Paranormal Romance & Urban Fantasy discussion

I have asked this before and get a different confusing answer every time. Will be interesting to see what you get.

From what I can tell, PNR tends to stick to the romance template where the women tend to need rescuing but then finds she is strong and the man is an alpha type who thinks he is a loner and then finds he really needs to open up to love. UF seems to be more of an adventure story, characters may follow some of the typical stereotypes but don't have to do so. The focus on relationships is diminished in favor of focusing more on world building and action.

Per Wiki...

Paranormal romance blends the real with the fantastic or science fictional. The fantastic elements may be woven into an alternate version of our own world in an urban fantasy involving vampires, demons, and/or werewolves, or they may be more "normal" manifestations of the paranormal—humans with psychic abilities, witches, or ghosts. Time-travel, futuristic, and extraterrestrial romances also fall beneath the paranormal umbrella.[2][3]

These novels often blend elements of other subgenres, including suspense and mystery, with their fantastic themes.[4] A few paranormals are set solely in the past and are structured much like any historical romance novel. Others are set in the future, sometimes on different worlds. Still others have a time-travel element with either the hero or the heroine traveling into the past or the future.[5] Between 2002 and 2004, the number of paranormal romances published in the United States doubled to 170 per year. A popular title in the genre can sell over 500,000 copies.[6]

As in the fantasy subgenre known as urban fantasy, many paranormal romances rely on the blend of contemporary life with the existence of supernatural or magically-empowered beings, human or otherwise; sometimes the larger culture is aware of the magical in its midst, sometimes it isn't. Some paranormal romances focus less on the specifics of their alternative worlds than do traditional science fiction or fantasy novels, keeping the attention strongly on the underlying romance.[7] Others develop the alternate reality meticulously, combining well-planned magical systems and inhuman cultures with contemporary reality.

Fluttrbs wrote: "Would Christine Feehan's Carpathain be UF rather than PRN?"

I believe they are PNR.

Took me a while to figure this out (hey, I'm slow, okay?), but here's my short version: PNR = series of books with different couple in each book. UF = series with same couple in each book with different storyline. Personally, I love both.

The wiki article is interesting.

I've wondered about that myself. There seems to be some overlap. But basically it comes down to the amount of sex. Urban Fantasy has little or no sex. If you want some headboard banging fairies or vampires, you're better off with paranormal romance.

The things is I wonder who the censor is. I wonder where the bar is set.
If the main characters, don't do anything at all- okay Urban Fantasy. But what if they do a little bit? How much is too much? Probably the best known case in point: Laurell K. Hamilton's Anita Blake. In the first book , Anita doesn't have any sex at all. In the last few books Anita has been having orgies. A few books ago, she even had sex with a sixteen year old during an orgy. YUCK!!! I keep hanging on to this series but I've read a lot of people dropping this series because they feel it's gone beyond paranormal romance and down into paranormal porn.
Go to three different bookstores and look for Laurell K. Hamilton. Chances are, you'll find her in three different places. I've seen her books in the horror section. I've seen them in the fantasy section. I've seen them grouped with other paranormal romance authors in a display.
Is there someone out there counting the number of licks and tickles it takes before a book crosses from urban fantasy to paranormal romance?

I still don't get it. The wiki article doesn't say anything about sex. It appears to me both descriptions fit the same books.

Terry,

I personally call it all Paranormal or PNR. What I took from the wiki article is that UF is a sub cat of PNR, but who knows.

I usually go with the idea that with PNR you have a *book* focused solely on the happily ever after of two individuals - so even with a series you get an HEA with each book of the series.
With UF you don't have that, even if there may be a HEA at the end of the series - each book in the series isn't dedicated to having an HEA.

So PNR = HEA.
UF is a book or series of books that have paranormal/fantasy elements as the setting.

Yeah I see it as:

PNR--Romance with a little adventure
UF--Adventure with a little romance(or none at all)

It sounds pretty silly to me to put labels on things that have no definition - or definitions that overlap all over the place. Who decides whether there is more adventure or more romance if the romance is happening while they are having the adventure?

Where does the word urban come into it? I originally figured it meant modern times city oriented stories with a fantasy twist. That would at least make sense. Urban: "relating to or concerned with a city or densely populated area; "urban sociology"; "urban development"

Yeah I can understand the term paranormal romance. But can't quite explain the "urban" part of urban fantasy. What is that? Something different from "sub"urban fantasy or country-life fantasy?

