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Cursing and the f-bomb question
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I did a guest post on this same subject. An aspiring writer had contacted me through my website, asking if bookstores reuqire a warning for books that involve cursing. I was surprised by the question to say the least. Of course bookstores don't require warnings, that would be censorship. As long as the stores and libraries put the books on the right shelves, that it's not a problem.From what I can tell, the use of curses is highly dependent on genre. For a horror novel set in modern times with hard-edged characters, not only is cursing acceptable, but it's also expected. The blood thirsty street fighter must, and will, drop the F bomb or else readers will be very disappointed.
For a romance novel, regardless of when it's set, generally the readers are turned off by cursing, especially if it's overused.
For YA or middle grade novels, cursing is a big fat NO.
So I told this aspiring author to just believe in the story. It's much more important to let the story flow naturally, regardless of cursing. If it's appropriate and fits with the story, then so be it.
On a side note, she was getting a bit ahead of herself. She hadn't finished the manuscript and already she was trying to decided how it should appear in bookstores. One step at a time ;)
So in all, I say, have cursing good time!
Hmm. My two cents would be do it as long as you don't over do it. I think readers would be okay with it, especially if they get to see the reactions of the people back in time. Even her own struggle to try to control (or not) her mouth to not stick out in this timeline. :P
I always thought cursing shows a lack of discipline in a character...It was Kurt Vonnegut who claims that the sweetest kindest people in the worlds are the worst killers. I always thought that people who were clean cut, polite, kind tend to be army or law enforcement types and are in a state of readiness to kill. I read an article that in the old West, cowboys are extremely polite to each other and go of the way to not jostle one another because of fear of getting into gunfights. I myself witness elaborate actions of courtesy and profound apologies between prisoners when they accidently bumped into each other when visiting prisons.
Most people curses nowadays to show how 'bad assed' or 'hardcore' when in reality, it usually the person who is a straight arrow and studious that tend to be disciplined enough to follow through with the hardest hit. They also are good teamplayers from their old days of high school footballs or basketball or in the service.
So, Patrick, in other words, it would be more true to fiction to have the characters curse? ;)
Yeah if you want the characters to be unbelievable and remind the reader that he or she is reading fiction. I like it if the fiction reflects the real world and human nature. I often thought Kurt Vonnegut, especially in SlaughterHouse Five, is a realistic writer even if his plot spins off into putting the narrator in some alien's civilization version of the zoo.
Horror fictions tend to go the other way especially when characters encountered rich characters who 'knows' top secret special forces who tend to resolve conflicts by firing automatic weapons and blowing up the monsters' hideout. Then one of them hollers 'Let's get the fuck out of here!' as a signature dialogue. Then they disappear into the forest. Ugh!
Yep, again, it just depends on so many things, genre being the first factor. Also Adult vs YA, etc, etc.I honestly don't think anyone could say exactly and precisely when it's appropriate and when it's not. It just depends on the story.
Some authors write that kind of mindless entertainment, lots of cursing and sex, and frankly, those stories tend to do very well commerically, even if they're not everypne's cup of tea.
Some readers prefer stories that are a bit deeper, go way beyond the superficial, including highly realistic characters. But such stories are not realistic in terms of surviving a commercial mass market, so often, we don't even hear about such rare and beautiful gems until long after the author has passed away. There are always exceptions of course, but it just happens and not something that can be counted on.
And then there are authors who manage to find a balance. Neil Gaiman, one of my personal favs, who wrote one of my all time favorite novels, American Gods. The story was a fantastic mythological world of pure fantasy but certainly very realistic characters. In that novel, Gaiman used *gasp and shock* the hard C word. And you know what? It worked. Perfectly. That novel has long since become a world wide best seller.
