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"You are going to Hell"
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Emma (Snowy thoughts) wrote: "Who said anything about a trip? God is omnipresent. He is everywhere. All it takes for me is to look outside during a sunset or a rainstorm to "see God". You don't need a Bible to tell you about Go..."Again I say, it's not about the religion. It's about knowing there is a God and putting your trust in Him. You don't have to know the specifics to believe in God.
And are these actual people that you know personally? Because if not, it's purely hypothetical. And if we're speaking hypothetically, God can send a missionary.
Or They might find an American penny somewhere and see the words "In God we trust" and become curious about God.
They might have some life altering experience where they slip on mud and nearly plummet to their death over a cliff and realize that something supernatural saved them.
God can work any way he chooses. You can't base beliefs off of hypothetical situations, because things are rarely the way we think they would/should be. And people have many many different experiences.
Personally I would not need the Bible to tell me that God is real. I have had many things happen in my life that have shown me He is. Not that I'm discrediting the Bible.
Believing God is real does not take huge amounts of time. Just faith.
"Will they be judged for not believing?"
God judges according to what someone has done with what God gave them. "To whom much is given, much shall be required"
God's not going to quiz you on all the details when you get to heaven, but he does expect your faith and devotion.
He gave everyone a conscience. He gives everyone an opportunity to learn about God if they choose to. But sometimes it's hard. Sometimes it takes effort. Sometimes it takes leaving everything you've ever known and searching for God whom you've never heard of. Sometimes it takes going against what your logic is telling you.
Yes, they will still be judged for not believing.
And don't forget, Abraham didn't have a Bible. Christianity wasn't around then.
But he had such great faith that God made him the father of nations. And he is most certainly in Heaven.
So yes, it is very possible to believe in God without knowing a thing about Christianity or having a Bible.
"No, that is not what I'm saying. I know people break them all the time, I do it myself. But continuelly breaking them, with no regret and no intentions of trying to stop doing it? Yeah, I'd say that would be a free-ticket to hell. Or are you telling me that Hitler will go to heaven?"
Well, where does it say if you break the commandments a little bit it's ok, but if you break them alot, you go to Hell?
It doesn't. That's your own logic.
They are Gods commands, not yours. And He sets the judgments for His commands.
God cast Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden for disobeying Him ONE time. It was sin and as a result they had to die. And it wasn't anything very horrible in our eyes, they only ate a fruit, they didn't murder anybody. But it was sin.
God doesn't have a scale of all our good and bad deeds so He can see which one outweighs the other at the end of our lives. He says "All have sinned", "there is none righteous, no not one", and "I am the way the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the father but by me".
It says nothing about how much sin is ok.
Breaking the commandments at all disqualifies us from Heaven.
No, I definitely did not say that Hitler was in Heaven. I said, if the basis for going to Heaven is keeping the commandments, no one would be there.
You however are implying that if someone is good enough, they will go to Heaven.
But good by whose standard?
By God's standard, none of us are "good".
Humanly speaking, goodness is subjective if you leave God's standard out of it.
If there's no absolute right and wrong, whatever I think is good, is.
Meaning, if someone goes out and kills a bunch of people, thinking they were doing a good thing (ie. Hitler and terrorists), by your arguments, they would go to Heaven, because to them, they're good people.
You can't take bits and pieces of God. You have to take all of Him or none of Him.
Revelation 3:16 - So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
"I'm basing it of on what I feel in my heart, and believe to be the truth."
In other words, on your own logic and not what God says.
Our own logic is flawed because we do not know everything. And Satan is working very hard to influence our logic. He wants us to doubt God. He's subtle and deceptive and he makes what's completely wrong seem completely right.
You cannot trust your own logic. Not where God is concerned.
"Oh you would be surprised
Trust me, so would you. "
This was not my comment.
Mod
And are these actual people that you know personally? Because if not, it's purely hypothetical. Of course it's hypothetical.
And if we're speaking hypothetically, God can send a missionary.
But he doesn't always send one. Plenty of people go trough their lives without knowing much about God, without any revelations or helping hands for them to know.
Sometimes it takes leaving everything you've ever known and searching for God whom you've never heard of.
So it takes simply wandering off into the wild to find something you know nothing about?
No, I definitely did not say that Hitler was in Heaven. I said, if the basis for going to Heaven is keeping the commandments, no one would be there.
And why, may I ask, wouldn't he go to heaven, if not for killing millions of people? He was a catholic, so it isn't that he didn't believe in God and Christ.
By God's standard, none of us are "good".
How do you know?
Meaning, if someone goes out and kills a bunch of people, thinking they were doing a good thing (ie. Hitler and terrorists), by your arguments, they would go to Heaven, because to them, they're good people.
Uhm no. That wasn't my argument at all. As I have also mentioned, we do not decide who is good or bad; God does. But I believe God is good, and therefore wouldn't dwell much on whether or not a person believes in his existence.
In other words, on your own logic and not what God says.
No, not in other words. In the words that I wrote. Why do people believe in God? Because they feel deep down that he exists, that he's a part of everything.
And Satan is working very hard to influence our logic.
Are you implying that my feelings are influenced by Satan?
This was not my comment.
I know.
So it takes simply wandering off into the wild to find something you know nothing aboutWhat did Columbus do?
How do you know?
Because the bible tells us
Are you implying that my feelings are influenced by Satan
Well in a way, Satan as a great influence on the world and how it thinks. With all the bad things that are happening you can clearly see where he has his territory
What did Columbus do?Columbus had a nice education in which he learned to navigate on the seas. Then he spoke with the rulers of portocal - was declined, and spoke with the rulers of Spain, got 3 very nice ships, a nice big crew, food and trades to support their travel and a destination he thought he knew.
Because the bible tells us
I don't remember anywhere in the Bible in which it explained Gods standards. I'm reading it for the somethingth time, so maybe I'll come across it.
Well in a way, Satan as a great influence on the world and how it thinks.
Well duh. Satan has his influence many places, but I highly doubt that he is placing these kinds of feelings. It won't make me stop believing in God. I just don't believe in everythin the Bible says, and I most defiantly do not take it literally.
Emma (Snowy thoughts) wrote: "But he doesn't always send one. Plenty of people go trough their lives without knowing much about God, without any revelations or helping hands for them to know. "How do you know? It's all hypothetical. Tell me about one person you personally know who has never had the opportunity to learn about God.
"So it takes simply wandering off into the wild to find something you know nothing about?"
In an extreme case, yes, it's quite possible.
Kind of like a child who is raised in an extremely abusive home who's never been allowed outside and knows nothing about the world.
The best possible thing they could do would be to escape and find a neighbor or a police officer. But they know nothing about anything outside of where they live. All they know is that their situation is bad and needs to be escaped.
It's in their best interest to go with their instincts and escape, but they might not do that. I would even say that they probably would not do that because they are scared. But if they don't, they have to live with the consequences.
"And why, may I ask, wouldn't he go to heaven, if not for killing millions of people? He was a catholic, so it isn't that he didn't believe in God and Christ."
I won't get into a debate about Hitler. But I've never seen anything to suggest that anything about him was remotely Christan. And it's not really even an issue, He did murder millions of people.
But that didn't just come out of nowhere - it was what he believed was right. It was in his heart long before he was able to put his ideas into practice.
And by the way, not everyone who says they are a Christian actually is one.
I mean I could say I'm a giraffe, but that doesn't make it true. I have to meet certain qualifications to be a giraffe.
"How do you know?"
There is none righteous, no not one. Romans 3:10
"Uhm no. That wasn't my argument at all. As I have also mentioned, we do not decide who is good or bad; God does. But I believe God is good, and therefore wouldn't dwell much on whether or not a person believes in his existence."
The words that stick out to me in that statement is "I believe".
You say that God decides who is good or bad, but you are using your own logic to determine who is good and who is bad, not what God says. Therefore, you are saying that you decide who is good and who is not.
And by the way, even Satan believes in God. He probably knows the Bible better than most Christians.
"Are you implying that my feelings are influenced by Satan?"
Yes, I am.
Satan's whole goal right now is to deceive as many people as possible so that they will not believe what God has said and therefore will not go to Heaven.
He doesn't want people to believe in Hell. He wants people to believe that God accepts everyone as they are. He wants people to think that there are a million and one ways to heaven. He doesn't even want people to believe he himself even exists.
Because if he gets people to truly believe things that are so very wrong, they will not even think to look for the truth. It makes his goal alot easier.
Satan knows that his time is limited, and he knows that he is doomed to spend eternity in Hell. He wants to take as many people with him as possible.
What do you think his purpose is, if not that? Just causing trouble for the fun of it?
The Bible calls him a "roaring lion", something to be on guard for. Something extremely dangerous.
Satan isn't like the cartoons portray him. He's not the ugly demonic looking 'man' with horns and a pitchfork. He was the most beautiful angel in Heaven before he allowed pride to consume him and God cast him out of Heaven.
He makes sin look attractive. He makes you want to do whatever it is. He even makes you think it's a good thing.
He's very very good at it. He's had thousands of years to perfect his tactics.
So yes, I am implying that Satan influences your feelings. He does it to us all(depression, anorexia, suicide - to use your same examples)
But some people are more prepared for such attacks.
Emma (Snowy thoughts) wrote:"Columbus had a nice education in which he learned to navigate on the seas. Then he spoke with the rulers of portocal - was declined, and spoke with the rulers of Spain, got 3..."And everyone told him, he was going to fall off the edge of the world. He went into the unknown.
"I don't remember anywhere in the Bible in which it explained Gods standards. I'm reading it for the somethingth time, so maybe I'll come across it."
Then you clearly aren't reading it very closely. The Bible is quite obvious as to what God's standards are.
"I just don't believe in everythin the Bible says, and I most defiantly do not take it literally."
This is Satan's whole goal. To make you doubt God.
This is Satan's whole goal. To make you doubt God. But, as I’ve already said, I am not doubting God. I am doubting the Bible, because I find it highly unlikely that it has survived, unchanged, trough so many years. As you said yourself: Humans sin. We also have free will. Nothing would prevent powerful people from corrupting the Bible, to make it follow their own purposes.
How do you know? It's all hypothetical. Tell me about one person you personally know who has never had the opportunity to learn about God.
We have a sponsor kid in Africa. The only reason she goes to school is because we give her the money to do so. She uses all of her time on getting water from the water-place, which is 3 kilometers from where she lives and helping her family out. The school she attends is very far away, and she can not always go to it, because of the distance. She is also the only person in her family who is attending school, her parents have not and her siblings do not.
I've never seen anything to suggest that anything about him was remotely Christan.
Adolf Hitler, 1933: "The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and co-operation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life.”
"The National Government regards the two Christian confessions (i.e. Catholicism and Protestantism) as factors essential to the soul of the German people. ... We hold the spiritual forces of Christianity to be indispensable elements in the moral uplift of most of the German people."
Mein kampf: ” "What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and the reproduction of our race...so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe...Peoples that bastardize themselves, or let themselves be bastardized, sin against the will of eternal Providence."”
Hitler was a member of the catholic church until his death in 1945.
And by the way, not everyone who says they are a Christian actually is one.
How do you determine if someone is not a Christian, if they claim to be? If they say they believe in God and Christ, why wouldn’t you believe them, no matter how awful they were as people?
You say that God decides who is good or bad, but you are using your own logic to determine who is good and who is bad, not what God says. Therefore, you are saying that you decide who is good and who is not.
No, I am not. If you read my last post, you will notice that I said that it is for God to decide who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell. But I do not believe in the Bible and what it says, as I sincerely doubt that humans could’ve kept their hands of such a powerful element for so long.
But some people are more prepared for such attacks.
I suppose you're speaking of yourself here.
Emma (Snowy thoughts) wrote: "But, as I’ve already said, I am not doubting God.I am doubting the Bible, "To doubt the Bible is to doubt God.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word WAS God.
God equates Himself with the Bible. He would not do that if it were imperfect.
Why would a perfect God want to be represented imperfectly?
"As you said yourself: Humans sin. We also have free will. Nothing would prevent powerful people from corrupting the Bible, to make it follow their own purposes."
Nothing but an all-powerful God.
Do you really think it is beyond God's power to preserve His word accurately and forever?
If you do, you are limiting God.
Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Isaiah 40:8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.
Psalm 119:89 For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven.
If you don't believe one thing in the Bible, why believe any of it at all? If one thing is wrong, God is a liar. Why should you trust Him if He is a liar? How do you even know He exists?
The Bible was not physically written by one person(or translated). It was written and translated by many people. People who do not share the same opinions. If it were truly just their ideas or their decisions of what is important, things would conflict. There would literally be thousands of contradictions. But there isn't one.
Not to mention all the prophecies it contains and the account of creation. Two very important things that could not have possibly come from anyone but from God directly.
That is impossible without divine intervention, yet it is all true with the Bible.
And what purposes exactly does the Bible supposedly support, if it has been changed by sinful men. I'm unaware of it containing any purpose but to understand God and His love. But I've only been studying it my entire life, maybe I've missed something.
"We have a sponsor kid in Africa. The only reason she goes to school is because we give her the money to do so. She uses all of her time on getting water from the water-place, which is 3 kilometers from where she lives and help..."
By the way, you've just given an example of how God can chose to work.
It sounds like she has contact with the outside world, yes? And her family have her to tell them.
I'm sorry, but I do not believe she or her family have never had the opportunity to hear about God before. And besides, her life is not over.
Just because someone is poor and lives in a third world country does not mean they have never or will never hear.
We have also sponsored a poor boy from Africa. He knows about God very well.
"Adolf Hitler, 1933: "The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity a..."
I still see nothing that suggests Christianity at all, quite the opposite in fact.
I don't care what someone calls himself. As I said, I could say I'm a giraffe, but it's not true.
"It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life."
If that were true, the holocaust would never have happened.
