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The Transgender Question
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I cannot speak for the community, but I have no problems I know of with this group. But, I have never known a transgendered person and guess I feel we wouldn't have much in common unless they also happened to be Gay, other than being a minority with the resulting bigotry.
But, I speak in ignorance without any personal experience. I am very involved in civil rights for all except those who want to limit civil rights. So turning the question right and other than civil rights issues, why would a transgendered individual be involved with the Gay community unless they were also Gay?
Saying that, I would avidly support their rights to self-actualize. Would I personally date a female->male transgendered person. I think so, if they looked, acted and thought like a person I'm interested in dating. Have sex? I suppose so, as long as they had a penis, are phenotypically male. I want to get as much as give. If they had a vagina, no. My psychobiology would not allow my body to work. I've never asked for a chromosome analysis from anyone I have been involved with.
You ask some questions. My personal answers:
Do you think of a transgendered man who considers himself gay as REALLY being gay?
Yes. Who am I to question their sexual orientation.
Do you think of a transgendered woman who loves men as being a gay male who betrayed himself?
No. I would consider them a woman.
Do you wrongly believe transgenders are the same as intersexed people, androgynes or hermaphrodites?
Not al all.
But you need to define androgyne vs hermaphrodite and probably include chimerism. Do you comsider Trisomy X (Turner's syndrome) or XXY (Kleinfelter's syndrome) or XYY or other aneuploides of the sex chromosomes to be intersexed individuals? When are these disorders, when variations?
Do you believe it is correct for intersexed persons, hermaphrodites and others to generally be included under the "transgendered" label when they are NOT transgendered? (i.e. GLBT or LGBT vs. GLBTIIQ)
No. But the letter proliferation is confusing.
What of our transgendered young people transitioning today? Will these biases and dismissive attitudes still be directed towards them?
In the US likely. There is a distinct lack of education about such a subject. I consider education the sine qua non for acceptance.
Do you agree with the differentation between transgendered men/women vs. just using men/women?
I'm not sure. But to me phenotype (even a medically created phenotype) and behavior are more important than karyotype or genotype.
I am a bit confused about whether your article is primarily about transgender or intersex individuals. I would think their social problems, besides those of general acceptance, would be rather different.
So turning the question right and other than civil rights issues, why would a transgendered individual be involved with the Gay community unless they were also Gay? Because some transgendered persons are still gay, and that is stated in the article. Just a general example, of one transgendered activist: He was born female, and as a female was a lesbian, but never felt correct in gender. When he transitioned, he finally felt to be his real self, and no longer felt any attraction to women but is gay and feels comfortable dating other men.
So in effect, you were assuming and/or what their sexual preference is after transitioning. One of the points my article makes. When people wrongly judge someone or make assumptions, that is when the biases start.
I appreciate your honest response but at the same time, I would consider from your response you are exactly the type of person transgenders and others struggle with so greatly. Many trans or inters can see obviously if a person is a trans or homophobe, but when someone who you'd think would be more open-minded has already decided "No, No, and not possible", you've already closed your mind against a large percentage of people you don't know any details about, but are making assumptions.
From my article: "Wherever I am, I never have a problem getting a date if I want, or going out. I do feel more comfortable among persons who share my lifestyle, interest or thoughts I might wish to express, so naturally that once took me to a gay group meetings or "meet N greets". No problem. Friendliness ,invitations of all kinds. But if I state I am intersexed? Total dead end. Doubt is suddenly in the glance as if they know what I am or have or don't have. Assumptions, of course!
I might continue to receive clandestine sexual offers but little else. The superficiality is telling. An advert says, or a person claims, "I am looking for someone honest, true, loving, intelligent, someone I also find attractive so we can enjoy a life together"...and you meet and it's great, and then they find out you are also intersexed. Total dead end. Done. No interest. On occasion, disgust or aggression.