Anyway, enough rambling, since I do have a point :D
My point is, it will never matter. Ever. Believe in the story above all else, regardless of cursing. If a curse is within context of the story, then that's the way it is. If it's not appropriate, then just don't. Have the best time writing, and for the audience to have the best time reading :)
Thank you everyone for your great comments. Desirea's Escape has already been written and as I said, I love her character. And yes, Gloria, her vocabulary ends up being something she has to overcome in an effort to fit in to the 19th century. I've counted and the f-bomb is used 12 times, but twice it is used in the middle of a word. Truthfully I've gone over this manuscript numerous times and feel each and every one of the f-bombs fit.I've put in one of the para.below where the f-bomb comes up twice. This moment is when Desirea is frustrated by the Regency men who are suspicious of these two women who fell out of a hidden closet.
When Desirea saw London’s cheeks redden in embarrassment, her anger came to the surface. She stood up, and marched over to the big bear of a man, glaring up at him with hands on her hips. “Excuse me!” she huffed. “This may surprise you, dude. But I don’t give a flying fuck about you or your fucking establishment. This has been the worst day imaginable. And trust me; I’ve had many unimaginable days. I’m physically and mentally exhausted. And yet you stand there trying to accuse us of listening to some lame ass conversation that we have no interest in knowing. Surely you do not believe the entire universe revolves around you, do you, big guy?” She turned back to her friend London. “London, could you tell someone who understands, that I’m no longer interested in doing this photo-shoot. I no longer care how realistic they can make the damn scene. Besides,” she said with a wave toward the two men, the other had disappeared while she was unconscious, “they look ridiculous.”
So what do you think, this is the worst of her Vocabulary. Do you think those words in a historical romance will pull you out of the book?
only if it is dropped in excess too bleeping much --Every now and then the F bomb is a necessary reaction to events in the plot. in Desiraes case it might be a humorous part of the plot to drop that and a few S bombs and damns -- and see how the people of that time deal with her cussing. but if its every other effing word I give up.
I'm going to give my brutally honest opinion and feel free to ignore. In the context of that paragraph, the f-bombs stand out too much, to the point that yes, I do feel it would completely through off the reader for a historical romance. I'm sure this isn't your intention, or maybe it is, but the two f-bombs makes her sound completely tasteless and not a character I can sympathize with. That's just my two cents, again, feel free to ignore :)
I won't ignore your comment, Lily, this is the exact reason why I posted the question. I want to know if it pulls readers from the story. Thanks for your honesty.
Anytime, and best of luck with the story :)
LA, I had to go back and remind myself of your initial post -- that this is a modern woman dropped back in time. In that context, yeah, it works. And certainly, if we're reading the book, we won't need that reminder.I'm with whoever said having this heroine struggle with her potty mouth would be a great subplot.
I don't agree about the language being a sign of a weak character. I write about rockers. Musicians. You know. Rock and roll. The language is part of the subculture. The people who *don't* swear stand out like a sore thumb.
My only concern would be the chosen genre, Historical Romance, which is why I initial said it really does depend on genre. Readers of Historical Romance want an escape fantasy, taking them back to a specific era with lots of romance. To me, given the context of the posted paragraph and the description of the character, this isn't Historical Romance. It's more like a time traveler story that happens to involve some romance. Am I making sense? I hope so. Understanding who the audience would be for a specific genre is very important.But I'm not the author of this story, so it's not up to me :)
No, I think that's a valid point, Lily. Maybe we need to relabel this as Time Travel to Regency England.But man, that's a mouthful.
lol Sci-fi Romance might work better, and it covers things like time travel, then the summary could involve traveling to Regency England.LA, I really hope we're helping :D
Thanks so much for your comments. Yes, you are definitely helping. I posted this question on a few sites and people have asked questions of the genre. Perhaps if I explain, you ladies can suggest how to catagorize it. Desirea's Escape is book two in my Destiny Series. The first book, London's Quest should be released by April, with luck, and if my editor and formatter are available to do the work.
Anyway, the starlit Desirea is in England for a photo-shoot when she spots her stalker. London Burton comes to her rescue and hides Desirea from her stalker. But in the closet lies a portal that send the two ladies hurdling into the past. This scene is done in chapter one, the rest of the story takes place in Regency England. In Desirea's Escape, there is another character introduced and she has telepathic abilities, which then brings in paranormal elements. So this particular book crosses three different genres.