"The National Government regards the two Christian confessions (i.e. Catholicism and Protestantism)"
Sounds like they are making it about religion and not about God. Religion is not synonymous with God. And Catholicism conflicts with my 'religion' if I have to use that term. So, it really makes no difference to me if someone regards it as the answer to anything.
"We hold the spiritual forces of Christianity to be indispensable elements in the moral uplift of most of the German people."
MOST?! A blatant contradiction to true Christianity. God says "whosoever will" not "most"
"What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and the reproduction of our race"
Again, contradictory. Christianity is not racist. God says absolutely everyone is your neighbor and to love your neighbor as yourself. He mentions nothing about race.
"so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe"
This sounds like he is deciding who God's chosen people are. Which happen to be the Jews.
Again, contradictory.
"Peoples that bastardize themselves, or let themselves be bastardized, sin against the will of eternal Providence"
I suppose the term 'bastardize' refers to the Jews? Do you really not see the problem with this statement?
"Hitler was a member of the catholic church until his death in 1945."
Being a member of a church gets you noting. It's not about religion, it's about faith. Hitler had none. He acted and thought completely contrary to God.
As I said. I've seen nothing to suggest that anything about Hitler was remotely Christian.
"How do you determine if someone is not a Christian, if they claim to be? "
The literal definition of a Christian is "little Christ" or "a follower of Christ"
If you are not a follower of Christ, you cannot be defined as a Christian.
And to be a follower of Christ, you have to believe what He taught. And to believe what He taught, you have to know what He taught.
Alot of people who claim the name Christian, have no idea what the Bible says and therefore no idea what Christ taught.
"If they say they believe in God and Christ, why wouldn’t you believe them, no matter how awful they were as people?"
It takes more than a belief in God and Christ, to be a Christian. You have to believe what they say.
Satan believes in God and Christ, but he is not a Christian.
There were many many people in Christ's time that believed in God and saw for themselves Jesus Christ. But they did not accept Him as the Messiah. They did not 'follow Him'.
The Pharisees and Sadducees were the religious leaders of that day - equal to the Pope today. Yet, they were not Christians.
Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
They were religious, but they lead people away from God.
It's not about religion.
"no matter how awful they were as people?"
Granted, people are sinners and imperfect and therefore not always the easiest to love, but a true Christian is not going to be someone "awful". A true Christian is not going to be a Hitler. Because true Christians believe what Christ taught with their whole heart and live accordingly. Or try to anyway - no one's perfect of course.
"No, I am not. If you read my last post, you will notice that I said that it is for God to decide who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell."
Yes, but your statement about believing everyone goes to heaven despite believing in God or not, contradicts this.
"But I do not believe in the Bible and what it says, as I sincerely doubt that humans could’ve kept their hands of such a powerful element for so long."
Then you do not believe in God. You believe in your own version of God. God is all-powerful. Certainly much more so that any human.
Besides, the KJV is almost verbatim to the original text. Or are you implying that those are wrong too?
"I suppose you're speaking of yourself here."
Not really, no.
To doubt the Bible is to doubt God. John 1:1 In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word WAS God.
Of course you would say that. ”It sas so in the Bible, therefore…”. When one doesn’t believe that the Bible has gone untouched by humans, then phrases like that become another possible corruption in the scripture.
Nothing but an all-powerful God.
Do you really think it is beyond God's power to preserve His word accurately and forever?
Of course it’s in his power. This, however, does not mean that he does it. He gave humans free will, thus making us capable of doing whatever we want, here including corrupting the Bible. If he prevented a person from corrupting the Bible, he would take away the person free will.
If you don't believe one thing in the Bible, why believe any of it at all?
I take very few things in the Bible literally. I believe in the meaning, the morals, behind the stories, not the stories themselves.
How do you even know He exists?
I know he exists trough experiences in my life, miracles I’ve seen and been part of.
And what purposes exactly does the Bible supposedly support, if it has been changed by sinful men.
The Bible could, and has been, used to justify acts of unkindness, war and oppression. The Church oppressed any kind of scientific research, including medical, for more than a thousand years, not to mention inquisition, Holy wars, etc.
It sounds like she has contact with the outside world, yes? And her family have her to tell them.
My point is, that no everybody is that lucky. Not to mention the tribes in the jungles, one of them recently discovered, who don’t even know what electricity is, much less Christianity.
I still see nothing that suggests Christianity at all, quite the opposite in fact.
I don't care what someone calls himself. As I said, I could say I'm a giraffe, but it's not true.
So how would you determine that he is a liar? Because someone acts wrongly, very wrongly in this case, does not mean that they do not believe in God. He said in a speech once that he was “doing Gods work”. Now, that is obviously not true, but it would seem that he believed it to be, thus believing in God. So again, how do you determine that he doesn’t believe in God?
Do you really not see the problem with this statement?
Of course I see the problem with Hitler and his statements. You’d have to be a holocaust-denier not to see it.
As I said. I've seen nothing to suggest that anything about Hitler was remotely Christian.
Yet when he himself claims to be doing Gods work, one must assume that he has a belief in God, however wrong he might intercept any message from Him.
"If they say they believe in God and Christ, why wouldn’t you believe them, no matter how awful they were as people?"
It takes more than a belief in God and Christ, to be a Christian. You have to believe what they say.
People can believe what they say, and still intercept it in ways that I, for one, see completely and utterly wrong, also when reading the Bible. The Crusades, for one, was practiced by people who believed in God, believed in Christ, believed in the Message, and still found a way to justify what they did. They were often blessed by priests. Of course, the Church is not necessarily the way to God.
a true Christian is not going to be someone "awful".
So to determine a “true Christian” you must look at his or her acts in life? If they have done much wrong, they are not “True Christian” but if they have done much right, they are “true Christians”.
Yes, but your statement about believing everyone goes to heaven despite believing in God or not, contradicts this.
I didn’t say that. I said I don’t think people go to Hell just because they do not believe in God.
Then you do not believe in God.
… According to you and what you think believing in God means. What the Bible says.
God is all-powerful. Certainly much more so that any human.
When did I say he isn’t?
Besides, the KJV is almost verbatim to the original text. Or are you implying that those are wrong too?
No. I’m not implying it. I’m saying it very clearly. Humans get power hungry. The Bible is powerful. Humans have free will. It is highly unlikely that humans will have been able to keep their hands of an element containing so much power. The “Original text” that you speak of, is more than 2000 years old. It didn’t get translated until Luther, in the 1500s. In those ears in-between power hungry humans could very well have corrupted the Bible.
Emma (Snowy thoughts) wrote: "Of course you would say that. ”It sas so in the Bible, therefore…"Well, yeah. This is a Christian group and I am a Christian. So, yes, I believe the Bible.
"When one doesn’t believe that the Bible has gone untouched by humans, then phrases like that become another possible corruption in the scripture."
There are no corruptions. No contradictions.
"Of course it’s in his power. This, however, does not mean that he does it. He gave humans free will, thus making us capable of doing whatever we want, here including corrupting the Bible."
Yes, God gave us a free will. To make our own decisions for our own lives and eternities. It's not a free for all. It doesn't mean that man can do whatever he wants. And it certainly doesn't apply where God is concerned.
God never gave man the power to change His word. He forbade it, in fact.
" If he prevented a person from corrupting the Bible, he would take away the person free will."
No, not preventing such a thing would be foolish and opposite to what God says, making him a liar.
God's not allowing a person to change his word has nothing to do with free will.
"I take very few things in the Bible literally. I believe in the meaning, the morals, behind the stories, not the stories themselves."
Why bother? If you don't believe it all, it seems like a big waste of time.
"The Bible could, and has been, used to justify acts of unkindness, war and oppression. The Church oppressed any kind of scientific research, including medical, for more than a thousand years, not to mention inquisition, Holy wars, etc."
Wrong. Religion did those things. Not the Bible.
Show me one thing in the Bible that suggests any of what you said.
The Bible can and has been, many times, taken out of context for evil. That's Satan's doing, not the Bible's. And certainly not God's.
You can't try to make the Bible say what you want and use it to justify sin.
Nothing in the Bible supports what Hitler did or any form of hatred or unkindness.
Just because you say you're doing something in God's name, does not mean you are.
I could walk down the street and start punching people in the face, saying it was in your name, but that wouldn't make it true. Not unless you've previously told me I should do it.
It's the same with the Bible. I can't accurately say that it teaches something unless it actually does.
"My point is, that no everybody is that lucky. Not to mention the tribes in the jungles, one of them recently discovered, who don’t even know what electricity is, much less Christianity."
You're back to the hypothetical. You don't personally know every person, and you can't possibly know everything they've experienced.
To assume that they've never had a chance is just that, an assumption.
God gives everyone a chance. "God so loved the world", not 'God so loved the developed world'. And "Whosoever will" not 'whosoever that isn't living in a remote village somewhere'.
Nothing is remote to God. He's everywhere.
"So how would you determine that he is a liar? Because someone acts wrongly, very wrongly in this case, does not mean that they do not believe in God. He said in a..."
I didn't say he was a liar. I think he believed very much in what he said. But that doesn't mean he was a Christian. He believed wrongly.
He very obviously did not have a conscience - he was demon possessed. No one can do the things that he did and not be demon possessed.
But I can determine that he was not a Christian based on his actions and what he said since it was so very contrary to what the Bible says.
"Of course I see the problem with Hitler and his statements. You’d have to be a holocaust-denier not to see it."
So then I'm confused as to why you posted it to support the idea that Hitler was a Christian or that he acted from the Bible.
"Yet when he himself claims to be doing Gods work, one must assume that he has a belief in God,"
Why must I assume that? You don't think someone can lie? He especially had a great motive for lying. He had to convince other people to go along with his twisted ideas. What better way then to say it's about God?
But I do not think he was necessarily lying. I think it's quite possible that he was completely sincere. But if that's the case, he was greatly deceived by Satan.
As I said before, Satan's whole goal is to deceive us. He did a really good job with Hitler, wouldn't you say?
"however wrong he might intercept any message from Him"
It wasn't God's messages he was following. You cannot misinterpret God's word in any way to support what he did. He did not misinterpret, he disregarded.
"People can believe what they say, and still intercept it in ways that I, for one, see completely and utterly wrong, also when reading the Bible. The Crusades, for one, was...."
There is only one accurate way to 'interpret' the Bible. God doesn't speak in a code. He gave us the Bible so we could understand and know Him.
Anyone using it to do wrong is completely wrong. I don't care what they say they believe or who blesses what they're doing. If it's not in the Bible, it's false.
"So to determine a “true Christian” you must look at his or her acts in life?"
No, to determine a true Christian you must look at his beliefs. Actions are the result.
Beliefs are the basis for everything. Actions, good or bad, are reflections of beliefs. Usually. All of us screw up - we don't always do what we know we should. But if someone is a Christian and knowingly sins, they feel remorse about it.
"I said I don’t think people go to Hell just because they do not believe in God."
Which is based on your logic, not on God's.
"God is all-powerful. Certainly much more so that any human.
When did I say he isn’t?"
When you said that the Bible is inaccurate.
You said man changed the Bible. This implies that God was unable to preserve it.
God said His word will be eternal.
Even if the Bible didn't specifically say it was eternal and perfect, why wouldn't God preserve it? Why would an almighty God not think it important to be represented accurately? What would be the purpose in giving it in the first place?
You also imply that God is not all-powerful when you assume that there are some people who never have the chance to know about Him and trust Him.
God can do anything, including personally reaching out to every single human who has ever lived. It's not His fault if they don't reach back.
"No. I’m not implying it. I’m saying it very clearly. Humans get power hungry. The Bible is powerful. Humans have free will..."
The Bible is powerful because God makes it so. Without God's power, it would have faded into near or complete non existence thousands of years ago like so many books and writings have. What other record is anywhere near as old? Or as detailed?
None.
Yes, humans get power hungry, and they have a free will, but that doesn't give them power over God.
Free will is, as I said earlier, freedom to make decisions without God forcing you into anything.
God has the power and the complete right to protect and preserve his word.
"The “Original text” that you speak of, is more than 2000 years old."
So? It's still accurate.
"In those ears in-between power hungry humans could very well have corrupted the Bible."
No, they could not. God would not allow it.
The Jews had a very thorough system for keeping records and transcribing texts.
Their genealogies are meticulous. Do you think they would allow something as important as Gods word be changed over time when it has so much to do with their lives and beliefs?
I don't.
There were people - scribes - who's whole profession was to accurately transcribe the Bible - since the materials that they had then did not last forever.
One error and the whole thing was disregarded and burned and they had to start all over.
One mention of God and they had to completely bathe and get rid of the pen(quill?) they were using. It was that sacred to them.
I don't think they were indifferent in any way about changes.
God can and does protect what is His. He does it with His Word and He does it with His children -something I can attest to personally. And numerous times.
Not allowing Satan to corrupt His word (because it's really not people who try, but Satan), or not allowing Satan free access to Christians, is a testament of His protection. It's got nothing at all to do with free will.
God never gave man the power to change His word. He forbade it, in fact.Of course he did. It says so in the Bible.
" If he prevented a person from corrupting the Bible, he would take away the person free will."
God's not allowing a person to change his word has nothing to do with free will.
So God interfering with the actions of a man, would not be interfering with his free will. Right.
Why bother? If you don't believe it all, it seems like a big waste of time.
You truly think it’s a waste of time for a person to have morals and ethics, if they don’t believe the literal story behind which those are placed?
"The Bible could, and has been, used to justify acts of unkindness, war and oppression. The Church oppressed any kind of scientific research, including medical, for more than a thousand years, not to mention inquisition, Holy wars, etc."
Show me one thing in the Bible that suggests any of what you said.
Judge: 8:7 & 8:10
Gideon has people slayed, and shows no regret for it later on whatsoever.
Exodus: 12:29-30
God supposedly kills a good bunch of innocent kids.
