The Sword and Laser discussion

While most S&L'ers are long time fans of SF&F, I think some members may be newer to the genres. Also some, like me, may not be as well read as the more prolific readers in the group. I thought in this thread we could list books that are definitive works in their particular genre and also explore the many sub genres that exist in the world of SF&F. I'll start with Dune for SF and The Hobbit for Fantasy. And I'll throw in Red Planet for SF YA.

Asimov's Foundation for SF, The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever, starting with Lord Foul's Bane, for Fantasy, and of course, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone for YA.

Subgenres (of which I'd like to hear what people say are the definitive books): Steampunk, Cyberpunk, Space Opera, and (some) Alternative History.

But what genre does stories like Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark fall into? I define something as fantasy in which there is either a dose of magic, supernatural, or the impossible. And SF is one in which technological things happen that either cannot happen yet (as in modern and future sci fi), or could not have happened in the time in which they are set (such as Steampunk).

But impossible things happen in Indiana Jones, such as the Ark scene at the end, which is why I lean toward fantasy. Or is this considered Fantastic Fiction or Adventure Fantasy? However, there are other stories such as King Kong which though technically could be considered SF, since nothing impossible or magical happens, but is probably more traditionally considered Adventure.

Also, does anyone think genres like Magical Realsim and Horror belong in SF&F. Or I guess, speculative fiction as a whole, which I assume SF&F are two of the many genres within speculative fiction.

Bill wrote: "But what genre does stories like Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark fall into? I define something as fantasy in which there is either a dose of magic, supernatural, or the impossible. And SF is one in which technological things happen that either cannot happen yet (as in modern and future sci fi), or could not have happened in the time in which they are set (such as Steampunk)..."

Indy is definitely fantasy -- I mean, Mola Ram was able to remove a beating heart from someone's chest wihout killing them, or even cutting them open and breaking their ribs.

It's part of the Mighty Whitey subgenre, where noble white men travel the globe and solve the problems of poor, benighted natives who can't do anything through their own agency. The defining work of this subgenre is King Solomon's Mines.

Seran wrote: It's part of the Mighty Whitey subgenre, where noble white men travel the globe and solve the problems of poor, benighted natives who can't do anything through their own agency.

E.G. Avatar, right? :)

I was going to mention King Solomon's Mines, but I wasn't familiar enough with the story to know if anything magical, supernatural, or impossible happened in it.

BTW, looking into these type of stories got me interested in reading some in the Lost World genre. So I started a list (and downloaded a few of the free ones) with such titles such as The Man Who Would Be King and Other Stories, The Lost World, The Land That Time Forgot and At the Mountains of Madness: The Definitive Edition.

I would add

Fantasy - Lord Valentine's Castle, Elric of Melniboné

Books based on fantasy RP games - Dragonlance Chronicles: Dragons of Autumn Twilight/Dragons of Winter Night/Dragons of Spring Dawning

Starship Troopers seems to define military sf.

I know it's cooler to be more obscure, but I think you can't get more defining than The Lord of the Rings books. Pretty much everyone's idea of Elfs, Orcs and Dwarfs come from Tolkien's vision.

I haven't read nearly as much Sci-Fi as I have Fantasy (though I seem to only read SF these days) but I would say The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Again, it's a bit obvious, but I think any book that's so well known, even to people who have never read it, deserves to be mentioned here.

On a more personal scale, the defining books of the genres for me would be Hogfather for fantasy, and Predator's Gold for SF.

Fantasy:
The Lord of the Rings
The Elfstones of Shannara

Young Adult:
Harry Potter
Percy Jackson and the Olympians

SciFi:
War of Worlds by H.G. Wells

Horror:
Phantoms by Dean Koontz

Darth wrote: "Horror:
Phantoms by Dean Koontz"

That seems a bit too recent to be genre defining. Walpole's The Castle of Otranto pretty much invented the genre, though the most influential to modern writers are Frankenstein, Dracula and Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde. For modern horror, H.P. Lovecraft and Richard Matheson are the major figures, though William Peter Blatty's The Exorcist and Ira Levin's Rosemary's Baby are the books that made the genre mainstream. Then you have James Herbert's The Rats and Ramsey Campbell's The Doll Who Ate His Mother as the defining works of splatterpunk.

However, Ben Affleck was the bomb in Phantoms.

Sean wrote: "However, Ben Affleck was the bomb in Phantoms. "

< high five >

Lovecraft is genious, IMO. Nothing in horror compares to him. I think that he was unusually senstive and almost mad, which allowed his mind to create visions, which can not be repeated by other author. That's why I didn't say that he is defining - he is unique, IMO. I'm a huge fan of his works. A fanboy, actually :D
My favorite Lovecraft stories are, for me, "A shadow over Innsmouth" and "The Whisperer in the Darkness". Chilling. Brilliant.

I have to agree with Darth. Elfstones is a great one.

Sean wrote: "...Indy is definitely fantasy...

It's part of the Mighty Whitey subgenre, where noble white men travel the globe and solve the problems of poor, benighted natives who can't do anything through their own agency...."

Sean,

Have you actually ever read an Indiana Jones book, or seen one of the movies?