Should I put, time-travel, historical with paranormal elements? LOL, that's alot. I don't think I've ever read a book classified as a Sci-fi Romance (when I see Sci-fi I think future, not past). I guess I should figure this out before I publish the first book in this series. So now what do you think?
I've seen Sci-fi Romance on the Harlequin website, so it does exist.Time travel is classified as Sci-fi, or Fantasy, depending on how the time travel is done (machine or magical spell, etc).
Considering the added elements, personaly I would just categorize it as Fantasy and be done with it. The summary can show more, ie, time travel, romantic interest, wicked witches (lol I just threw that last one in there lol).
Fantasy, as a genre, can be a nice catch-all for a lot of elements. And bonus, you get to keep the F-bombs ;)
Well, now that you threw the wicked witches up there, I'm afraid I'm going to have to go with that one. Just love a good witch story, like the old Charmed Series.Thanks so much for your wonderful and helpful comments.
Has anybody read an Ellen Hopkins book? They are filled with cursing, and they are meant for YA. However, the cursing is for realism, and it doesn't bother me.
The only YA books I've read is Twilight Series, Four books of Harry Potter, and the Sookie Stackhouse Series, but I'm unsure if that's YA. I will have to read one of Ellen Hopkins books. Thanks so much for the suggestion.
Everything a character does in a story is there to tell the reader something about that character. If a character uses gutter language, that just means he's a character who uses gutter language. If the author wants a character like that in a story, then the language belongs. I don't like it but I know it's characterization, just like the cigarettes that so many bad guys in movies and TV are seen with.
Cursing, like sex and violence, can be gratuitous or not in a book. How successful it is depends on the author's level of craft and the needs of the story. The circumstances just might allow the application of all three.In certain historical or cultural settings, an author must use extreme care to avoid gratuitous or inappropriate cursing. My series is set in the Southern theater of the American Revolutionary War. The F-bomb is largely inappropriate there. I have to bend our modern concept of cursing to accommodate how people would have insulted each other or expressed displeasure/frustration.
Last month, I received help from a lady in Germany who does English-German and German-English translations. For my manuscript, I needed an 18th-century German to cuss out a British officer in German, along the lines of, "You have a head full of s**t!" I knew the translator wasn't going to come back with "s**thead" because that sounded way too modern. What she offered instead translates to, "You are too stupid to s**t in the privy!" This had a much better cultural cadence to it and gave an authentic flavor to my manuscript.
So whether you use the F-bomb or not, make sure that everything you're doing enhances the story.
Suzanne Adair
I love that. You're too stupid to s*** in the privy. That is one heck of a fabulous insult. We should bring that one back into everyday use.
Of course characters should speak the way they speak - dialogue is one of the best ways to define character. However, as a writer you have to be reasonable enough to understand that vulgar or profane language, as well as other potentially unsavory material, however integral to your material, is going to offend some of your readers. You can defend your choices by stating that the language is realistic, integral and necessary, but you can't tell your reader what they have to like or accept.I think that explicit material - violence, language, sex - can be a distraction, even when well done.
J, you can't please everyone. That is why it's important to keep your audience in mind -- even if you define audience as "Anyone who won't be offended by the language."
I posed this question because I knew I would receive different opinions. What offends one person may not offend another. My audience would be the historical romance readers, but Desirea's Quest will be classified as a Time-Travel. The reason I assume my target readers are in the historical genre is due to the fact that even though my herione is from the 21st century, beginning with chapter two the entire story is based in Regency England. I never see much swearing in the historicals I read, and yet I do in the contemporaries I've read. This book is a crossover.
To portray the spoiled starlit well, she needs to have the entitled attitude. Is swearing necessary to accomplish this? Probably not, but to portray her as a 21st century type Britany Spears and to do so realistically, I feel she needs to curse some. Desirea is twenty years old in this book, at twenty some people feel they have finally reached an age where they are entitled to swear. Don't laugh, I think it makes them feel older and cooler. The
story shows how Desirea's words will alienate her, and she knows she must change her vocabulary. As I said, she doesn't swear all the time, but at one point, in a fit of anger at the hero, she sits down and writes down phrases of cursing she often uses when angry and she substitutes these words to more proper insults for that time.