Anyone using it to do wrong is completely wrong. I don't care what they say they believe or who blesses what they're doing. If it's not in the Bible, it's false.
It’s funny though, that I’ve encountered so many Christians in my life, who have told me, and others, over and over again, that the Bible is not to be take literal in it’s histories. In fact, the majority of Christians I’ve ever stumbled upon would tell you that the Bible should not be taken too literal.
You said man changed the Bible. This implies that God was unable to preserve it.
Not, that implies that man has sinned and that the actions of man have not been interfered with by God, not that he couldn’t do it.
The Bible is powerful because God makes it so
That, and because humans believe in it. If no body believed, it would have little power in this world.
Free will is, as I said earlier, freedom to make decisions without God forcing you into anything.
So you don’t think free will applies to God forcing you not to do something, which would certainly have to be the case when someone wanted to change the Bible.
Christianity is the only religion where there is nothing you can do to make sure you get in other than believe. Your good works cannot get you in. Your good intentions cannot get you in. Jesus can. Nothing else. Of course, if you believe and follow Jesus you will end up going good. But they are evidence of your belief not your ticket in.God says there is one way in. Period. You don't accept Christ, you are not getting in. You are being left out. That seems harsh. And yes, you will be condemned if you do not believe. He is very clear on that. But if you yourself get upset by the thought, can you even imagine of how torn up HE is? Do you not think that the creator of the universe will do everything in His considerable power to ensure that every creature with a soul gets a chance to get in? A thousand chances? A million? He sacrificed himself for us. He is not going to leave it with a coffee shop pep talk. He is going to bend heaven and earth to try and get you and everyone else who ever has or ever will live into His home.
We won't suffer in eternity by witnessing those in hell. Hell is total separation from God. Heaven is total communion with God. We won't see each other. But He will know. Each and every soul in hell will personally be known by Him. And He will know they are there. And what they are suffering. He will do everything He can to keep it from happening. He will do things we cannot even imagine or comprehend.
Why do I believe this? Because of what He said and what He is. And I admit I could be mistaken. I don't think so. I think it is in line with His word.
Emma (Snowy thoughts) wrote: "Well who is to say what is good or not? Hitlers followers probably thought they were doing good (I am guessing by people who I debate with). But they weren't. They killed people, tortured people ..."
Minor point of trivia. In the original Hebrew the commandment is not against killing. It is Thou Shall Not Murder. The emphasis is on the taking of an innocent life, not killing period.
Minor point of trivia. In the original Hebrew the commandment is not against killing. It is Thou Shall Not Murder. The emphasis is on the taking of an innocent life, not killing period. So change the killing to murder. Obviously, all 6 million jews weren't guilty of a crime that made them deserve what they got.
Emma (Snowy thoughts) wrote: "Minor point of trivia. In the original Hebrew the commandment is not against killing. It is Thou Shall Not Murder. The emphasis is on the taking of an innocent life, not killing period. So change..."
You are absolutely right. It was just a point of trivia. Some people go and claim the Bible can't be believed if not killing is a commandment and in the Bible there are accounts of people being told to kill others by God. They see it as a contradiction. Just something interesting I came across is all.
Emma (Snowy thoughts) wrote: "God never gave man the power to change His word. He forbade it, in fact.Of course he did. It says so in the Bible.
" If he prevented a person from corrupting the Bible, he would take away the pe..."
I feel like we are going in circles and I won't continue to do so.
You seem to think that free will means being free to do whatever you want regardless of God or anyone else.
It doesn't.
It means that God does not force you to believe in and obey him. That's it.
The very fact that there are morals and standards which you claim to believe in, indicates that doing whatever you want is not ok and is not tolerated.
You can choose to sin and God will not necessarily stop you - he might, but not always. But that doesn't mean he will allow you to change His words. It doesn't mean he will allow you to harm anyone else because it's what you personally want. And changing his words IS harming others. If one person changes what God has said, it deprives another person of knowing what it was that he said.
Free will is not free reign.
"You truly think it’s a waste of time for a person to have morals and ethics, if they don’t believe the literal story behind which those are placed?"
I never said it was a waste of time to have morals. I said it's a waste of time to believe some of the Bible and not all of it. Why base anything you believe on the Bible if you don't believe it's accurate?
"It’s funny though, that I’ve encountered so many Christians in my life, who have told me, and others, over and over again, that the Bible is not to be take literal in it’s histories. In fact, the majority of Christians I’ve ever stumbled upon would tell you that the Bible should not be taken too literal."
I've never said that the histories in the Bible were not to be taken literally. Every single thing recorded as history actually happened.
But that doesn't mean that every single thing is instruction for us to follow.
The Bible is a book of alot of different things. Law, history, poetry, prophecy. To name a few.
But we don't have to reenact it either.
All we are commanded to follow are direct commands. The ten commandments, for example.
But that doesn't mean that any part of the Bible that is not a direct command is unimportant. We understand more about God by these things. We understand what His standards are and what our standards should be.
Those passages that you gave me do not illustrate your point. They were records of what happened. Not commands for us to follow.
I think it's interesting that you only listed 2 verses in Judges(which, by the way, look at the title of the book, it's a book showing judgement - God never says He will not judge us. He says the exact opposite actually. What do you think Hell is, if not judgement?)
Anyway, back to the point, if you read the entire section which those verses are contained you will see that it was God's judgement on wicked people.
You cannot take a verse here and a verse there and think you have something that says God justifies murder. God judges the wicked. He always has and always will. Some people just have longer than others.
The Exodus passage was also Gods judgment. Those people didn't have to die, but they refused to believe the word of the Lord and do what he said. By not believing they killed their own kids or themselves. It wasn't just kids. It was the firstborn of any age.
Our sin hurts others alot of the time. It usually especially affects the kids of those doing the sinning (ie. alcoholics)
"So you don’t think free will applies to God forcing you not to do something,"
No, I do not. If I decided I wanted to kill a bunch of people, do you think it would be wrong of God to forcibly stop me? That it would limit my free will?
I don't.
Changing what God has said, is much more serious than physical murder. Because the words of the Bible affect people's eternal souls not just their physical bodies.
I don't think God takes eternal souls so lightly as to allow others to interfere with them.
I feel like we are going in circles and I won't continue to do so. True that. It’s a rather pointless conversation, all in all.
Why base anything you believe on the Bible if you don't believe it's accurate?
Good question. I believe certain things to be true trough experiences I’ve had in m life, which has let me to believe that they are true. As it is, I’m looking into Islam and atheism, and will after that, continue with Buddhism, Judaism, etc. But none of those religions are true of course.
They, as in Christians, say that if you truly seek an answer, God will give you them. The answers I have gotten have let me to believe what I do.
"It’s funny though, that I’ve encountered so many Christians in my life, who have told me, and others, over and over again, that the Bible is not to be take literal in it’s histories. In fact, the majority of Christians I’ve ever stumbled upon would tell you that the Bible should not be taken too literal."
I've never said that the histories in the Bible were not to be taken literally.
I wasn’t speaking about you. I was speaking of most other Christians I’ve stumbled upon. Most of them have said that the stories in the Bible are not to be taken literally.
Those passages that you gave me do not illustrate your point. They were records of what happened. Not commands for us to follow.
They do illustrate my point, which would be that people have found justifications in the Bible, however much you say that they’re not to be followed.
I think it's interesting that you only listed 2 verses in Judges
I listed two verses because that was the most important ones. You’re familiar with the story, you know what goes with those two lines.
God judges the wicked
Children aren’t wicked, infants aren’t wicked. They haven’t done anything that would make them so.
By not believing they killed their own kids or themselves. It wasn't just kids. It was the firstborn of any age.
Yes, God killed a bunch of kids because their parents didn’t believe in him. So he killed some adults too. I thought kids were supposed to be innocent, until they’re old enough to be accountable for their own decisions.
If I decided I wanted to kill a bunch of people, do you think it would be wrong of God to forcibly stop me?
If God interferes with some murders, why not all of them? It is as wrong to passively watch someone commit murder, and being in a position to stop it, as it is to commit the murder.
"I believe certain things to be true trough experiences I’ve had in m life, which has let me to believe that they are true."So you're basically basing your belief on your own feelings and experiences? Which as I've pointed out can be greatly influenced by Satan. Not that I'm saying that is the case, but it is most definitely a possibility.
God gave us the Bible for guidance and to know Him. Without it, you cannot know where something you feel or experience is coming from. Not really. You can think you know, but you can't really know.
Not everything that seems positive to us is from God and not everything negative is from Satan.
Sometimes God chastens His children if they are living in sin. Sometimes he allows trials in our lives as a test or for some other reason known only to Him. Bad things are not necessarily an indication of Satan working.
And on the other hand, Something that seems good is not necessarily from God. Satan can do all sorts of things. All those tv "healers" and such are not working through the power of God, but Satan.
They might be doing a good thing from a human perspective, but they are not of God.
Another example would be winning the lottery. Now, from a human perspective, winning alot of money is a really good thing. But God does not condone gambling. Therefore a person winning the lottery is not seeing the work of God.
You cannot get an accurate idea of God or Satan based solely on your own feelings or experiences. We need the Bible to act as a filter.
"They, as in Christians, say that if you truly seek an answer, God will give you them. The answers I have gotten have let me to believe what I do."
Yes, but you've got to be looking in the right places. You're not going to find an answer from God if you are allowing Satan to lead you on a false trail. Something that even the most faithful and "strong" Christians are susceptible to. Satan never leaves us alone here on earth.
"I wasn’t speaking about you. I was speaking of most other Christians I’ve stumbled upon. Most of them have said that the stories in the Bible are not to be taken literally."
Then they are wrong and not trusting in what God has said. And quite possibly, not even true Christians. As I've said, not everyone who claims to be, is. Whenever given information about the Bible or Christianity, it is imperative to demand to know where they got this information from. If it's not found in the Bible, it is their own ideas. And to me, completely unacceptable.
"people have found justifications in the Bible,"
No, they have taken a verse here and a verse there to make it say what they wanted.
A record of God's judgment in the past is in no way, justification for anything like that. Specific commands or places where God has clearly said to do or not do something would be justification.
The Bible condemns acts of violence, it does not justify it.
Thou shalt not kill. We all know this one, of course. And it applies to us all. It is a specific command.
Finding an example of God's judgment in the Bible and thinking you are supposed to act that out, does not negate the command to not kill.
The Bible never contradicts itself. Someone using the Bible to justify murder is acting despite what the Bible says, not in accordance with it.
Not to mention that alot of these acts of violence done in the name of religion, were severely racist.
God teaches the exact opposite of racism.
Even in the old testament, when he took out judgment on the wicked, it did not always apply to every single person in that city or group.
Take Rahab for example. She was living in a city that God was going to destroy because of it's wickedness. But she had faith and God saved her. He didn't have to, she was one of them. She was a prostitute, in fact. By human standards, she might be the least eligible for salvation from such a fate. But not to God. God knows what's in every person's heart.
He was so impressed with what was in hers, that he allowed her to be in the lineage of Christ.
"Children aren’t wicked, infants aren’t wicked. They haven’t done anything that would make them so."
We are all born sinners, therefore we are all born wicked.
Not that I'm saying that children deserve to die, but they didn't have to either. (I assume you are talking about the Exodus passage?)
Those children died due to their parent's negligence in not believing what God said. It wouldn't have taken a whole lot of effort to save them, actually. But the parents didn't think it was true. They didn't think it was important enough.
God gives us freedom to raise our kids the way we see fit. And sometimes - alot of times - we screw up and it has direct, negative effects on our children. Sometimes it costs our children's lives.
Don't forget, Satan has great influence over people. Unbelievers are completely unprepared for his deceit because they do not have God's guidance. Satan wants people to screw up where their kids are concerned. What better way than what is illustrated in the Exodus passage?
And How about abortion? Do those children deserve to die?
That's all Satan's doing, though. But if you're talking about loss of innocent lives, abortion has contributed a MUCH greater number than any and all of God's judgments in the Bible.
Also, keep in mind, God does not send those children to Hell. Before the age of accountability, if a child dies, they go straight to Heaven.
Not that I'm saying it was a good thing that they died so young, but it may have been what saved them from an eternity in Hell.
Something to think about.
"Yes, God killed a bunch of kids because their parents didn’t believe in him. So he killed some adults too. I thought kids were supposed to be innocent, until they’re old enough to be accountable for their own decisions."
As I said, God allows us freedom in raising our kids. And we, as fallible humans, screw up.
Remember how everyone used to think bloodletting was such a great idea?
Today we know that's not true, but they didn't know that then. They thought they were doing a good thing. And probably alot of innocent kids died because of it.
They died because of their parents ignorance. Because of a choice they made.
And again, how about abortion? Babies are being killed every day because either their parents are ignorant about what they are really doing, or they just don't care.
Their kids are dying because of a choice they are making.
In the Exodus passage, those kids died because of a choice their parents made.
"If God interferes with some murders, why not all of them? It is as wrong to passively watch someone commit murder, and being in a position to stop it, as it is to commit the murder."
I do not assume to know the reasons God chooses to act sometimes and not others.
But I will say this. Satan has a LOT of control over the world and things that happen in it.
God is sovereign - nothing happens without His knowledge or allowance, but He does not cause everything either.
Sometimes, God allows people to be killed by others. Why? I have no idea. But God knows what is best. He sees what we do not.
Also, He promises to protect His children. He makes no such promise of the unbeliever. They have chosen to reject Him and by default embrace Satan. They are his, to do whatever he will with them, until they decide to give themselves to God.
But sometimes Christians are killed too. Why? I have no idea (again).
Isaiah 55:8-9
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
We can't possibly understand why God does what He does or allows what He allows. But we can have faith that it's never out of His control.
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
"It is as wrong to passively watch someone commit murder, and being in a position to stop it, as it is to commit the murder"
If you truly believe what you said about free will, how can you possibly believe this of God?