I don't know if I'm correct, but I think urban in urban fantasy refers to it being contemporary. As opposed to historical fantasy or futuristic.

You're right. There is no formula, and yes I think the definition is supposed to include an urban, modern day setting, which most of the series do...

For me though, it's important to have a label of UF or PNR so I won't waste my time or money on something I'm not sure I'll like. I pretty much despise PNR. The predictablity and mushy, dramatic quality of the romance turns me OFF! So when someone labels it PNR, I steer clear. At any rate, its the collective definition that is important and most of the definitions people have sited on this forum seem accurate enough to me.

I thought the urban referred to it being set in an urban setting...ie chicagoland vampires...chicago in a fantasy relm...kate daniels - atlanta...etc...

personally, I tend to view UF as a single couple focused through several books, not necessarily a HEA at the end of book...PNR different couples with a HEA...can be set anywhere

UF doesn't necessarily always follow a couple though - not throughout the books. They do tend to focus on one character's journey. I haven't read all of Dresden Files, but that doesn't seem to be about a couple. Rachel Morgan is another series that comes to mind - of course, I stopped reading those after what happened with Kisten. It's just that in some of them there happens to be a relationship - Kate Daniels series is all about Kate's journey, but she has Curran.

Just curious. What are these? Some are not done so we can't tell if they live happily ever after.
Outlander series - Gabaldon
Mortal Instruments series - Clare
Women of the Underworld - Armstrong
Sevenwaters series - Marillier
Twilight - Meyers
Wolves of Mercy Falls - Stiefvater

The key word for Paranormal Romance is Romance. It is a romance novel with paranormal elements, and since its a romance, there needs to be a happily ever after for the main hero and heroine at the end of the novel, or it will not be considered a romance.

Urban Fantasy follows the adventures of a main protagonist, usually narrated from a first person point of view, set in an urban or city setting, and with plenty of paranormal elements. It can have romance (ex. Frost's Night Huntress series) but not always.

That is how I separate the two genres.

Terry (Ter05 TwiMoms/ MundieMoms) wrote: "Just curious. What are these? Some are not done so we can't tell if they live happily ever after.
Outlander series - Gabaldon
Mortal Instruments series - Clare
Women of the Underworld - Armstrong..."

I haven't read the Sevenwaters series, but I have the rest and these are my opinions

Outlander--Really just Romance
Mortal Intruments--YA Urban Fantasy
Women of the Underworld-- (Hardest One) Some books are more PNR and some are more UF. Almost the perfect hybrid...but I'd still say PNR.
Twilight--YA PNR
Wolves of Mercy Falls--YA PNR

I would have agreed with Yz the Whyz's (that was hard to type) description of Urban fantasy as seems logical to me. I am not sure a romance has to have a happily ever after ending, because if it doesn't then what category does it fit into? I suspect and certainly don't know, that Jamie and Claire will eventually die. But it is the greatest romance I have ever read if they grow old and die together - or even if one goes on alone for a period of time. But then again I suppose that is "ever after". And in a long series when we don't know the ending, what category does it go into in the meantime? Interesting discussion.

The Sevenwaters series are awesome. My favorite author who I discovered this summer and subsequently bought every book she has written.

So with your new-found knowledge what would you classify the Sevenwaters series?

Terry (Ter05 TwiMoms/ MundieMoms) wrote:I am not sure a romance has to have a happily ever after ending, because if it doesn't then what category does it fit into? I suspect and certainly don't know, that Jamie and Claire will eventually die. But it is the greatest romance I have ever read if they grow old and die together - or even if one goes on alone for a period of time. But then again I suppose that is "ever after". And in a long series when we don't know the ending, what category does it go into in the meantime? Interesting discussion. ."

The romance genre is defined by the happy ending between the main couple at the end of the book, not at the end of a series. Some romance purists have argued that Gabaldon's Outlander books are historical/time travel fiction with strong romance elements. Now that does not in any way lessen the romance between the characters. I'm not taking sides, I'm just sharing what had been postulated.

For it to be Paranormal Romance, the HEA has to be at the end of each book, not at the end of the series. Series like Frost's Night Huntress series, Moning's Fever series for example are sometimes called Romantic Urban Fantasy because it has a strong romance element, but it is not PNR.

I hope I'm coming across clear. : )

Kylie wrote: "So with your new-found knowledge what would you classify the Sevenwaters series?"