Here are a few quotes I've received from both sides of the coin regarding this question.
A Con of swearing. "Profanity is a small mind trying to express itself."
A Pro to swearing. "A reader who can't tolerate an occasional swear word in context is an illiterate in moralistic clothing."
Both great quotes, and both from the opposite sides of the spectrum.
Thanks for your comments.
24 and 25: This kind of cursing is so satisfying because it's creative and specific. The German lady BTW had a fun time developing the insult with some of her friends. She and I agreed that modern cursing in English *and* German is boring and generic.Suzanne Adair
I'd vote no on some sort of cute not quite fuck. No fricking please. That'll yank me out of a book faster than a page of profanity.If it's in character for her to curse like a dockhand then have her curse. It will probably turn some people off of the character. It will make others love her. Samantha on Sex in the City is certainly popular enough.
But, it should make her a pariah in Regency society. If the rest of the world around her reacts in an age appropriate manner, then it should be fine.
When to drop the F-bomb?Depends on your characters. My first published novel was about wwii marines and I didn't use the f-bomb once.
The novel I'm writing now is about present day marines. If I didn't use the f-bomb a half dozen times a page, I'd lose credibility. The characters wouldn't be believable.
So the question becomes-WHY are you dropping the f-bomb? What are you trying to say about your character?
I think that if you are clever enough you could create some dialogue that doesn't include the f-bomb in your scenes.
Daniel J. Norman
Hi Dan,What a great question-Why?
My 20 year old starlit is like a Lindsey Lohann or Britney Spears, like them, she got her start on the Disney channel. I don't believe these two celebs would say fiddle-sticks or shut the front door, when they feel themselves better served using an expletive like the f-word. Like your modern day marines, I want my portrayal of her character to be realistic. Sure I could do away with the swearing and come up with clever rejoinders to change the swearing, but that's not what my character would do, that is until she finds herself in the 19th century where women do not swear. Her vocabulary is something she must overcome, but I plan to go back through the manuscript to make sure the swearing isn't too much. Does my reasoning behind her words make sense? Thanks for your comment.
I guess I could see a Lindsey Lohannish character cursing in present day society and when she finds herself in the 19th century maybe once for the comedic value of how everyone reacts to her. I think it really depends on who the target audience is and why is it necessary to this character as to whether to continue to use it through the rest of the story.
LA-OK, this could be a lot of fun, what I'd do is have the swearing backfire on her somehow. I personally don't know if the 4 lettered adjectives we use today were around back then, or how they were use back then.
I don't know what the story is, but for an example pretend she is interested in the guy and they are getting along until she uses foul language-it doesn't even need to be modern day harsh, she could call someone an ass and that would totally turn off the guy and she'd have to clean it up right there.
I think you could have a lot of fun with it just watching her try to cope in 19th cent England with a 21 century LA vocabulary. For inspiration you could watch that Meg Ryan movie, Kate and Leopold.
Either way it sound like something fun to write-enjoy!
Hi Dan,Yes, that's exactly what I was going for and quite often I think it's comical. The herione does have to alter her ways as well as her language which made her character fun to write. At one point in the story she sits down and writes alternative words for the curse words she used to use. I love time travel movies and I have probably watched Kate and Leopold about a dozen times. Thanks for your wonderful comments and encouraging words. :)
while i agree with many of the thoughts and opinions expressed above about legitimate reasons to include R rated language in your writings or readings, i would be perfectly happy to read books with no profanity at all. if it can be avoided, it should be, IMO.
i've put down many books because the language was just ridiculously crude, profane, or flat-out unimaginative. my personal preference would be well-written dialogue that's actually a bit better than normal everyday vernacular. i would love to read more books where the status quo is a bit more witty, less gritty.
it's quite possible that this puts me in the minority, but either way, there's a big minority out there. run a search for "cleanreads" and you'll see that there're a lot of readers who prefer PG, especially for the YA genre.