Wouldn't it be limiting the murderer's free will to stop them?
Why is that more severe to you than changing what God has said about eternity?
By comparison, it's rather minor actually. Our earthly lives are only about 80 or so years if we are lucky. Eternity is infinite. A physical death on earth is much less tragic than an eternal spiritual death in Hell.
Pardon me for saying so, I do not mean to be rude, but you have a very weak, arbitrary, and irrational view of God.
My God is none of those things.
You say that you believe God is all powerful. But you do not think it is within His power to preserve His word, lest he interfere with free will.
You say that you believe it's wrong of God to sit by and watch someone physically murder another person, but you do not see the problem with them changing the Bible - thereby spiritually murdering millions of other people.
You say that you believe in Heaven and Hell and God and Satan(at least I'm assuming, Satan), yet you don't believe what the Bible says about them.
But you cannot claim to know anything about them or that they even exist for certain if you have no basis - the Bible. It's all just personal preference and speculation.
You claim that you believe in some things in the Bible, but not others. But if any part of it has been changed by humans, Why not every part? What makes one part more valid than any other? Couldn't the commandments just have been Moses' idea based on what he saw in his long life? Why did those have to come from God?
You claim that God decides who goes to Heaven and Hell, yet you base your belief of those things on what makes sense to you. Not what God has said.
You say if someone breaks the commandments alot it's bad, and they go to Hell, but a little bit is ok and they'll still go to Heaven.
These things might sound good to you. But they make absolutely no sense to me.
Mod
Alex-wa wrote: "Well, if I was not a Christian, and someone was trying to convert me, and they started off with, "well, if you're not a Christian, you're going to Hell" then personally, I would be scared away. Tha..."I don't think anyone on here said that was a good thing to do.
I agree, you don't want to scare someone off. The Gospel is a message of love. Love attracts people.
But like Sandy said, it's the truth. The truth is important and people need to be aware of it, but not necessarily all at once.
Well, since every single religion has told me nothing so far besides that I'm going to hell unless I repent to their god specifically, the very idea of religion itself it starting to become scary. At least with atheism there won't be any eternal fire pits I have to spend my life worrying about....So you're basically basing your belief on your own feelings and experiences? Which as I've pointed out can be greatly influenced by Satan. Not that I'm saying that is the case, but it is most definitely a possibility.
Kristen, from what I've read of your comments exchanged with Black Cat (I loved reading that debate), you say that you have been convinced of your faith through your own personal experiences in life, despite the numerous amounts of scientific evidence in favor of the nonexistence of god. How do you know that, based on your own argument here, "Satan" has not led you astray through use of your own personal experiences and that Islam is not actually the answer??? After all, you said yourself that not all good things come from god. So every good thing you've been given throughout your life could have been influenced by the devil so as to look as if it was coming from Yahweh when in fact it could have been a gift of Allah. And, if you don't base your beliefs on personal experiences, then what do you base them on that has caused you to become so radical with them? Is it because you can hear the voice of Yahweh guiding you throughout your life? If this is the case, how do you know that it is not the devil deceiving you yet again? For all you know, you could be playing right into his hands and buying yourself a one-way ticket to hell.
I'm not trying to seem as if I'm challenging your beliefs here, it's just that you seem so sure about everything in religious matters, and that your faith comes from personal experiences and the ontological argument alone. And yet, then you say something like this. It's all a bit confusing, to be honest.
Brace yourself, this is gonna be a long post. lolSamantha wrote: "Well, since every single religion has told me nothing so far besides that I'm going to hell unless I repent to their god specifically, the very idea of religion itself it starting to become scary. ..."
I cannot speak for every single religion, since I have not done extensive study on them all. But Christianity is the only one that offers any hope. It's the only one that you do not have to work your way to Heaven or it's equivalent. It's the only one that is based solely on God and no man. And it's the only one that has conquered death when Jesus rose from the dead.
It's the only one that has a living God. The only one with a personal God who knows the very number of hairs on your head and the very deepest desires of your heart.
And don't forget, the message of Christianity is not death and destruction and hellfire.
It's love.
God loved us enough to save us from death and destruction and hellfire. He gave His own Son for our sakes.
This is also unique of Christianity.
"At least with atheism there won't be any eternal fire pits I have to spend my life worrying about"
No. That may be what atheists think, but it is false. Believing something, does not make it so. You just will not be expecting it.
And with Christianity, you do not have to worry about anything. When you put your trust in Christ, there's no possible way you can end up in Hell. Something else that is -if not completely, pretty close to - unique to Christianity. You can know for sure where you are going to spend eternity. I'm honestly not sure if any other religion says you can know for sure - I would seriously think not though.
"you have been convinced of your faith through your own personal experiences in life,"
To a certain extent, but not completely. Everything I've experienced has to line up with the Bible.
Experiences of blatant divine protection despite a very Satanic presence. That sort of thing. God always protects His children. And I've seen lots and lots of His protection first hand. Satan does not protect, especially those who profess to believe in God.
Also, answered prayer for spiritual things. I've seen plenty of that too. Something Satan wants no part of.
The experiences I spoke of were not random feelings I got when I heard a certain song or was in a certain place. The things I've experienced have aligned with God's Word.
I never said I based my faith completely on my own experiences. I said (well, at the moment I can't remember exactly what I said about this), but in essence, certain things that have happened in my life have been quite obviously from God. That there have been times in my life where I could see God's hand.
I said I didn't need the Bible to tell me that God exists. And I don't - all I have to do is look outside at sunset and know that it did not just happen by itself.
But I in no way discounted the Bible. It is the basis for every single thing I believe.
But sometimes, God gives us certain things that act to affirm our faith. And if we are watchful enough, we catch them.
Also, there is a sense of peace that comes only from God. It is difficult to explain if you have not experienced it.
It's not a sudden high of emotion that makes you go 'whoa, that must be God'. It's a...stillness, I guess. A rightness, in a sense. And you no longer worry about things. You don't have to.
"But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus." Philippians 4:19
Not that we don't screw up sometimes, and let Satan plant doubts in our heads, but we know there is no need to worry when God is in control.
Read 1 Kings 19. Specifically verses 11-13.
God is not in any of the big, dramatic things that might get your attention at first. He is "a still small voice". You have to be quiet and be looking and listening for Him.
"despite the numerous amounts of scientific evidence in favor of the nonexistence of god"
There is no scientific evidence to either prove or disprove the existence of God.
There is only the way people interpret the information they have.
Science has laws. Things have to happen a certain way. To be considered true science, something must be proven. It must be observable and measurable by tests that must be repeatable.
God is not subject to the laws of science or anything else. There is no way that science can understand the characteristics and qualities of God.
God is infinite. Humans do not fully understand the meaning of infinity. We understand the word, but the practical application is harder. Things have a beginning in our minds. They have to have an origin. They have an end.
God does not.
And along with that, God is not subject to time. He is in the past, present, and future all at once.
He is omnipresent. Everywhere at once.
God is triune. He is three persons in one. And along the same idea, Jesus was fully God and fully man.
These ideas are illogical humanly speaking. But they are true of God.
It is impossible for science to even understand God, much less prove or disprove Him.
"How do you know that, based on your own argument here, "Satan" has not led you astray through use of your own personal experiences and that Islam is not actually the answer???"
Satan has no desire for anything spiritual. His desire is for destruction. Something we've seen from Islam in recent days, yes?
And, yes, I know, not everyone who is Muslim is responsible for terrorism.
But I have yet to hear how the terrorist attacks are condemned by Islam.
They were said to be acting "too literally". But they did not come up with ideas on their own. They got them from their religion.
When Christianity is acted out "too literally", we see missionaries, not terrorists.
Moderate followers of a certain religion are not true followers of that religion. As in, ones who take some and not all of it.
If you believe some of a religion, you should believe it all, otherwise what's the point? Why believe at all?
Satan wants destruction and only that. Nothing about Christianity is destructive. It only becomes so when people chose what they do and do not want to accept. When people decide what God is saying, rather than what he has actually said. And in those cases, it is not Christianity that is to blame. Christianity is all about love, not destruction.
"you said yourself that not all good things come from god. So every good thing you've been given throughout your life could have been influenced by the devil so as to look as if it was coming from Yahweh when in fact it could have been a gift of Allah."
No, I said, not everything that seems good - from a human perspective - is from God. God and humans differ on ideas of goodness. Humans are subjective. God is objective.
Something that seems good to you might not be good at all to God.
Everything good, in fact comes from God. "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." James 1:17
But we may not see everything that is good, as actually being good. God sees what we do not. He knows what we do not. And only He determines what is good and what is not.
If something is good, based on the Bible's definition of 'good', it is from God.
Unfortunately, not everything we experience is labeled as distinctly good or evil. And in those cases we seek God for guidance.
"And, if you don't base your beliefs on personal experiences, then what do you base them on that has caused you to become so radical with them?"
As I said and will continue to say, My faith is based solely on the Bible. Every single thing I believe. My experiences have acted as confirmation to those beliefs.
If I was not so "radical", I would not believe at all. I do not go into things half-hearted. If something is true, it is completely true. If it is false, it is completely false. There is no middle ground with the truth. I accept all or nothing.
"Is it because you can hear the voice of Yahweh guiding you throughout your life?"
In a sense. Now, I'm not talking, audible voices here. But God has a certain....'voice', for lack of a better word, that you can hear if you are listening. He speaks to each and every one of His children. But we have to be paying attention. "still small voice."
Sometimes, you get a feeling. A very strong feeling that is unexplainable to do something out of the ordinary. Not that you go dancing in the street naked or anything like that. But you wake up at 4am for no apparent reason with someone on your mind.
That's God telling you to pray for them.
I have dreams about people sometimes. People I love but don't have alot of contact with all the time, so I really shouldn't be dreaming about them.
It's nothing life altering - these dreams. But it brings them to my mind and makes me think about them for a long time afterward. And if I'm not too self absorbed at the moment, I remember to pray for them.
If you wanna hear something really freaky, I had dreams like this about my grandma shortly before she died, my great great aunt again, shortly before she died, great great uncle - same. My sister in law, before I found out she was pregnant with one of my nephews or my niece - I forget. And others I've forgotten about at this time.
Now, I'm not saying I'm psychic or anything like that, but I am saying God gave me those random dreams that I can't even remember to get my mind on the person they were about so that I would pray for them. Or at least, that's my theory :)
But I did hear a preacher tell the story about how he woke up in the middle of the night with this strong presence of a particular teen in his youth group on his mind. He couldn't get him out of his head and he had the feeling of extreme urgency. He didn't understand why, but he prayed. Prayed hard. In the morning after he'd spoken with that teen he found out that at that very moment, he was planning to commit suicide. God woke him up and gave him those thoughts so that he would pray for that teen. Prayer is powerful.
God works by 'speaking' to us. But it's not necessarily verbal.
"If this is the case, how do you know that it is not the devil deceiving you yet again?"
Satan wants nothing good. Nothing spiritual. These instances of "hearing God's voice" were all centered around the spiritual - prayer. Satan certainly doesn't want you praying.
"For all you know, you could be playing right into his hands and buying yourself a one-way ticket to hell."
As I've said, Satan wants nothing good. He wants destruction. And getting someone to believe in God and the Bible, is not the way to achieve destruction.
Getting people to doubt God and doubt the Bible, is the way to achieve destruction.
"I'm not trying to seem as if I'm challenging your beliefs here"
Feel free to challenge my beliefs. It's a good test for me :)
"it's just that you seem so sure about everything in religious matters,"
I am 100% sure. That's the beauty of trusting in God. There is no doubt if you're trusting in Him. There's no ifs, no maybes.
God did not have to give us assurance, He is sovereign and all powerful. He can do or not do whatever He wants. And he chose to love us. He chose to give us His word to know about Him and His love. He chose to give us assurance of our eternities.
"your faith comes from personal experiences and the ontological argument alone"
No, my faith comes from the Bible.
"It's all a bit confusing, to be honest."
I'm sorry, I do not mean to be. Sometimes, I do not explain things the best way they could be explained. I realize this, it's why I'm not a teacher.
I'm a very mathematical minded person - I specifically liked algebra - I'm a weirdo, I know ;)
But the thing with algebra is, I knew the right answer alot of the time, but I was really bad at showing my work.
You're right. I believe I can use the best judgement that apparently god gave me and say that was definitely one long-ass post. :-)It's the only one that has a living God. The only one with a personal God who knows the very number of hairs on your head and the very deepest desires of your heart.
Sigh, that's what they all say....
But Christianity is the only one that offers any hope. It's the only one that you do not have to work your way to Heaven or it's equivalent. It's the only one that is based solely on God and no man. And it's the only one that has conquered death when Jesus rose from the dead.
Not from what the Muslims as my local Islamic Support Center have told me.
Believing something, does not make it so.
You know that's exactly what the atheists have told me.
God loved us enough to save us from death and destruction and hellfire. He gave His own Son for our sakes
God also loved you enough to kill you all off...twice.
And with Christianity, you do not have to worry about anything. When you put your trust in Christ, there's no possible way you can end up in Hell.
And the Muslims have told me that if I put my faith in the word of Allah and in Muhammad, nothing bad will ever happen to me. :p
Look bud, I've heard all this before. Like I told Sandy, religion sounds like nothing but fluff and sugar to me. Just another thing that looks good, but something I really just don't need.
To a certain extent, but not completely. Everything I've experienced has to line up with the Bible.
Experiences of blatant divine protection despite a very Satanic presence.
Could you please explain??? Because I am seriously just not getting any of this...
The experiences I spoke of were not random feelings I got when I heard a certain song or was in a certain place. The things I've experienced have aligned with God's Word.
Again, could you please explain???
all I have to do is look outside at sunset and know that it just did not happen by itself
No, it didn't happen by itself. Have you ever read Stephen Hawking's "A Brief History of Time"?