I have only read the first one of the Sevenwaters series, and IMHO they're neither PNR nor Urban Fantasy. They're plain, simple YA fantasy with strong elements of romance. Just like Beauty or East or any of those fairytale-like stories; I find it difficult to classify a fairytale as PNR.

What I've also gathered so far, is that PNR focuses on the romance mainly, while UF on the adventure and world building. That's why many people accuse J.R. Ward for turning the BDB series slowly to UF from PNR. And that shows that you can't always classify an entire series as UF or PNR: some books in the series may belong in one genre and some in the other.

Sevenwaters is historical fantasy (mostly fantasy, LOL) with strong romance. Not YA, Fani. ;P LOL. Some inappropriate material. She has a YA series though, her Wildwood books.

You would know better nu! I've only read the first one though I have the second in my TBR and you've told me it's even better:)

Kylie wrote: "So with your new-found knowledge what would you classify the Sevenwaters series?"

Definitely PNR They can't be urban since they are in the 4th or 5th century and the romance in each book ends happily. I would not consider them YA. There is a pretty graphic rape scene in the first book like I have never read in a YA novel. They aren't grapic for the most part otherwise but just don't read like a YA novel.

And I agree the second Sevenwaters book is the best of all (Son of the Shadows). I liked her Bridei Chronicles even better than Sevenwaters altho loved them both.

Fani wrote: "You would know better nu! I've only read the first one though I have the second in my TBR and you've told me it's even better:)"

Yeah, it's great! Hope you like it. :D

My publisher lists my book as PR, though I think it's more UF.

In my opinion, UF is focused more on the adventure, and PR focuses more on the romance aspect. Regardless of the sexual content.

The urban comes in because it was originally a subgenre of fantasy before it was tied with PR. I "blame" Laurell Hamilton for the blurring the lines. But urban fantasy was stories that took place in the city or modern setting yet had strong magical/mythological elements. Mercedes Lackey has a series of elf drag racers.

Just some of my cents on the matter.

Since everyone seems to have their own general description, I wonder who and why the designations were ever invented. I have always just said something is romance with fantasy or an adventure with fantasy when telling someone about a book. If there is a boy/girl or man/woman attraction element in the book it is a romance to me. My son is reading The Legend of Drizzi series by Salvatore, and I asked him, "Is there any romance?" He said no.

I just separated my paranormal bookshelf into paranormal and urban fantasy. I had a hard time at first, but then I got my method down. And that method is that if the cover has naked people groping at each other, it's paranormal, and if it's got somebody holding a giant sword/staff/gun or just a generally menacing look, it's urban fantasy. Some are in between, and then I go by the ever-accurate "feeling."

That means I don't have any paranormal books at all and only a few urban fantasy ones. Wonder what I have here? LOL

I did you the favor of looking through your books. You are all urban fantasy except for the one very titillating cover involving two hands holding a very red apple. Works every time. Hope that helps.

I thought urban fantasy was modern times. The fifth century works for that too? Shiver and Linger are not the same category as that red apple one? I stay sooo confused....:-)

Shiver and Linger don't have telltale covers, no naked people or weapons, you see. That falls under "go by feeling."

I think the only books set in the 5th century with supernatural thingies I've come across have been categorized as horror. But then things just get more confusing...

The Sevenwaters series, Bridei Chronicles by Juliet Marillier have the fey which I consider supernatural. It's all confusing so I just won't put a label on anything. Not that the labeling is not interesting. I don't read horror. I am a coward.

What about stuff that is another world entirely? Like Poison Study and Graceling?

I think stuff that is set in other worlds is fantasy

Yeah, that's fantasy. :) The genre's usually mentioned somewhere on the author's website too, when she's describing her books, etc.

All paranormal romance is Urban Fantasy but not all Urban Fantasy is Paranormal Romance.

Fluttrbs wrote: "Would Christine Feehan's Carpathain be UF rather than PRN?"

I don't think so. The settings in the series range from the mountains to "big cities". I think they'd be considered PRN as the characters are able to shape shift, many have magic, etc.

I've heard several things about the difference between PR and UF.

First off: you can find PR in the Romance section; while UF is in Horror or Fantasy.

Second: If it ends with the girl getting the guy, it's PR.

Third: UF is *usually* but not always "Paranormal Mystery". In other words, it follows the same basic plot style as a Mystery novel, but with Vampires and Werewolves.