That happens when I am in the US, which is why I don't date in the US. I think that speaks a lot about the country itself and the gay communities. Yours are the expressions that many American gay men make. And it seems to very much go back to appearance. And continues the complaints of "can't find the right one". It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
But you need to define androgyne vs hermaphrodite and probably include chimerism. Do you comsider Trisomy X (Turner's syndrome) or XXY (Kleinfelter's syndrome) or XYY or other aneuploides of the sex chromosomes to be intersexed individuals? When are these disorders, when variations?
No, I don't. And I clearly included androgyne, hermaphrodites and Other conditions, medical, disorders etc., without giving a list. You found the letter prolieration confusing, yet you want to inject more terms many people don't know the meanings of? And yes I know the terms intimately as I am in graduate school of Psychology further specializing in gender studies.
The point is, irregardless of details many people place all of these into one category and misjudge the whole.
The article was about transgendered and intergendered, there is no primary. Both topics were addressed.
Is there a difference in how trans and intergendered individuals are viewed and/or accepted by the gay community compared to others?Based on my experiences with transgendered individuals I have known, I would say the gay community is generally more tolerant. Still, transgendered and bisexual people are considered to be on the periphery, I think.
I have known several transgendered people from various jobs I've worked at and including my own primary physician, who was also my doctor when he was a male.
One of my co-workers experienced harassment and discrimination because even though she self-identified as female, she had not gone through the complete transition yet. The company I worked for at the time had to build a private restroom because she was not welcome in either the mens' or women's bathrooms.
Such intolerance could be lessened with education and awareness, as Kernos mentioned. I think it will be some time yet before our society stops being so black and white and accepts there are "gray areas".
Mod
No, I don't. And I clearly included androgyne, hermaphrodites and Other conditions, medical, disorders etc., without giving a list."
I think you do. The terms androgynous and hermaphroditic are synonymous in the US medical literature, though 'hermaphrodite' is preferred. Androgyne does not appear in most standard US dictionaries. Even the OED defines androgyne as "A being uniting the physical characters of both sexes; a hermaphrodite." The broader definition which I think you are using is common in Europe. If you want us to understand or want to educate, we need to know what you and the involved individual mean.
Red wrote: "So turning the question right and other than civil rights issues, why would a transgendered individual be involved with the Gay community unless they were also Gay?
Because some transgendered persons are still gay, and that is stated in the article"
And I said "unless they are also gay". Do transgendered people who are not gay, want to be involved in the Gay or straight communities?
So in effect, you were assuming and/or what their sexual preference is after transitioning. One of the points my article makes. When people wrongly judge someone or make assumptions, that is when the biases start.
No I'm not. I think you misread me or or expressing your bias that since I'm a US Gay male, I cannot possibly understand. All I said is that mu affectional interest is in phenotypic males and that I do not care about there karyotype. How it that phobic or biased.
I also thought I indicated that I am open to be educated. How could I have made up my mind if I have no experience with transgendered individuals, except from a medical POV.
That happens when I am in the US, which is why I don't date in the US. I think that speaks a lot about the country itself and the gay communities. Yours are the expressions that many American gay men make. And it seems to very much go back to appearance. And continues the complaints of "can't find the right one". It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Expand on this please. I don't understand what you are getting at. I am wondering if the problem is more your ability to communicate with Americans, than a US cultural problem. You drop the word 'intersex' and most Gays are not going to know what you mean.
You found the letter prolieration confusing, yet you want to inject more terms many people don't know the meanings of?
I was asking a question which you did not answer. Are the aneuploid disorders included under the term 'intersex'?
Nancy wrote: "Such intolerance could be lessened with education and awareness, as Kernos mentioned. I think it will be some time yet before our society stops being so black and white and accepts there are "gray areas". "I very much agree with you, Nancy. However Kernos exactly said it is likely the biases will continue. I don't disagree with that at all either, but I think more than simple education is necessary which is evidenced in this discussion.