But sometimes, God gives us certain things that act to affirm our faith. And if we are watchful enough, we catch them.
Why does it have to be subtle, though? Why can't it be some sort of obvious sign from one particular god telling me that he/she is the one I should believe in? I'm trying to find which faith I belong to, but nothing seems clear and it seems like I have to find god instead of god finding me, which is drawing me even further from the idea of religion.
There is no scientific evidence to either prove or disprove the existence of God.
Have you ever read Richard Dawkins "The God Delusion"? I think you'd be surprised just how much scientific evidence there is to disprove the idea of god.
These ideas are illogical humanly speaking. But they are true of God.
I really wish I could believe that, Kristen, I really do.
But I have yet to hear how the terrorist attacks are condemned by Islam.
I can explain that. I've been talking to this guy on Goodreads named Ahmed to help me understand Islam a bit better, here's his user page:
http://www.goodreads.com/user/show/27...
He explained to me in great detail the cause for the terrorist attacks by muslims. I'll copy and paste part of one of his PMs to me:
"Jihad, there are two types of Jihad.
1) Greater
2) Lesser
1)The Greater Jihad, is the struggle against the self. This includes things such as losing weight or trying to get better at something. Basically anything that helps you improve yourself.
"The most excellent jihad (struggle) is that for the conquest of self."
— Muhammad Ibn Abdullah
2) The Lesser Jihad, is what is known in the West. this is the basically self-defense. For example, if your house is being attacked by people with guns then you have the right to use force. In this Jihad, you cannot just go around and kill people. this includes your country. You can only try to get rid of the enemy from your home, And the thing is that you cannot kill one innocent person. I am like 95% sure that it is said in the Quran, that "killing one innocent person is like killing all of humanity and saving one person is like saving all of humanity."
***This is known in the West as "Holy War"****"
So basically people have misinterpreted the Lesser Jihad to mean that you have to actually seek out your enemies and destroy them. Since the Pakistani and Iran government is so corrupt, they've convinced it's citizens (through use of the media) that America was it's enemy and that they must be destroyed. Take that and add the fact that Muslims and Christians have been going at it for the last thousand years, and you've got yourself a terrorist attack.
Satan wants destruction and only that. Nothing about Christianity is destructive. It only becomes so when people chose what they do and do not want to accept.
So basically...accept what I say as fact or pay the consequences.
Thank you for telling me of those experiences you have...but I'm sorry to say...that many of my Islamic friends have told me practically identically the same story. Only they've claimed to hear the "voices" of Muhammad. And my Wiccan aunt says that she can constantly hear "voices" (as you describe them) in the rain and wind and earth, and the "voice" of the Great Mother. Your experience is identical to every other story of this nature that I've ever heard, and they've all been from different religions. This the first, in fact, that I've heard of Christianity. The only religiously-related group that doesn't have a story such as this to tell is Atheism. Although sometimes I've heard my mom (who is an atheistic astrophysicist) say that she's gotten the answers to a problem she's been struggling with just randomly pop into her head. If there is a god, then that sounds like something he would do. But then again, you said that he doesn't speak to those who betray him.
I have a few questions for you, if you don't mind.
1) If god is all-knowing, why did he create humans and leave Lucifer in heaven if he knew that both would betray him?
2) What exactly is a soul?
3) If god is willing to prevent evil, but not able, then isn't he not omnipotent? But if he is able and isn't willing, then isn't he malevolent? If he's both able and willing, then why doesn't he get rid of evil?
4) Why didn't god just get rid of satan instead of keeping him around where he could easily corrupt people's minds?
5) If the world is so screwed up right now, then why doesn't god destroy it again to give people a fresh start? We're only human, after all, and he can't expect us to not go corrupt.
6) If god is so perfect, why did he create something that was even capable of sinning? If he so powerful, how come adam and eve weren't immune to satan's taunts?
7) Can demon servants of satan possess people, like in the Stephen King movies? (I know, stupid question, but it's just something I've been wondering)
8) Why couldn't god just forgive us? Why did he have to send his son to die for us, just so that he could forgive us? If he's all-powerful, then why have to go through this big process if he could just forgive us without having his son go through so much pain?
9) What's the difference between a soul and a spirit?
10) Last one, I promise. Where is heaven and hell?
Sorry if it's a burden. I'm just so curious and so lost as to which religion I should choose. Every single one has told me exactly what you and Sandy have been telling me. And I'm really just trying to find out which one is telling the truth.
11) Ok, I lied. One more that I just thought of now: What does god look like? I know we're supposedly made in his image, but does that mean the old man with long white beard stereotype is true?
Gah! Yet another long-ass post...
Question #7, lol. Have you read Genesis? That might answer #6
Samantha, I really want to know the answers to your questions too- especially no. 4.
I've replied to most of this, and I was WAY out of room. I think it might be a 3-parter.Now there's a family emergency involving the wrong medication, so I'm gonna have to get back to you later.
That's fine. Respond whenever you can and I hope everything's alright.
Samantha wrote: "That's fine. Respond whenever you can and I hope everything's alright."Thanks, she's alright, it was just a long wait in the ER, ugh.
I was just starting on your questions when I had to leave, so I'll post the rest now and save those for later.
Samantha wrote: "Sigh, that's what they all say...."Who and how exactly?
When a man starts acting as God(Buddah, Mohommad, etc.) - they are calling themselves God. Perhaps not directly, but when they start adding to what God said, they make themselves equal with God. It's blasphemy. It's what Satan did to get himself cast out of Heaven.
I'm unaware of any of those religious leaders being omniscient or all powerful. I'm unaware of any of them being able to know each and every single person who has ever lived or ever will live. And by knowing, I mean knowing them better than they know themselves. Knowing everything they think, feel, have gone through, and of course the thing I said about the number of hairs on your head. Everyone, not just the believers.
Christ was the only one to ever conquer death. He's the only one to have shown a fraction of His power to man. Not to mention all the miracles He did during His earthly ministry.
All those other leaders proposed their ideas, gathered followers, and died. End of story. None of them ever rose again. And certainly not of their own power. Jesus did.
"Not from what the Muslims as my local Islamic Support Center have told me."
And that is?
"God also loved you enough to kill you all off...twice."
Um...what? God doesn't kill anybody. Sin has consequences and those consequences are, among other things, death. Sin is not God's doing, it's our own doing.
But we do not have to die twice. Only once - physically. The second death is Hell. We do not have to endure Hell. Christ already did for us.
"And the Muslims have told me that if I put my faith in the word of Allah and in Muhammad, nothing bad will ever happen to me. :p"
Well, that's a bit unrealistic, don't you think? Even God does not make that claim. Does becoming a Muslim keep you from ever dying here on earth? Don't think so. Not to mention all the crappy stuff that happens in our daily lives.
No, I would say there is absolutely no basis for a statement like that.
"Look bud, I've heard all this before. Like I told Sandy, religion sounds like nothing but fluff and sugar to me. Just another thing that looks good, but something I really just don't need."
It's unfortunate that you feel that way, because whether we realize it or not we do need God. He on the other hand does not need us. He loves us and wants us with Him, but he does not need us.
And I'm not sure what part of Christianity sounds like "fluff and sugar", it's not a feel good message. Unless you're counting God's unconditional love as that. But living the Christian life is not easy. God never said it would be. It's hard. It's a constant struggle. It's definitely not an easy life.
"To a certain extent, but not completely. Everything I've experienced has to line up with the Bible.
Experiences of blatant divine protection despite a very Satanic presence.
Could you please explain??? Because I am seriously just not getting any of this..."
As in, first and foremost, my faith is based on the Word of God. But things have happened in my life as a clear demonstration of God working. And in those cases they do not contradict the Bible.
Like me being able to accomplish something when there's no possible way I could accomplish that particular task on my own. "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me"
Like times when I could actually see God's hand of protection around me. "The LORD is my light and my salvation—whom shall I fear? The LORD is the stronghold of whom shall I be afraid?"
Like times when I saw real answered prayer. "Ask and it shall be given unto you"
Things that, someone who does not believe as I do may not see the way I do and therefore would not make a lot of sense to them.
We cannot base our beliefs solely on experiences because we might be interpreting them wrongly. But we can examine them and see what the Bible says and see that it was clearly from God or not. Alot of the time anyway, as I said, not everything that happens in our life is labeled as good or evil.
"Again, could you please explain???"
I will try.
God is not a feeling you get. He's not a rush of emotions.
God is love, yes. But love is not about emotions, it's about choices. About making the difficult choice because of our love for someone else. Love was God sending His Son to die a humiliating and brutal death on the cross so that one day we might all be able to live in Heaven with Him. It was not something He did just because it felt nice. It was torture to watch His Son die for us. Just like it's torture for any loving parent to watch their child in pain. With God, it's much much worse, because He knows everything. He knows exactly how much pain the death on the cross was.
Our emotions are always changing. They are not consistent. God is consistent. He never changes. "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today and for ever."
Emotions can be affected by Satan. People get depressed - even Christians if we allow Satan to affect us. As I said, he never leaves us alone here on earth.
Emotions are not a definite indication of the truth. They are not sure.
The kind of things I'm talking about when I say I've experienced things that I knew were from God are things that probably shouldn't have happened. I don't know how much I can elaborate without going through and giving every one of my own experiences. Something which I'm not really planning to do. Those are mine and I'm not inclined to share them. At least not all of them. I will share one.
I grew up in Chicago. Right in the city. We were about 20 minutes from downtown - and that's with traffic.
The neighborhood I lived in until the age of 12, used to be a nice neighborhood. But one by one the nice people started moving away and the gangs started moving in. Pretty soon, we were the only white family left on the block (please don't take this for racism on my part, I'm not at all - my sister in law took it that way when we told her - but that's simply how it was. Alot of my good friends are black and Asian).
Anyway, if you've experienced living in the middle of a predominantly black neighborhood made up of alot of gangs, when you are not black, you will have noticed that despite the fact that you are not racist at all, that doesn't keep people from hating you anyway.
This is pretty much how it was when we left - why we left in fact.
We kept to ourselves, didn't bother anybody. But we were white. We were invading their territory (I guess anyway, it's not like we ever had a nice talk about it).
That experience I was talking about comes in here. My brothers are older than me, I was only 11 or 12 at the time. They were old enough to work. One night they were coming home from work when they were literally surrounded by a gang.
Now I'm not sure how familiar you are with inner city gangs, but they are not all talk. They don't just pretend to be scary. They hurt people. Kill people, without any remorse. They go to jail again and again without really caring.
It had to be pretty terrifying, but my brother's didn't say anything, they didn't get defensive or aggressive they kept walking home, despite the fact that they were surrounded by people that hated them and wanted to at least hurt them.
It was a miracle but they made it all the way home and no one even touched them.
That's not because they didn't want to, it's because God wouldn't let them.
Things happened literally ALL the time in that neighborhood to people. But never to us. God protected us despite a very satanic presence.
After my brothers got home, it was a long stressful night. We had no idea what those people were planning, if they were going to randomly shoot at the house - wouldn't be the first time in that neighborhood. Or if they might try to burn the house down.
But nothing. Not a peep. You could literally feel the tension from the presence of Satan wanting to harm us but not being able to. Divine protection.
We left shortly after that, of course. No need asking for trouble. But God kept us safe despite the circumstances where we shouldn't have been safe at all.
That's just one. There have been many like it.
"No, it didn't happen by itself. Have you ever read Stephen Hawking's "A Brief History of Time"?"
The evolutionist,right? No, I have not. And to be honest, I probably will not. Evolution is illogical. I won't get into it on here again, but aside from the fact that it contradicts God, it explains absolutely nothing. I'm not interested in supposed theories, I'm interested in proof and origin. Without those two things accounted for, it's all nonsense.
"Why does it have to be subtle, though? Why can't it be some sort of obvious sign from one particular god telling me that he/she is the one I should believe in? I'm trying to find which faith I belong to, but nothing seems clear and it seems like I have to find god instead of god finding me, which is drawing me even further from the idea of religion."
I never said it had to be subtle. That example I gave was anything but subtle. But most of the time it is going to be subtle. Unless you are in a dire circumstance, there's no need for such extreme measures.
And as I said before, God makes certain promises to His children. The only promise He makes to the unbeliever is that they can become His child any time no matter what they've done in the past.
God doesn't give signs and miracles to make people believe in Him. Not usually - He may choose to work that way once in a while. It's certainly in His power. But, generally, He does not. You have to first place your faith in Him before He's going to give you those kinds of things.
Back in the Bible, he did many many miracles and people still rejected Him.
And besides, Satan can do miracles too. He can do all sorts of things to deceive people.
2 Thessalonians 2:9 - Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
Matthew 24:24 - For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
We aren't supposed to base our faith on miracles. God is not our own personal genie. He's the creator of the universe, He doesn't need to prove Himself to us.
Matthew 16:4 - A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it,
He doesn't want you to put your faith in Him because there's hard, fast evidence. Because you have proof. Faith isn't about proof. If it was, it wouldn't be faith. It would be forced.
God can do absolutely anything He wants. He could choose to give every single person their own undeniable miracle that would force them to believe in Him. But He doesn't. He doesn't force anything. He wants your faith. Faith is believing in something despite what your logic may be telling you. Faith is about the unseen, not the seen.
Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Faith is what it's all about with God. Without it, everything else is a waste.
Hebrews 11:6 - But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
And yes, you may have to search for God.
Proverbs 2:3-5 "Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding; If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures; Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God."
Knowledge about God is precious. It's a "hid treasure" It might take a little effort to find it. And God rewards those who do - "he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him"
Luckily we have the Bible, the place where God has revealed everything we need to know about Him.
"Have you ever read Richard Dawkins "The God Delusion"? I think you'd be surprised just how much scientific evidence there is to disprove the idea of god."Again, no, I have not.