Usually you can tell by the amount of attention that there is to romance, versus action or mystery. For instance:
is UF. Because although there is some romance, it doesn't have a romantic ending. It's focus is on the mystery of "Who is killing Vampires?" It's very much action based.
The later books in the series are neither UF or PR...it's simply Paranormal Erotica.

I've also read although not all the way. It is more PR. There is a definite air of mystery, but the focus is on the romance.

Also, UF *can* be held in another world. But it has to be an Urban, or modern type setting. Otherwise it's not "Urban" Fantasy, now is it?

It's all really confusing and there are overlaps because publishers and booksellers will classify their sections differently than others and bookstores will put the book on whatever shelf they want, as long as that shelf hasn't been bought by the publisher (yes, publishers pay for shelf-space). A bookseller put my book in YA once when it's definitely NOT YA. My publisher fixed it before any parents got mad at the store, the publisher and me. lol

UF is a sub-genre of Fantasy and usually means it's in an urban setting in our modern world - NYC, for example. Contemporary Fantasy has become a newer sub-genre because what many considered as UF didn't take place in the city setting.

PNR is a sub-genre of both Fantasy and Romance because it blends the two. And it's actually more a blend of UF or Contemp Fantasy and Romance, not high fantasy.

The major difference is that PNR focuses on the romantic relationship while UF or Contemp Fantasy may not have a romantic relationship at all. And it doesn't matter how much actual sex there is - there are PNR and UF sub-genres in the YA genre.

Fun, huh? Unless you just aren't into romance at all, I'd say if you like one, you like the other and there are many books that can fall into either.

Courtney wrote: "I've heard several things about the difference between PR and UF.

First off: you can find PR in the Romance section; while UF is in Horror or Fantasy.

Second: If it ends with the girl getting the..."

I second this response. I've read up on the differences between UF and PNR and the consensus from the agent and author blogs and websites I’ve visited was that Urban Fantasy does not have to have an HEA like romance. While romance might be a large component of it, the ending doesn't have to end happily for the couple. It also has to take place in an urban setting. So a rural farm wouldn't cut it. But it does have the same character elements of PNR such as vampires, zombies, etc.

Just my two cents from the research I've done.

Ashley wrote: "It also has to take place in an urban setting. So a rural farm wouldn't cut it."

I don't know if I agree with this. The setting itself doesn't have to be Urban. For instance, the Southern Vampire/Sookie Stackhouse series is set in rural Louisiana. I'd actually put this in UF, because although love is a big part of the books, the mysteries involved are often bigger.

I think as long as the setting is on Earth, or someplace similar, than it can be considered Urban Fantasy. As opposed to something like Middle Earth.

Courtney wrote: "Ashley wrote: "It also has to take place in an urban setting. So a rural farm wouldn't cut it."

I don't know if I agree with this. The setting itself doesn't have to be Urban. For instance, the So..."

The rural/urban part actually confuses me a bit. I agree that the Sookie Stackhouse novels are urban fantasy. And a portion of them do take place in a city, Shreveport. But yes, most of it takes place in a small town.
I have read on many author and agent blogs that Urban Fantasy does have to take place in a city. When I was querying my urban fantasy, I made sure the agent knew it took place in London because of this feedback from blogs. So that point still causes a bit of confusion for me since Sookie’s novels are UF. Okay, I'll stop rambling. Just wanted to make a point that that aspect of UF is a bit muddled. All the other UF I’ve read has taken place in cities.

I agree with much that is posted here, but I think we could add:

1) what audience segment the marketers think the book should appeal to, (yeah, I know, cop out answer, but it does explain the shelving arrangements,) and

2) whether romance is the primary storyline or secondary. In PRN, the romance should be the primary storyline, with subplots thrown in to complicate the romance. In UF, a different storyline (adventure, quest, coming-of-age, etc.) is the main storyline, and the romance is a subplot or complicating storyline.

JM2c,
TK Kenyon

Kristie wrote: "The major difference is that PNR focuses on the romantic relationship while UF or Contemp Fantasy may not have a romantic relationship at all. And it doesn't matter how much actual sex there is - there are PNR and UF sub-genres in the YA genre."

I have to agree with this here. There is so much overlapping in the genre's and sub genres. The bottom line is the over all focus of the story. If the romance is the larger point, then it falls under PNR, if the adventure (or whatever) is the major point, then it falls under UF/CF.

Now, as to the distinctions made between UF/CF I'm totally lost. I they both sound the same to me. Contemporary = modern Urban = modern (perhaps with the action taking place in a major metro area.)