It's more about stealing native treasures and escaping as quickly as you can before the (justifiably) upset inhabitants wring your neck.

Great Adventure stories though :)


For defining the Genera books:

Space Opera - E.E. "Doc" Smith Lensman books
Future History - Issac Asimov's Foundation Series
Hard Science SciFi - Larry Niven's Ringworld
Horror - Bram Stoker's Dracula, Mary Shelly's Frankenstien
Sci-Fi Humor - Douglas Adams The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
Time Travel - H.G. Well's The Time Machine

Stan wrote: "Sean,

Have you actually ever read an Indiana Jones book, or seen one of the movies?
..."

Yes. And to be fair, I'm mainly thinking of Temple of Doom, which is one of the most horribly racist movies of the last thirty years. I can't believe Spielberg would make a movie about how Indians can't take care of themselves and need a white man to save them. The movie is a wholesale rip-off of the 1939 Gunga Din, but at least Gunga Din was heroic and helped the white guys defeat the Thuggees (and the film never claimed that Thuggee was part of the Hindu religion).

Cyberpunk: Hands down William Gibson's Neuromancer; also Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson is very good.

Matthew wrote: "Cyberpunk: Hands down William Gibson's Neuromancer; also Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson is very good."

Well, Neuromancer is the Granddaddy of cyberpunk, but Snow Crash was way better. I read Neuromancer way back when, and reread it just last year. It isn't great. That being said, I guess it does define the genre, though.

Young Adult:
Harry Potter
Percy Jackson and the Olympians

I'd have to go with the His Dark Materials trilogy ahead of either Harry Potter or the Percy Jacksons. While those have more commercial appeal, Philip Pullman is a considerably better writer.

Tom wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Cyberpunk: Hands down William Gibson's Neuromancer; also Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson is very good."

Well, Neuromancer is the Granddaddy of cyberpunk, but ..."

Alfred Bester - The Star's My Destination is the grandaddy of Cyberpunk and sadly doesn't get much credit. It was written in the 50's and still reads like it is quite fresh (in some ways it feels even fresher than Gibson's Neuromancer).

Tom wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Cyberpunk: Hands down William Gibson's Neuromancer; also Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson is very good."

Well, Neuromancer is the Granddaddy of cyberpunk, but ..."

I'm afraid that I have to disagree. Pullman wrote HDM to be anti-Narnia and anti-religious. So hos work were focused on a prime agenda and this agenda WAS NOT on telling a god, enjoyable story. IMO the third book is atrocious - an endless rant about how bad religion is.
In no way he is better author than Riordan, who carefully crafts old myths into a modern, enjoyable adventure and can be read on two levels - as pure fun or as great mythological adaptation. Not to mention Rowling who has created and immensely addictive fictinal universe, which is very alive, touches numerous problems which are still valid in modern day society and remains a great fantastical journey with a true "hero and symbol".
Just my opinion, of course.

Darth wrote: "Lovecraft is genious, IMO. Nothing in horror compares to him. I think that he was unusually senstive and almost mad, which allowed his mind to create visions, which can not be repeated by other aut..."

I really enjoy the H.P. Lovecraft Literary Podcast as a sort of audio annotation to the stories. They're reviewing each story in chronological order of publication and will be covering "The Dunwich Horror" as their first episode of 2011.

Stan wrote: "For defining the Genera books:

Space Opera - E.E. "Doc" Smith Lensman books
Future History - Issac Asimov's Foundation Series
Hard Science SciFi - Larry Niven's Ringworld
Horror - Bram Stoker's Dracula, Mary Shelly's Frankenstien
Sci-Fi Humor - Douglas Adams The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
Time Travel - H.G. Well's The Time Machine"

Wow, that looks pretty much like my list. For some other variants, I'd add:
Cyberpunk - William Gibson's Neuromancer
Steampunk - Jules Verne's 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea

Markt5660 wrote: "Darth wrote: "Lovecraft is genious, IMO. Nothing in horror compares to him. I think that he was unusually senstive and almost mad, which allowed his mind to create visions, which can not be repeate..."

I'm a fan of some group which makes retro-style movies about HPL. I enjoyed their version of the "Call of Cthulhu" and anticipate "The Whisperer in the Darkness".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_ee9K...

Brad wrote: "I have to agree with Darth. Elfstones is a great one."

I have read Elfstones so many times, that I lost count. Utterly amazing book, I have bought it in three different editions.

Darth wrote: "I'm a fan of some group which makes retro-style movies about HPL ..."
That's the same people. Chad Fifer and Chris Lackey (the podcast hosts) both starred in "Call of Cthulhu" and Andrew Leman (who produced and directed "Call") appears pretty regularly on the podcast; both as guest host and "reader" of select passages.

Stan wrote: Hard Science SciFi - Larry Niven's Ringworld

Hmmm... Hard SF that's almost forgotten these days is the Venus Equilateral series by George O. Smith. Written in the early 40s, it wonderfully extrapolates the technology of the day. Vacuum tubes in space are a no brainer--put them outside. Communications satellites at the L5 point between Earth and Mars. Dated, but marvelous.