I believe in realism in fiction. I feel that hundreds and hundreds of years ago people did curse in anger, in frustration and for effect, just as they do today. Certainly, the cursing phrases were flavored by their times. When writing a story I have my characters cursing if I feel the action calls for it.
I could handle once of twice using the word, and thenI would be turned off. I am the same way with movies.
To me, there is no need to use curse words a lot...
Cindi wrote: "I could handle once of twice using the word, and thenI would be turned off. I am the same way with movies.
To me, there is no need to use curse words a lot..."
I agree with you, if you want to read a book and there is a whole lot of cussing in it you just want to put it down.
I'm not bothered by the use of profanity if it serves some kind of purpose which sometimes it does, emphasis etc but sometimes its wholly gratuitous...as I found in Still Missing and it annoyed me no end, surely the author was capable of finding other more effective words to use. As a result I put that down for a while, really annoyed me. Every other word was an f in this, friggin that... no need!
I agree there is a point where the swearing becomes too much, truthfully I haven't read a book that offends me to such a degree that I had to put it down, at least not yet. I could see me doing so if it was filled with cursing, but I'm more likely to give up on the book if it's boring. Reading is so subjective. Thanks so much for commenting.
It depends on the character; however, too much swearing in your writing would turn off many readers. There are so many exciting words to express feelings in your writing. Using the right word can influence readers in a positive way.
L. A., I am learning that the right word(s) can be powerful in your writing. Like pictures, words can invoke your emotions. The same can be said of music. Words, music, pictures can invoke feelings. Remembrance and imagine are two of my favorite words.
My book is set in a TV station & beleive me people who work in the technical end of TV swear-a lot! Even when we are not mad. I've been in TV more than 30 years. In my story though most of the profanity is in a scene where some one cusses out a member of the hero's staff, and he sticks up for that person. So I do have cussing in the story, but yeah it is there for a reason. In real life, I think in the TV industry I think the pressure gets to us.
I'm still in the editing stages of Desirea's Escape, so the comments are helpful. Music is one of my passions and I agree music brings on memories and feelings. Actually my heroine in this story is also a singer, and music pops in her head often, which is brought on by a word or a phrase. She also has to overcome her tendency to curse (a bad habit she picked up when hanging around her father and his friends). Desirea works to make herself fit into her new surroundings, since she really has no choice, but she becomes a better person because of it. Although she doesn't swear often, the times she does curse I feel are necessary to portray her character correctly. Thank you for your comments.
I feel that it's alright to use the f-bomb... especially when that's apart of who the character is. The thing about your story that you've mentioned is that she's from modern day.. so it'd work out just fine if she does swear. Btw... story sounds like it'd be good. :D
Thanks Atarah,I just got the proof for the cover. Once I approve the paperback proof, it should be ready for release. The link to my cover is on my FB page. The person who designed it did a great job, I love how the clock is hinted in the background to show time travel. Thank you for commenting.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbi...
Of course, ladies never swore in Regency England, ah, I hate the word never, because I believe even the very best of lady’s had a reason to curse on occasion, I refuse to see it any other way. Anger can lead one to harsher words even if the word is as mild as damn, which brings me back to the biggest swear word of them all the F-bomb.
Does the f-word pull a reader out of a book? Are you personally offended if you see the f-word on the page? Perhaps this isn’t such an issue with contemporaries, but what if it’s found littered through the pages of a historical romance novel when the f-word is not expected?
This is the dilemma I’m facing on the writing front. I love Desirea’s character, she’s sassy, brave, and swears like a dockhand, but she’s great and I don’t want to change her. Her words are a part of who she is and her swearing has made for some very fun scenes. And yet I find myself wondering, should I change this one to frik, or should I substitute anther word altogether like the mild hell or damn. And what if hell or damn isn’t harsh enough. I’ve come to the conclusion that sometimes the f-word simply cannot be replaced or the power of the sentence disappears right along with it.
So what are your thoughts?
www.lahilden.com