I doubt it. I've heard lots and lots of "evidence" against God. I think you're using the term "scientific" rather loosely. As I said, there can't possibly be any scientific evidence to either prove or disprove God. God is not subject to the laws of science.
Human logic is extremely limited.
"I really wish I could believe that, Kristen, I really do."
Mark 10:15 - Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
This isn't saying you have to accept God when you're a child or not at all. It's saying you have to have faith the way a child does.
Children believe in things that seem illogical to us. They haven't had time to let all these things we "know" get in the way of their faith.
But the things we "know" might be completely wrong.
The only thing that is keeping you from believing is yourself. Your own preconceived ideas of truth.
"So basically people have misinterpreted the Lesser Jihad to mean that you have to actually seek out your enemies and destroy them. Since the Pakistani and..."
No offense, but you personally have not studied this out, so I cannot accept what you're telling me as fact.
He may have explained things to you, but where are the 'scripture verses' to back up what he says?
What have they misinterpreted? The exact words? And what in the Quran contradicts that misinterpretation?
I do not expect you to answer these things, because I believe you've said you're only looking into it.
I need to study it for myself.
In the case of something like Hitler, where you say he took a particular verse to justify what he was doing, I am able to not only explain how he was misinterpreting that(or disregarding rather), but also I can offer you verse upon verse that contradicts his actions. Verse upon verse to show how God's character does not align with his actions.
(I cannot remember if you actually said that about Hitler, just take the 'you' in the general sense).
With things like the Bible and Islam, you've got to do alot of cross referencing to learn about the core beliefs. You need more than just one verse here or a few words there. You have to completely know beyond a doubt who God or Allah is based on what the entire book says.
You said he explained that the Lesser Jihad is self defense. That they are allowed to defend themselves from their enemies.
But what is their definition of self defense? What is their definition of their enemies? Or their home? Isn't anyone who rejects the ideas of Islam an infidel? Don't the infidels corrupt the believers? So isn't it possible that to achieve a perfect home would mean that you've got to rid your "home" of the infidels? And isn't it possible that their definition of home might mean 'earth' or a specific country they live in? Wouldn't the overpopulation of infidels be an attack on your home?
It takes a much more in depth study than simply a summary of what lesser and greater jihad means. An in depth study of who Allah is. What his characteristics are.
A study which I will not be satisfied for anyone to do for me. Something I plan on doing when I have the time.
And until such time, my views will remain unchanged.
"Take that and add the fact that Muslims and Christians have been going at it for the last thousand years, and you've got yourself a terrorist attack."
No. Anyone using Christianity to justify things like the Crusades, is sorely mistaken. Christianity is not responsible, religion is. Man's ideas of what God wants rather than what God has actually said.
"Satan wants destruction and only that. Nothing about Christianity is destructive. It only becomes so when people chose what they do and do not want to accept.
So basically...accept what I say as fact or pay the consequences"
Not quite what I said. I said Satan wants destruction and that nothing in the Bible is destructive. It's a way to tell if something we see today is from God or not. People deciding what the Bible says of their own wisdom and not God's, create destruction - Hitler, Crusades, etc.
But I suppose you could say that...because what I'm saying is what God has said. And yes if you do not accept what God has said, then yes, you will have to deal with the consequences.
"many of my Islamic friends have told me practically identically the same story. Only they've claimed to hear the "voices" of Muhammad. And my Wiccan aunt says that she can constantly hear "voices" (as you describe them) in the rain and wind and earth, and the "voice"..."
"Although sometimes I've heard my mom (who is an atheistic astrophysicist) say that she's gotten the answers to a problem she's been struggling with just randomly pop into her head."
The difference is that they are basing their beliefs on those things. I am not. Because, again, Satan is not restricted from planting ideas and feelings in your mind.
The "voice" I described is something that is spiritual only. It is in concordance with the Bible. It's not for any random thing that you need an answer for. The Lord's voice is not your own personal 8 Ball. This voice is God's prompting you to pray. That's it. It's nothing so self centered as the answers you may be seeking in life. It's all about prayer.
Now, God does guide us through our lives. That's not quite the same thing I was talking about. This is when we are faced with a decision and we aren't sure what the answer is. God may guide us through certain signs or feelings, but it doesn't just happen. We've got to pray and study the Bible to know what God is leading us to decide. It takes effort and sometimes we don't get a definite answer right away, sometimes it takes years.
That's not the same "voice" I was talking about. The voice I was talking about is more a random thing for which you are not prepared. Something that does not happen often. But when it does, it is always leading you to pray.
"I have a few questions for you, if you don't mind."
I do not mind at all. But keep in mind, some of the things you may be asking, there may be no answer I can give you. Some things we cannot know because some things are determined by God for reasons only He knows.
And some things might have a very profound answer that I, at the moment might not be able to give you. I will be the first to admit that I am not as studied up on the Bible as I need to be. Have you ever heard the phrase, 'the more you learn the less you know'? Or it's something like that. This was true in college and it's extremely true with the Bible. There's so much information, you can't possibly know it all. Plus I'm only human and haven't studied as much as I should.
Having said that, I'll do my best and get back to you if there's something I can't answer right away.
Q&A to come later.
So you're basically basing your belief on your own feelings and experiences? Which as I've pointed out can be greatly influenced by Satan. Not that I'm saying that is the case, but it is most definitely a possibility.Not only. I believe what I believe because I have searched for the truth, and this is what I’ve found. I already explained to you that I’ve asked for answer, and these are what I got. If you don’t believe Satan can make someone influence the Bible, why would you believe he can make someone influence Gods answers to a person?
"They, as in Christians, say that if you truly seek an answer, God will give you them. The answers I have gotten have let me to believe what I do."
Yes, but you've got to be looking in the right places.
And how, if I may ask, does one know where the right place to look is? I’m positive that I couldn’t have found a better “place” to look for answers, or a better time.
"I wasn’t speaking about you. I was speaking of most other Christians I’ve stumbled upon. Most of them have said that the stories in the Bible are not to be taken literally."
Then they are wrong and not trusting in what God has said.
Heaven has got to be a very small place if everyone who doesn’t believe every word written in the Bible aren’t Christians.
Those children died due to their parent's negligence in not believing what God said.
So if I gave someone the ultimatum of either doing what I say, or having their children murdered, it would be a nice little choice, easily done. Of course, there would only be those two options: Do as I say or have your children murdered.
It wouldn't have taken a whole lot of effort to save them, actually
It probably would though. One thing is saying that you believe in God. It’s another matter entirely to actually believe in him. I believe you said something much like that in one of your earlier posts. It’s not all that easy to throw away everything you ever believed and turn to God, and fully and truly believe in him. So yes, it would take quite some effort for them to believe.
But if you're talking about loss of innocent lives, abortion has contributed a MUCH greater number than any and all of God's judgments in the Bible…….
Why are you bringing abortion into it? I haven’t even stated my opinion on the matter. And you said it yourself; “Abortion is Satans doing”. Therefore not Gods. The above, however, was Gods doing, at least according to the Bible. Yes, those kids would go to heaven, but so will the kids who’re aborted. And they might very well have been born into an atheist or a Muslims or a Buddhist family, and lived their whole lives not believing in Christ. I believe I once saw a statistic for which people get abortion, and Christianity didn’t have a very big percentage, meaning that many of the aborted children would likely grow up to be non-believers.
"It is as wrong to passively watch someone commit murder, and being in a position to stop it, as it is to commit the murder"
If you truly believe what you said about free will, how can you possibly believe this of God?
Wouldn't it be limiting the murderer's free will to stop them?
You’re taking the words of contents. I don’t believe God would interfere with our choices, be that murder or changing the Bible. That was all you.
Pardon me for saying so, I do not mean to be rude, but you have a very weak, arbitrary, and irrational view of God.
If you don’t mean to be rude, then don’t say thins that are. You may think that my view on God is weak, because it differs from yours, but by comparison I think you have been sadly mislead by the Bible. I know you will deny this to no end, so you don’t have to reply on this. But what you think I have and have not, really is no interest of mine.
You say that you believe God is all powerful. But you do not think it is within His power to preserve His word, lest he interfere with free will.
Weren’t you against taking words out of contents? I said I believe he has the power, but I don’t believe he would hinder a person in corrupting the Bible, if that person so chooses.
You claim that you believe in some things in the Bible, but not others. But if any part of it has been changed by humans, Why not every part?
Good question. I do believe just about every part has been greatly altered, or corrupted if you will. But behind every alteration lies some truth. Pardon me if I haven’t made myself clear enough: I believe in God, I believe in Jesus. I believe this because I have felt His presence, not because the Bible tells me it is so. As I’ve mentioned, I believe in the morals behind the stories, not the stories themselves.
You claim that God decides who goes to Heaven and Hell, yet you base your belief of those things on what makes sense to you. Not what God has said.
You mean what the Bible said.
You say if someone breaks the commandments alot it's bad, and they go to Hell, but a little bit is ok and they'll still go to Heaven.
I have said no such thing. I said that I would think Hitler would go to Hell for what he did, as he didn’t seem to regret or repent his actions in any way.
These things might sound good to you. But they make absolutely no sense to me.
Good. Then you understand how I feel about the Bible.
Also, if God is all good, all loving, all forgiving and immortal- then why didn't he make us immortal like him- in his own image, as he made us? I know the technical reason is that Adam and Eve sinned, but he's all forgiving? And however many millions of years have passed? Even I forgive my friends after that long.....(don't say that we're not his friends....)
Chiara *♥☺Eat cheesecake.....NOW☺♥* wrote: "Also, if God is all good, all loving, all forgiving and immortal- then why didn't he make us immortal like him- in his own image, as he made us? I know the technical reason is that Adam and Eve sin..."Well what's the point of making us all immortal when someday He will come back and take up the Christan's? And when He does that, we will have a new body and live forever with him.
Also the punishment for sin is death, and everyone has sinned
I know the technical reason is that Adam and Eve sinned, but he's all forgiving? And however many millions of years have passed?
what are you asking here?
I won't respond to your whole post, I feel as if we're not communicating well here at all, you think I'm taking things you're saying out of context and I think the same of you.This could probably go on for a while without any kind of resolution for either one of us.
I'll only respond to a few things to clarify what was said.
"If you don’t believe Satan can make someone influence the Bible, why would you believe he can make someone influence Gods answers to a person?"
The Bible is God's divine word. It is His to protect. He will not allow it to be corrupted by man or Satan.
Not that they haven't tried, that is the reason we have so many versions. The original is the only accurate one. All others change things.
God may allow people to make new versions, but He will never allow the original to be changed or destroyed.
Because, again, what would be the point in giving it at all? God would not have given His perfect word only to have it destroyed by sin. It would be a waste of His time. And God does not waste His time.
People on the other hand are free to believe what they want. They are free to say what they want to others. And until someone is a Christian, they are not necessarily protected of God. He only makes that promise to His Children. Satan can plant any idea in our heads, he pleases. Unbelievers are unprepared for his lies and therefore believe them more easily.
He loves everyone equally, that's the reason He died for us all. But He makes some very definite promises to His Children that do not apply to the nonbelievers.
"And how, if I may ask, does one know where the right place to look is?"
There is no better place to learn about God than the Bible. That was the whole reason He gave it to us.
"Heaven has got to be a very small place if everyone who doesn’t believe every word written in the Bible aren’t Christians."
I never said salvation was based on believing every single word written in the Bible. Salvation is based on your faith in Christ, alone. End of story.
Salvation and Christianity are not synonymous. Someone can live their whole lives, never do one good thing, and then on their death bed receive Christ and go to Heaven. That's what the thief on the cross did.
But if you're going to call yourself a Christian, you cannot do so accurately unless you believe and are following the Bible.
"It probably would though. One thing is saying that you believe in God. It’s another matter entirely to actually believe in..."
I wasn't talking about believing. I meant actual effort. All they had to do was paint blood on the doorway to save their kids lives. If I were in that situation and I didn't believe, I think I would have done it anyway just to be safe, especially after the other 9 plagues.
But after all that, I would have believed. Those people were blatantly rejecting God, they killed their own kids.
"Why are you bringing abortion into it?"
It was an example of how parent's wrong choices affect their kids. Kill their kids. The same as their choosing to not put the blood over their doorway in Exodus.
In both cases, they are deceived and they make the choice that they want regardless of how it might affect the kids.
Chiara *♥☺Eat cheesecake.....NOW☺♥* wrote: "Also, if God is all good, all loving, all forgiving and immortal- then why didn't he make us immortal like him- in his own image, as he made us?..."We are not like God. That was Satan's sin that got him cast out of Heaven, believing he was like God.
No, we are merely made in His image. Sort of the idea of an action figure, it may be a very good replication of the actual person, but it's not really like the person at all. It only sort of looks like the person.
"Adam and Eve sinned, but he's all forgiving?"
That goes along with one of the questions I'll answer in a bit.
"And however many millions of years have passed?"
6,000, not millions.
And God is not subject to limitations of time. "A day is with the Lord as a thousand years". Millions of years is really not that long to God.
And anyway, it's not like we were just a random idea that God had one day, to create the universe and man. It was a plan. A perfect plan, for which God knew just the way it all had to work out.
We are His masterpiece. Like a book is an author's masterpiece. They don't just skip to the end because it's easier and quicker. Things have to happen first. Things had to happen for God to demonstrate His love for us in such ways.
We will be made immortal, though. God's gift is eternal life.
Ok, here we go, I think it's gonna take a few posts:1) If god is all-knowing, why did he create humans and leave Lucifer in heaven if he knew that both would betray him?
God is all-knowing. But he's not a tyrant. He created the angels and us humans knowing we would sin. Knowing we would screw up and in alot of cases, knowing we would betray Him.
He loved us anyway.
God did not want to create a bunch of robots, He wanted to create beings that would love Him because they chose to. And to be able to choose something, you've got to be able to choose not to also.
