't mind being told and often found it much better than having some artificial scene set up in an inappropriate place so I could "see" eyebrows bouncing and hear gasps bursting. I gave some examples and, I kid you not, was told that dead authors used to write that way. People like Tolstoy. But that it's just not done these days.

There appears to be a big push for homogeneous writing: show don't tell, no adverbs, avoid passive voice or suffer the consequences, start with an action scene, oh, and have a good plot if you can.

I agree that as readers we probably miss out because of this narrow focus, but as a writer, I'm congnisant of the fact that if I step out of bounds too far, I have buckleys of getting published.

So I break the rules (none of my books "show" an explosion, murder or invasion by aliens in the first chapter), try to follow the rules (every time I type the dreaded "was" I flinch) and I pray that one day I'll have some success and be able to publish what I want and have it sitting on library shelves around the country.

I am really enjoying various debates I've read about the difference between literary reviews by professional critics and reviews written by online book clubs and blogs. There seems to be a bad case of sour grapes on the part of literary critics towards the popularity of online book reviews. They have several good points though and personally I feel both professional and amateur reviewing adds immensely to the choices readers have when choosing a book. Here are some interesting articles if you are interested in this debate:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/media/...

http://blog.beliefnet.com/roddreher/2...

And a quote from the article "Bugger the bloggers - Old world critics still count":

“Much has been written about the revolutionary potential of the internet for criticism. It is ridiculously cheap, blisteringly fast and the online community it engenders is one that thrives on argument and constant to-and-fro. Most significantly, the web breaks the monopoly on criticism once held by analog-era organs and allows everyone to have their say.
Just because the medium allows argument to thrive, however, does not mean that it is ideal for criticism.
For every brilliant new blogger that has emerged, 100 pallid yes-men (and women) have sprung up. And while these bloggers often define themselves against in-house elitists who impose their tastes from above, they have a tendency to move in digital packs, to think as hive minds.
But there is nothing lonelier than a true critical response. Whether calling out a dud novel by a writer of reputation or trying to drag an overlooked work of merit from the swamp of mediocrity, the critic is doing their job to the degree that they achieve separation from massed opinion.”

Often forgotten - to criticise is actually a neutral verb, referring to the act of studying and assessing a work. If you are critically ill in hospital, you could go either way.

A quote from somewhere - Most critics are failed authors, but then, so are most authors...

Jacqueline wrote: "Often forgotten - to criticise is actually a neutral verb, referring to the act of studying and assessing a work. If you are critically ill in hospital, you could go either way.

A quote from som..."

Always love your comments Jacqueline!:D

Lots of good advice here. I think what I try to do most with my books is tell a story - that may sometimes involve a little information dump so you understand why a character does something later on, sometimes I tell and now show but I figure IF I'm telling a good story then I'm doing something right and most people tell me my books are good stories. :)