You completely missed the point, Kernos. So, no, I do not. My article is not a dissertation piece which is supposed to be explanatory on all intergendered or intersexed topics. It is not a medical document. My purpose is not to educate anyone nor to "make" anyone understand. I have provided some different sides and further insights into an issue, but it is up to a reader on what they choose to make of that information.Understanding is an entirely individual thing, and no matter what anyone says, in what manner, and to what degree...some people, as you did, will try to say whatever is already being said needs furthering refineing/defining, going to further detail, etc. etc.
The point of the article is to include the varieties of intergendered or intersexed persons in a basic way, not give a listing of all known conditions or physical realities. Another point is consider the range of individuals in various transformation and not judge them, or limit one's mind regarding them.
"Do transgendered people who are not gay, want to be involved in the Gay or straight communities? "
I would not presume to say what transgendered people want or do not want besides the basic respect and dignity any other person is given. Nor would I attempt to speak or answer for anyone else in that capacity.
"I think you misread me or or expressing your bias that since I'm a US Gay male, I cannot possibly understand. All I said is that mu affectional interest is in phenotypic males and that I do not care about there karyotype. How it that phobic or biased."
I did not say it was phobic or biased. Nor did I say you could not understand because you are US and a gay male. That would be presumptive and making assumptions which I would not do. Perhaps you placed a greater inflection in my comment than what was intended.
"I don't understand what you are getting at. I am wondering if the problem is more your ability to communicate with Americans, than a US cultural problem."
That is entirely an assumption, simple conjecture, since you do not know me nor my background. I again find it curious when you choose to make assumptions and apply them wholesale with no basis of knowledge regarding the individual.
"I was asking a question which you did not answer. Are the aneuploid disorders included under the term 'intersex'?"
I am not a doctor, Kernos. And you're asking me questions as if I'm obligated to respond to you. I might respond, for example, if my son asked me because I am his parent, but I would expect anyone else to search for their own answers. This also goes back to above, when you seem to expect me to define terms for you. The information is readily available anywhere online or in numerous textbooks.
Mod
There is a difference, in and out of the community. I pass very well as a gay male. As soon ad I come out as trans I am treated much differently by gay men and straight people. I have a very large problem getting dates with gay men because if my trans status, which the men have been quick to point out as the reason they can't date me. I figure this difference in treatment is similar to what bisexuals and asexuals face. Often groups are left behind, said not to exist, or treated vastly different despite not being all that different. Though the difference in treatment often seems to be because they don't know trans people or they feel gender is biologically determined.
Isaiah, thanks for your posting, the above article has been updated http://redhaircrow.com/2012/04/05/the... as QMO has revamped things, I didn't repost there, only on my own website instead.I believe firmly that labeling definitely can lead to discrimination, and there is a good deal that exists especially from gay men towards transmen (as they self-define) or intersexuals. They think of you as different. It's like they don't want you in their exclusive group of "real" REAL gay men, as if you are less.
To me, its basically such gay men who are imposing the same discrimination on others that they've received. I can certainly understand if they are not attracted, which of course happens, but if they deliberately, pointedly dismiss you because you are trans? Sometimes they are applying the idea: "You're just a woman trying to be a man." It seems a kind of insecurity to me, or either a power play in some cases. They want to use what power they have, the memories of being excluded because of their sexuality, to exclude someone else because of their judgement on gender.
@Kernos, sorry but you obviously missed my attempt to be diplomatic a long time ago. I wasn't interested in trying to define anything for you, especially from my own viewpoint because on so many occasions you state your opinion as if it is fact, and everyone else is obviously wrong. I grew tired of it long ago, and its not something I voluntarily choose to be a part of with anyone at anytime, but especially not online.
It begins: "A question posed at GLBT website was deeply thought-provoking (or should have been) to readers, yet the comments from others more fully told the tale: "Why is there a double standard?....."
An article I wrote posted at Queer Magazine Online. http://www.queermagazineonline.com/
The lovely and handsome model turned actor Lee Williams is the cover photo.