Here's something to think about, God created us knowing every single thing that would ever happen. He knew what would happen today, he knows what will happen a thousand years from now. He knew when He created us that the cross was waiting. He loved us anyway.
Looking around today, I can't see alot of reason for creating us dirty rotten sinners. Especially when you think about things like abortion and how it's become socially acceptable to murder your own child.
But if your asking for the reason why He loves us or why He chose to create us, I have no idea. One of God's characteristics is that He is incomprehensible.
Romans 11:34 - For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor?
Humanly speaking, it doesn't make alot of sense to us. We do not handle rejection well. We kind of say, fine if someone doesn't love me, I won't love them either. Humans are petty alot of the time and essentially selfish. But God is perfect and longsuffering.
He loved us enough to give us a chance. Many times He gives us chance after chance after chance.
He knew about all the ones that would reject Him, but He also knew about all the ones who would not reject Him.
http://www.gotquestions.org/if-God-kn...
This still doesn't really answer why - as I said, some things we cannot know the reasons for - but it gives more insight into the issue.
I'll answer 2 and 9 together.
2) What exactly is a soul?
9) What's the difference between a soul and a spirit?
These are very good questions. Ones that I was sure I had down pat. But after trying to find a simple explanation to give you, I realized that I was a little mixed up myself. I answered this question somewhere before and I believe now that I gave an incorrect - or at least incomplete - answer. (So if someone's seen that one before, please disregard it).
It's a little confusing if you start looking at all the scripture on the soul and spirit, actually, because these words were translated from various Greek and Hebrew words and sometimes the definitions overlap. These languages are much more specific than English. The definitions sometimes overlap because they are connected. Your spirit is sort of part of your soul. Just like your mind is part of your soul. But they are distinct.
The soul is the very essence of a person. The unique part of them responsible for intellect, reason, desire, will, and personality. The part that we have to willingly give to God.
The spirit is the center of our existence. The part of us that relates to God, something we are unable to do unless we have given him our soul. When we do, our spirit is reborn or "born again"
John 3:5&6 - Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
1 Peter 1:23 - Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever
The spirit is what sets us apart from the animals.
Once you're saved, your spirit and soul are in constant conflict. Because even though you've given your soul to God, He doesn't control it. You still do. And our desires are still mainly self-centered. Your soul may desire to do something wrong, but it's your spirit that is putting up the fight.
And it's not just about knowing right from wrong, most people know right from wrong, whether they're Christians or not. That's something we are taught, that is about logic, not anything spiritual.
It's about wanting to do what you want to do vs wanting to do what God wants you to do. Sometimes it's nothing you've been taught that is wrong, but God gives you the feeling that it's wrong without having been taught already.
We know that there are three parts to man - Body, soul, and spirit.
1 Thessalonians 5:23 - And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
When man sinned, all three parts had to die, just not all at the same time.
Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Genesis 2:17 - But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
So we know that the day that Adam and Eve sinned, they died. But their bodies didn't die just then. Adam lived to be 930 years old or something. And they still had their personalities, so their souls didn't die then either. The part that died was their spirit. They lost fellowship with God.
We are all born sinners, therefore we are all born spiritually dead. We cannot have communion with God and we cannot understand the things of God because they are spiritual.
2 Corinthians 2:14 - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
John 4:24 - God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
But that's only the death of one of the three parts that make up man. As sinners, all three parts have to die, that is our consequence of sin. We know that the body dies eventually, the only question is when.
That leaves the soul. The soul is the part that God saves when we put our faith in Him. The part that Jesus died for. The soul is what the whole battle is about, it's the only part of you that does not have to die.
The death of the soul, is an eternity in Hell. Something we do not have to go through, thanks to the grace of God.
3) If god is willing to prevent evil, but not able, then isn't he not omnipotent? But if he is able and isn't willing, then isn't he malevolent? If he's both able and willing, then why doesn't he get rid of evil?
Well, we know that God is both good and omnipotent.
Good:
1 John 1:5 - ...God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
Psalm 31:19 - How great is thy goodness...
Psalm 100:5 - For the LORD is good...
Psalm 34:8 - O taste and see that the LORD is good...
*Exodus 33:18-19, Psalm 16:2 27:13 86:5, Nehemiah 9:35
Omnipotent:
Genesis 18:14 - Is any thing too hard for the LORD?...
Luke 1:37 - For with God nothing shall be impossible.
Jeremiah 32:17 - Ah Lord God! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:
Psalm 115:3 - But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
2 Corinthians 6:18, Job 1:12 & 2:6 & 42:2, Exodus 9:3-6 &23-26, Psalm 107:25-29, Jonah 1:17, Daniel 3:22-25
He is also sovereign, holy, just, and righteous.
We also know that God loves every single person who's ever lived or ever will live.
1 John 4:16 - And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
1 John 3:16 - Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us:...
John 15:13, 3:16, Romans 5:8, Ephesians 2:4, John 15:9-10
The fact that He is love(He literally personifies it) and the fact that He is good, contradict the idea that He could possibly be malevolent.
But if that's not convincing enough:
2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
So, the question is then, why does God allow evil if he is able to prevent it and does not have any desire for it? A good question. And one I'm not sure I will be able to give a perfect answer to, to be quite honest. It's something that I wonder about alot, actually. It's easy to think 'God, why don't you just get rid of all the evil people in the world?' But then, there wouldn't be any people in the world, because we are all 'evil' by God's standard. We are all born sinners.
This is a much better answer than one I could give, I think:
http://www.gotquestions.org/God-allow...
4) Why didn't god just get rid of satan instead of keeping him around where he could easily corrupt people's minds?Another good question, and one for which I can offer you no definite answer. There is no possible way to understand why God chooses act or not act a specific way, unless He has given the reasons in the Bible. And as of yet, I haven't seen anywhere in the Bible where He gives His reasoning for allowing Satan to exist.
Whenever you ask why of something that is not clearly given in the Bible, you may get some very good answers, but you will never get one that is without a doubt, 100% accurate. You will only get speculation - sometimes very good speculation - based on the things we do know about God.
God never promised to give us all the answers. He gave us what we need to know. And some things, although we may want to know, we do not need to. He may allow us to know all of these things and more in Heaven, but we will still never know everything there is to know. We will never be like God and He is the only one who is omniscient.
So here's what we know:
God created the angels(Psalm 148:2&5, Colossians 1:16). Satan was an angel before he rebelled against God(Ezekiel 28:14-15, 2 Corinthians 11:14). And God created people(Genesis 1:27).
God created both angels and people with a free will - the ability to choose to love and serve Him or not. And to have a free will, as I've already said, you've got to be able to reject Him as well. Otherwise there's no choice to be made.
Satan chose to sin and was cast out of Heaven. But he did not go alone, he took one third of the angels of Heaven with him - now known as demons.
But I think to understand who Satan is, we've got to look at what angels really are like. Most people have a picture in their head of what angels are, but they might not really know alot about them. (I won't give all the scripture to support everything at the moment. I will if you ask for it, but I'm just going to focus on the facts right now.)
The word 'angel' means 'messenger'.
Angels are usually described in large numbers (twenty thousand, twelve legions, innumerable company, etc.) - basically, there are ALOT of them.
Angels have great speed - compared to lightning.
Have great strength, but are not omnipotent, only God is that. "The angel of the LORD...smote...an hundred fourscore and five thousand:" 2 Kings 19:35
Have great wisdom.
They are spirits. They don't have a body and cannot die.
They are created and have free wills, as I've already said.
There are 2 main types other than the ones who are simply described as 'angels' or the messengers. The Cherubim which are associated with the vindication of God's holiness. And the Seraphim which are associated with unceasing worship of God.
Satan was a cherub. The "anointed cherub" as Ezekiel 28:14 says. His sole purpose was to defend God's holiness. Ironic isn't it?
Now, about Satan.
His original name was Lucifer which means "the bright one" or "the shining one". He was the most beautiful angel in Heaven. He was "the Angel of Light" yet he is pure evil. This should be a great indicator of how he makes sin appear to us. He makes it look beautiful when, in reality, it is not.
He had a position of prestige in creation and a position of rule in Heaven. He was created perfectly (but with a free will) and told the first lie (he is called the father of lies). He believed his own lie (Isaiah 14:13-14) which lead to pride and then rebellion. (this is the same way he gets us to sin).
Satan is very powerful - as all angels are. He is able to do miracles and hide truth from people to keep them from believing. He is subtle, intelligent, and influential.
Now, here's where the speculation comes in.
God is love, but His love is not necessarily restricted to humans. I don't know of any verses off the top of my head to support this, but it's quite possible that God loves angels as much as He loves us.
He loves us despite our sin. Despite the fact that we may choose to hate him. Hard as it is to imagine, God even loved someone as wicked as Hitler.
He gives us chance after chance to accept His salvation - He is longsuffering. It's way too late for Satan. Angels make the choice and it's done - because they are strictly spirits. Satan made his choice when he rebelled in Heaven and condemned himself to Hell. But again God is longsuffering.
We all have a free will. We choose if we accept Christ or not. Perhaps God allows Satan to do the things he does as a real test for us. As a real choice to be made. Perhaps it's to test who we truly choose. Will we, despite all the riches and earthly temptations, choose God? Especially when the world says He does not exist?
We are not the only ones who have been tempted. Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness(Matthew 4:1-11), He isn't allowing Satan to do to us what He hasn't already allowed Satan to do to Him also.
I personally would guess that this is the reason that Satan has been allowed to walk the earth and deceive people, because there needs to be a choice - an attractive choice - for free will to be true free will.
But Satan's time is limited, as is his power. He cannot touch Christians without God's allowance and he will be cast into the lake of fire for eternity. It's just a question of how longsuffering God is at this point. How much longer will He allow the world to continue the way it's going? His love and faithfulness have no end, but His tolerance does.
5) If the world is so screwed up right now, then why doesn't god destroy it again to give people a fresh start? We're only human, after all, and he can't expect us to not go corrupt.
He did before(the flood) and He will again. It's just a question of when. I personally believe it will be rather soon, there is alot going on in the world to indicate it. Plus, how much further from God can we get? Maybe I shouldn't ask....
But I have no idea why He hasn't set things in motion already, honestly. Perhaps He's giving a whole lot more people one last chance to accept Him. ("God is not willing that any should perish")
And I said "set things in motion" because, God isn't just going to destroy the world all of a sudden. Several things have to happen first. First on the list is the Rapture. That will be sudden. It will be catastrophic, humanly speaking - a bunch of people(christians) are just going to disappear into thin air. They'll disappear despite doing things like flying airplanes or driving 18 wheelers. It's going to be a terrifying event that I am thankful to say, I won't be around for.
And no, He is well aware that we are corrupt, but we don't "go corrupt" we are born that way. We are expected to become born again or born of the spirit (of the incorruptible - 1 Peter 1:23)
There will be a fresh start, after the Rapture, the Tribulation, the Millennial reign of Christ, and Armageddon. God is going to make a new earth. One that will be perfect forever.
6) If god is so perfect, why did he create something that was even capable of sinning? If he so powerful, how come adam and eve weren't immune to satan's taunts?
He is perfect. We are not. And again, we needed to be able to reject Him - be able to sin - to be able to accept Him truly of our own free will.
If we were not capable of sinning, we would have no choice in the matter. God gives a choice. He wants us to choose to love Him, not to be forced to.
7) Can demon servants of satan possess people, like in the Stephen King movies? (I know, stupid question, but it's just something I've been wondering)
Not a stupid question at all. Now, I can't really speak for alot of Stephen King's movies, I've only seen one and parts of a few others - horror's not really my thing. But Satan can do anything that God allows Him to do. And God allows him great freedom here on earth.
He can and has possessed people. We have accounts of it in scripture. And I'm 99.9999% positive that Hitler and tyrants like him were demon possessed. I only hesitate to say 100% sure, because I am not God and do not know everything. But I think it's a pretty safe assumption to make.
And in the future, there will be one individual who will be demon possessed. If he even has a soul at all, I'm a little unclear about that...The AntiChrist. He will make his appearance after the Rapture and lead many people to Satan. After the rapture, everyone will either accept his mark (666) or be put to death. If they accept his mark, they reject God, and the choice is made. They sentence themselves to Hell.
But yes, demon possession is extremely possible. And it's quite probable that it's happening at this very moment to many people.
But you're not necessarily going to see anything flashy or obviously evil like you would in a movie, because Satan is trying to deceive. It's not really subtle to make something appear evil without a doubt. It's much more likely that his type of possession takes the form of something like a cult leader - someone who might appear to be of God. Satan wants to draw people away from God. He wants it to look attractive. He most likely isn't going to do the excorsist type thing with the head revolving all the way around. Not that he couldn't, he probably could.
8) Why couldn't god just forgive us? Why did he have to send his son to die for us, just so that he could forgive us? If he's all-powerful, then why have to go through this big process if he could just forgive us without having his son go through so much pain?
God is...So many things - take a look at the other thread where I went through and listed all His characteristics - It's a long list.
He is love. He loved us enough to sacrifice His Son for us. But He is also Holy and Just. His holiness will not allow Him to be in the presence of sin. This is why we cannot just go to Heaven - because of our sinfulness. There can be no sin in Heaven because then it would not be Heaven. It would not be perfect.
Also, we are spiritually dead until we accept Him. We cannot go to a spiritual place if our spirit is dead.
God is just - our judge. What kind of a judge lets criminals go unpunished? Not a very good one. God is the most fair judge there could possibly be. He knows everything and He is impartial. He does not judge us because of who we are or what other good deeds we may have done, He judges us based on our crime, or our sin.
God said that the wages of sin is death. He cannot just rescind that or it would make Him a liar. He cannot just let us off the hook because it would make Him unjust.
There had to be payment. We either pay it ourselves or accept Christ's payment as our sacrifice. He's the only one who could have provided the atonement because He is the only one who is without sin. He covers our sin with His sinless blood. So that God no longer sees our sin, but Christ's sinlessness. Our sin is washed away by Christ's perfect blood.
And another thing, God knows absolutely everything. Including the best possible way things should be done. If there had been a better way, He would have chosen that way. There was no better way.
And God does "just forgive" us. But in order for Him to be able to forgive, we have to first ask for it. And to ask for it, we have to realize and admit that we need forgiveness. Admit that we are sinners in need of a Savior.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
We have the easy part, Christ took care of the hard part already.
10) Where is heaven and hell?This is going to be another speculation thing. The exact location of Heaven and Hell are not spelled out for us in the Bible.
The word "decend" is usually used to locate Hell, giving the impression that it is "down". In outer space, there is no down. Only on earth (or another planet) where we have gravity do directional terms like up and down apply. But God may have just given us those terms to help our limited understanding.
Ezekiel 31:16 - I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit:
Isaiah 5:14 - Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
Matthew 12:40 - For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Romans 10:6-7 - ...Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
These things seem to indicate that Hell is located in the center of the earth. But again, that's just speculation. We may not have all the information. Hell may be some sort of other dimension that, even if it were possible to get to the center of the earth, we would still not find it.
But that seems to be the indication anyway.
Heaven is a little more tricky, because all we really have is the word "ascend" in the Bible as being used to locate Heaven, but that could mean anything really. It could just be talking about the spiritual aspect of it.
God allowed John to glimpse Heaven. He describes it as "New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God".
"heaven" being "atmosphere" here.
This implies that it's somewhere in space and moving. But that again is only speculation, it's very possible that God only allowed John to see through the layers of dimensions and view Heaven.
Isaiah 57:15 - For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity,
Heaven is called "eternity". It is not subject to limitations of time or space. It may very well be all around us. Or possibly nowhere around us. We really don't know.
11) What does god look like? I know we're supposedly made in his image, but does that mean the old man with long white beard stereotype is true?
I highly doubt He is anything close to the stereotype. I highly doubt we can even imagine what He phisically looks like. He is a spirit and we were made in His image - spiritually.
John 4:24 - God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
He does not have a physical body. Who knows what a spirit looks like?
Our poor human eyes and minds are not even able to handle looking at Him because of our sin.
Exodus 33:20 - And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
There are a few places where we seem to have a little description but those are not necessarily the best description of Him, merely the best way that the men who were allowed to see Him could describe it.
Ezekiel 1:26-28 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it. And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about. As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.
Revelation 1:14-16 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
"Sorry if it's a burden. I'm just so curious and so lost as to which religion I should choose. Every single one has told me exactly what you and Sandy have been telling me. And I'm really just trying to find out which one is telling the truth."
Not at all. I actually enjoy when people ask me things like this. And not because I know all the answers - hardly! But because it makes me think. Makes me study the Bible and makes me learn something new, myself.
You can read/study the Bible 1,000x and on the 1,001st time, you will still learn new things.
I hope this was helpful.
Samantha wrote: "So basically people have misinterpreted the Lesser Jihad to mean that you have to actually seek out your enemies and destroy them. Since..."I was just looking on the internet, since I just saw something about Islam and decided to google the history of Islam - very interesting, I must say.
I found this excellent web site. It's very illuminating.
http://www.bibleprobe.com/muhammad.htm
Now, I still intend to do my own homework on the subject, but a few things in particular caught my attention and I thought I would share, since you said that person told you that the terrorists were misinterpreting the Quran.
[Surah 47:4 says:
Fa'idhā Laqītumu Al-Ladhīna Kafarū Fađarba Ar-Riqābi Ĥattaá 'Idhā 'Athkhantumūhum Fashuddū Al-Wathāqa Fa'immā Mannāan Ba`du Wa 'Immā Fidā'an Ĥattaá Tađa`a Al-Ĥarbu 'Awzārahā Dhālika Wa Law Yashā'u Allāhu Lāntaşara Minhum Wa Lakin Liyabluwa Ba`đakum Biba`đin Wa Al-Ladhīna Qutilū Fī Sabīli Allāhi Falan Yuđilla 'A`mālahum
which means
Therefore, WHEN YOU MEET THE UNBELIEVERS, SMITE AT THEIR NECKS; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.]
That doesn't sound like misinterpretation on the part of the terrorists. It sounds like they were following what the Quaran said exactly.
And as far as Islam being about peace:
"The word "Islam" does not mean "peace." Muslims who tell you that the word “Islam” means “peace” are lying to you. The word "Islam" is an Arabic word. The word for peace in Arabic is “solh,” and not Islam. Islam is derived from the root word “taslim,” which means submission or surrender."
"When a Muslim declares that Islam is a religion of peace, he/she is either ignorant of the Koran (Qur'an), or is deceitfully thinking of this "peace", as it extends only to those within the Muslim Community. The deceit is that they will not tell you exactly what they mean. According to the Qur'an: "Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah. Those who follow him are merciful to one another, but ruthless to unbelievers" Surah 48:29. "Kill the Mushrikun (unbelievers) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush..." Surah 9:5. Also see Surah 9:29: PICKTHAL: "Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture (Christians & Jews) as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.". Please note that there is not a single verse in the entire Christian Bible that contains this "open-ended", universal command to kill/or be ruthless to unbelievers."
Yeah, that doesn't really sound like self defense only, to me. More like seek and destroy.
And as far as what I was saying about needing to know about the leader of a specific religion to understand the core beliefs:
"Muhammad posed as an apostle of God. Yet his life is filled with lustfulness (12 marriages and sex with a child, slaves and concubines), rapes, warfare, conquests, and unmerciful butcheries."
That's just at a glance, I intend to do much further research into it. But Muhammad was nowhere near a holy man. And certainly not of God.
Never take someone's word on what the Bible or the Quran says. They may not know themselves or they may be lying or omitting. Do the research yourself.
I know the technical reason is that Adam and Eve sinned, but he's all forgiving? And however many millions of years have passed?what are you asking here?
I was carrying on asking why we're not immortal.
We will be made immortal, though. God's gift is eternal life. When though? And my initial point was- Adam and Eve were immortal, before they sinned. And he's all forgiving.
Chiara *♥☺Eat cheesecake.....NOW☺♥* wrote: "When though? And my initial point was- Adam and Eve were immortal, before they sinned. And he's all forgiving."Physically? Maybe they were, maybe they were not immortal. Once they sinned, they had to die, yes. But not every single person who's ever lived has actually died.
Enoch didn't.
Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
He never died. God took him straight to Heaven.
Neither did Elijah.
2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
And not everyone in the future (possibly the present) will die either. Jesus is going to come back and rapture the believers.
But yes, Adam and Eve did die. Because they sinned. Sin has consequences - death.
Perhaps they still would have died, but it just wouldn't have been in the sense we now know it. Perhaps it wouldn't be scary and unknown. Perhaps it would never be painful. Perhaps it would simply be like Elijah and Enoch.
Sin changed things.
Some of the other results from sin was that women would have pain in childbirth and men would have to work hard. That doesn't mean that childbirth and work wouldn't have existed anyway, but because of sin, they became hard and painful. And because of sin we have to die in the sense that we know it - scary, uncertain, and possibly very painful.
As I said before, God cannot just let us off the hook, because it would make Him unjust and it would still not take care of that sin. And there can be no sin in Heaven.
And as Sandy said, God offers forgiveness to those who ask for it.
I feel as if we're not communicating well here at allNo kidding. Besides, the rules state that you must not debate, so.
He loves everyone equally, that's the reason He died for us all. But He makes some very definite promises to His Children that do not apply to the nonbelievers.
That didn’t answer my question though. If on prays for an answer, why would God let Satan corrupt the answer for that person?
There is no better place to learn about God than the Bible. That was the whole reason He gave it to us.
Uh-huh. Yes, this brings us back to the people who don’t own a Bible. There are other ways to learn about God, you say. Then there must also be other ways to find him. I don’t believe I could’ve had a better place to find answers than I did.
But if you're going to call yourself a Christian, you cannot do so accurately unless you believe and are following the Bible.
You contradict yourself here. First you say that it only takes a person believing in Christ, then you say that they can only be Christians if they believe and follow the Bible.
But after all that, I would have believed. Those people were blatantly rejecting God, they killed their own kids.
You would’ve. But you think atheists today are as blind as they were back then, do you not? It’s an ultimatum: Do a I say or I’ll kill you; Believe in me or have you children murdered.
The same as their choosing to not put the blood over their doorway in Exodus.
But there isn’t an ultimatum in being pregnant. There are several choices, one of which is abortion. And the choice is yours, right from the beginning (so long as no one forces you to have sex).
Emma (Audere est facere) wrote: "If on prays for an answer, why would God let Satan corrupt the answer for that person?"You're trying to get a specific answer without me knowing the specifics. I do not know what you have or have not done. But I do know this, You have to come to God on His terms. There is only one way to God.
Just because you say a few words (ie. 'God are you real?') Does not mean He hears you. (Well, not in the sense of a prayer, anyway - of course He knows and hears everything).
God does not answer the prayers of those who are not His children. The only exception would be the prayer to become His child.
You can pray to God till the cows come home, but if you're not His child, it's not going to do you alot of good. You're not going to hear His voice or see answers from Him.
If someone who is not a Christian is praying and receiving answers, they are not from God.
As I said, Satan has great influence over people. He plants ideas and feelings in your mind. He's very very good at disguising himself and his intents.
Matthew 7:21-23
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
We come to God on His terms, or not at all.
"Uh-huh. Yes, this brings us back to the people who don’t own a Bible. There are other ways to learn about God, you say. Then there must also be other ways to find him."
There are other ways to know that God is real, yes. But to know about Him, takes knowing the Bible.
And yes, not everyone has a Bible. That is why we are commanded to "Go ye into all the world and teach the gospel"
God gives everyone the opportunity to know about Him even if you personally don't know about it. He gives everyone the opportunity to be saved.
"You contradict yourself here. First you say that it only takes a person believing in Christ, then you say that they can only be Christians if they believe and follow the Bible."
No, I said Christianity and Salvation are not synonymous.
Just because someone is on their way to Heaven, does not necessarily mean they are a Christian.
It doesn't mean they have to be a good person at all.
Once you're saved, that's it. Nothing can change that. You can choose to later completely forsake everything remotely Christian for the rest of your life and still go to Heaven. Or you can accept Christ on your death bed and never get the chance to live as a Christian.
A Christian is a follower of Christ. Of everything Christ taught.
To be a follower of Christ, you have know and believe what He taught.
Part of that -a really big part- is salvation through Him. But you can't neglect all that other stuff.
Salvation and Christianity are not the same thing, but one requires the other. You can go to Heaven without being a Christian, but to be a Christian, you have to be going to Heaven.
"But you think atheists today are as blind as they were back then, do you not? It’s an ultimatum: Do a I say or I’ll kill you; Believe in me or have you children murdered."
I do think atheists are blind, but the Egyptians weren't atheists and they weren't blind. They were in rebellion. They had their own false gods. The plagues were judgment. Most, if not all, of them sort of mocked an Egyptian god. God was showing His power over their false gods. Something that, if nothing else had been up to that point, should have been a wake up call.
The Egyptians rebelled by not doing what God said and were punished for their rebellion. It's not like they didn't know what to expect. They saw God do everything else He said He would. Why would the last plague be any different?
Yes, sometimes God did tell people to do something specific or die. He allows people a free will, but He also judges them according to their sins. He never promised to let sin go forever on earth unpunished.
There are many many examples in the Bible where God judged the wicked. There are also examples of God judging people who weren't necessarily 'wicked' in the same way. They disobeyed God and were judged.
God is Just. He always judges.
"But there isn’t an ultimatum in being pregnant. There are several choices, one of which is abortion."
It wasn't meant to be an exact same situation example. Merely one to show how parent's can choose to do something that unjustly kills their children.
Chiara *♥☺Eat cheesecake.....NOW☺♥* wrote: "When though? And my initial..."I missed the 'when' part of that before.
Basically, when we become a child of God, our spirit is reborn or "born again". It becomes immortal and your soul becomes immortal with it. Your soul is no longer destined for Hell(death), but Heaven(life).
When we die, our spirit and soul go to heaven and are immortal. At the rapture, Christ will raise our bodies and they will join our spirits and souls, but they will be remade. We will be given new, perfect, and immortal bodies in Heaven.
So, if you're a Christian here on earth, you sort of are immortal already, just not physically yet.
Samantha wrote: "No offense, but to be honest, this whole thing sounds like one big fairytale to me. No matter where I go, it's always the same story: accept my god, my god is great, my god loves you and always wi..."but it is so easy to get eternal glory just belive that jesus died for our sins and repent your sins it is easier said than done at first but once you let god in to your heart it is amazing
Kristen wrote: "Chiara *♥☺Eat cheesecake.....NOW☺♥* wrote: "When though? And my initial..."I missed the 'when' part of that before.
Basically, when we become a child of God, our spirit is reborn or "born again"..."
ok...
If someone really wants to find Him, God will make sure they do. He works in ALL kinds of ways.
As I said; I doubt that they have the time to find the truth. They don't know much about Christianity, own no source that could tell them more. And what about those people who live in the jungle, who doesn't even know what a phone is, much less Christ? Will they be judged for not believing?
And what does that have to do with going to Hell? Are you saying if someone breaks the commandments, they are going to Hell?
No, that is not what I'm saying. I know people break them all the time, I do it myself. But continuelly breaking them, with no regret and no intentions of trying to stop doing it? Yeah, I'd say that would be a free-ticket to hell. Or are you telling me that Hitler will go to heaven?
But isn't that what you're doing? Basing the qualifications of Heaven and Hell on your own logic and not what God says?
I'm basing it of on what I feel in my heart, and believe to be the truth.
Oh you would be surprised
Trust me, so would you.